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Tetsuhiko

Imperials will be the new Spiders (Predictions/Hopes)

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As long as they don't take over and replace the Sparrow this time.

The Spider only became a thing right around when I left the game (for unrelated reasons.) But I read up on the lore after that and honestly I just found myself constantly rolling my eyes.

If FFG are going to do Spider well they've got their work cut out for them. I remain cautiously optimistic, however. Glad to see Shahai back.

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4 hours ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

No argument here.??

I looked for any quotables regarding when emperