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Tetsuhiko

Imperials will be the new Spiders (Predictions/Hopes)

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12 minutes ago, SirEuain said:

Moreover, whatever I may think of the Spider in-game, many Spider players have gone out of their way to support the community as a whole. My distaste for their favorite clan means absolutely nothing before that. 

I'm not sure how this is any more relevant than the other people who go out of there way to support communities?

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Just now, Desertspiral said:

I'm not sure how this is any more relevant than the other people who go out of there way to support communities?

The previously quoted part of your post was crossing a line between "I'm not sure the Spider work" and into comments about the Spider players. 

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6 minutes ago, SirEuain said:

The previously quoted part of your post was crossing a line between "I'm not sure the Spider work" and into comments about the Spider players. 

I'm not sure what lens you're choosing to look through, and I don't agree with your assessment.  

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I didn't get that feeling at all @SirEuain. The existence of the Spider has always been a huge point of contention in L5R. So much that in the AEG plotline, the community tried to get it removed entirely. I understand why fans of the Spider would be upset at the constant feeling of unwelcomeness, but the solution is certainly not to create the same exact scenario that upset so many people on both sides before. But let's face it. If your enjoyment of the setting hinges on the existence of one of eight or nine major factions, maybe you don't enjoy the setting that much. Personally, I have a favorite clan, yes, but I like all of them in some capacity. I could see myself rooting for them and playing them if the situation was right. Anecdotal, I know, but often when I interact with Spider players, they don't seem to care much for the rest of the setting... and maybe if you don't like the setting, you should find another thing to be a fan of that you like more. Why torture yourself trying to enjoy such a narrow slice of a thing?

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9 minutes ago, Desertspiral said:

I'm not sure what lens you're choosing to look through, and I don't agree with your assessment.  

You really don't see any problem with this?

 

44 minutes ago, Desertspiral said:

Additionally the whole premise of this thread is dumb.  Spider clan was not good for the story, not good for the game and I feel contributed massively to the world of L5r going to crap, and if FFG L5r is just going to be another 'evil spiky bits' wet dream then I have no interest in contributing towards it.  

You don't think it's crossing a line to say it's dumb to want the Spider back, or to refer to them as an "'evil spiky bits' wet dream?"

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I think sometimes Spider is used as a shorthand for 'Samurai inside Rokugan secretly serving Fu Leng/being tainted and evil.' That is always a part of the setting and is good and appropriate. I also think former spider players can get behind that.

But the Spider Clan as a recognized major clan that serves Fu Leng and is part of Rokugani society: that is not happening again. And rightfully so.

i am very excited about the imperial family being corrupted by Jigoku. It can provide a very good justification for everything descending into an entertaining level of destruction and badness. It also fits with the original storyline, but can potentially develop in a more prolonged and interesting way. I would like to see the imperial family actively causing trouble, not just poisoned/totally possessed. 

Edited by Eugene Earnshaw

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40 minutes ago, player2636234 said:

the solution is certainly not to create the same exact scenario that upset so many people on both sides before. But let's face it. If your enjoyment of the setting hinges on the existence of one of eight or nine major factions, maybe you don't enjoy the setting that much

a) no one is saying that the exact same scenario should happen again. you've obviously not read this thread

b) you don't get to tell me if or how to enjoy l5r. ESPECIALLY not "if it hinges on the existence of eight or nine major factions" since this literally describes an ENORMOUS swathe of the fanbase. if they removed any of the great clans like lion or dragon the traditionalist fans would RIOT. so don't act like we're somehow being unreasonable for wanting our clan back. 

you hate the spider. duly noted. no one is making you read this theorycrafting thread. go somewhere else if it hurts your soul so much. this isn't for you. 

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12 minutes ago, cielago said:

b) you don't get to tell me if or how to enjoy l5r. ESPECIALLY not "if it hinges on the existence of eight or nine major factions" since this literally describes an ENORMOUS swathe of the fanbase. if they removed any of the great clans like lion or dragon the traditionalist fans would RIOT. so don't act like we're somehow being unreasonable for wanting our clan back. 

I mean, I doubt it. First let me say that I like the Lion a lot. They fill a niche that no other clan really fills, but if they got nuked, it would still be Rokugan. A lesser Rokugan, in my eyes, but Rokugan. Second, I think this is a great conversation to have because a lot of non-Spider fans of the setting feel like Spider don't fill a niche.

Spider interact with Jigoku, which is a setting element that specifically exists to threaten and destroy the setting as we know it, which by default makes them opposed to any forces that would seek to continue the setting as we know it. This makes the Spider basically always the villains. It's hard to contrive a situation where they are cast in a positive light, because no matter how heroic they act or how many good deeds they do, they are steeped in the literal anathema of the setting (and let's be honest, do you really think Spider have any moral compunction with tainting children? Literally damning their souls and brainwashing them at the same time?).

And sure, it's fun for the villains to win sometimes (because when the heroes always win it gets boring), but there's two problems with Spider filling this role. The first is that in a Rokugan without the Spider, it's much easier for any clan to be the villains. What is great about Bushido is often how vague it is, and how often it can conflict with itself. A character who is a hero in one arc can just as easily be portrayed as a villain in another without changing anything about them. Rokugan doesn't need villains in the Shadowlands or the Spider or gaijin to tell stories that are interesting, fun, and get everyone involved. Second, because they draw so much power from a plot device that ends the setting, what incentive do non-hardcore Spider fans have to root for them? They are polarizing due to their association with Jigoku. Their existence as a protagonist faction is divisive because the taint, handled with the respect it deserves, can very easily snowball into destroying everything. Imagine, if you would, a comic book company that printed 7 lines of books. Imagine if they stated that if one of their lines outsold the rest they would stop printing comic books entirely. Imagine how that would be received by the fans of the other six. Even if the Spider had some narrative that makes them compelling to non-diehards, the threat they pose forces hostility.

In my mind, the only way to incorporate the Spider is to divorce it from the taint, or defang the taint... and then they sorta just fill the same role as the Scorpion. By and large, honorless bastards who rely on technicalities and tricks to stay out of striking range of everyone who hates them, and I say that as someone who's favorite clan is the Scorpion.

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25 minutes ago, player2636234 said:

I mean, I doubt it.

Considering how the Dragon fan base (Dragon is just used as an easy example, I could have found examples in probably any of the 7 original great clan) rioted for things far less important than having their clans destroyed (see HDM or Khan's march), I'm pretty sure Cielago is correct on the reaction on any of the original Great Clans' destruction.

Edited by KerenRhys

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22 minutes ago, player2636234 said:

they sorta just fill the same role as the Scorpion.

If Fu Leng were to be remeeded, no Jigoku ties blah blah, and get a Great Clan in Rokugan, that clan should reflect their founding Kami. And Fu Leng is... er... the second best at nearly everything except patience and bravery? He had knowledge of the Nothing and then ties with Jigoku so... role is to be some kind of hunter of those two? Kind of a Scorpion but against those threats? Man, I simply don't know what kind of role a clean "Spider" could have. Mantis already have monopoly in Pirates.:P

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30 minutes ago, player2636234 said:

.........because a lot of non-Spider fans of the setting feel like Spider don't fill a niche.

Then proceeds to list the niche that Spider fills all while saying that they aren't neded to fill that role......

WTFuLeng

You're essentially saying the only way they could work is to do what AEG did which is the very thing people are so upset about over the Spider.....including Spider players.

As a dedicated Shadowlands player and someone who thinks Fu Leng got a raw deal in all this, I was glad to see the AEG story end with Spider in top and the bad guys in charge of things.  While I don't necessarily agree with the path that AEG took to get there, to me it was somewhat rewarding to see Fu Leng triumph in the end.

 

Edited by Ishi Tonu

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1 hour ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Then proceeds to list the niche that Spider fills all while saying that they aren't neded to fill that role......

WTFuLeng

You're essentially saying the only way they could work is to do what AEG did which is the very thing people are so upset about over the Spider.....including Spider players.

As a dedicated Shadowlands player and someone who thinks Fu Leng got a raw deal in all this, I was glad to see the AEG story end with Spider in top and the bad guys in charge of things.  While I don't necessarily agree with the path that AEG took to get there, to me it was somewhat rewarding to see Fu Leng triumph in the end.

 

Fu Leng didn't triumph.  He was dead by that point.

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7 minutes ago, Laurence J Sinclair said:

Fu Leng didn't triumph.  He was dead by that point.

Bestowing his power up in his most loyal follower who then leveraged the use of that power to save the empire in exchange for major clan status which lead to Spider taking power in the end.............I call that a win.

Now this time FFG can simply right that wrong by having Fu Lang actually be able to enjoy his victory :)

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I want to clarify my original post. I DO NOT want a repeat of AEG L5R. I DO NOT want a Scorpion Clan Coup, I DO NOT want a Destroyer War or a Four Winds. I DO NOT want a Oblivion's Gate and I DO NOT want a Spider Clan.

However, I loved the Spider Clan (especially at the beginning. Stories were pretty much subpar for every clans anyway at the end), and as such I want similar stories. I want strong villains (with supernatural corruption or not), and I want them to look as badass as possible. That's what I'm hoping with Shahai and Imperial-heir-that-used-to-be-Daigotsu-in-another-timeline. If we end up with the same Spider Clan, I'll be as disappointed than if Shoju ends up doing yet another Clan Coup or if the Lying Darkness corrupts Hitomi once again.

 

I want things to be different this time, but I want the story team to throw me a bone once in a while. And namedropping Shahai and her having a chance to meet Daigotsu, fall in love and corrupt a good chunk of the Hidden Guard just sounds awesome, regardless of the final outcome (death, usurpation, etc.)

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12 minutes ago, Tetsuhiko said:

I want to clarify my original post. I DO NOT want a repeat of AEG L5R. I DO NOT want a Scorpion Clan Coup, I DO NOT want a Destroyer War or a Four Winds. I DO NOT want a Oblivion's Gate and I DO NOT want a Spider Clan.

However, I loved the Spider Clan (especially at the beginning. Stories were pretty much subpar for every clans anyway at the end), and as such I want similar stories. I want strong villains (with supernatural corruption or not), and I want them to look as badass as possible. That's what I'm hoping with Shahai and Imperial-heir-that-used-to-be-Daigotsu-in-another-timeline. If we end up with the same Spider Clan, I'll be as disappointed than if Shoju ends up doing yet another Clan Coup or if the Lying Darkness corrupts Hitomi once again.

 

I want things to be different this time, but I want the story team to throw me a bone once in a while. And namedropping Shahai and her having a chance to meet Daigotsu, fall in love and corrupt a good chunk of the Hidden Guard just sounds awesome, regardless of the final outcome (death, usurpation, etc.)

Agreed.

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Maybe using "Nightmare Clan" as a term would actually help these discussions. Because when people say "Spider Clan," I go first to the Great Clan Spider, with all the associated WTF setting-breaking baggage that idea carried. And then, when I look past that, I go to the organized system of infiltrators worming their way into the Empire, which is less setting-breaking but also difficult to sustain as an ongoing presence (since they were doing that as part of a plan with a clear end-goal). Some people arguing for their inclusion seem to want one of those versions back, but others appear to want something else (definition of that "something" varying from player to player) that will represent the themes of corruption etc, without assuming all the backstory and preconditions of the Spider as they were before -- and then when those latter people say "Spider Clan," they run into pushback because the term is associated with a very specific story.

I don't actually expect "Nightmare Clan" to take off as terminology, but it would at least help dump the weight of old canon and make it clear when someone's talking about something new.

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3 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Bestowing his power up in his most loyal follower who then leveraged the use of that power to save the empire in exchange for major clan status which lead to Spider taking power in the end.............I call that a win.

Now this time FFG can simply right that wrong by having Fu Lang actually be able to enjoy his victory :)

Jigoku won, not poor corrupted Fu Leng.

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3 hours ago, Tetsuhiko said:

I want to clarify my original post. I DO NOT want a repeat of AEG L5R. I DO NOT want a Scorpion Clan Coup, I DO NOT want a Destroyer War or a Four Winds. I DO NOT want a Oblivion's Gate and I DO NOT want a Spider Clan.

However, I loved the Spider Clan (especially at the beginning. Stories were pretty much subpar for every clans anyway at the end), and as such I want similar stories. I want strong villains (with supernatural corruption or not), and I want them to look as badass as possible. That's what I'm hoping with Shahai and Imperial-heir-that-used-to-be-Daigotsu-in-another-timeline. If we end up with the same Spider Clan, I'll be as disappointed than if Shoju ends up doing yet another Clan Coup or if the Lying Darkness corrupts Hitomi once again.

 

I want things to be different this time, but I want the story team to throw me a bone once in a while. And namedropping Shahai and her having a chance to meet Daigotsu, fall in love and corrupt a good chunk of the Hidden Guard just sounds awesome, regardless of the final outcome (death, usurpation, etc.)

The biggest problem with a faction like the Shadowlands/Spider is you have 7 or 8 other factions that see you as a threat. 7/8 versus 1 doesn't bode well to anyone in a story driven game, regardless of the circumstance. 

That's why I'd rather see more antagonists rather than villains in the game in an effort to get more balanced or conflicting sides. We need to get more situations where the clans have multiple, plausible options rather than the typical ones we usually saw numerous times in the story. Maybe this time, there's some twist to the Kami and the Clan Wars (if they happen) and happen to have three, equally viable options for the clans rather than beat up the bad guy/usurper or we are all destroyed. 

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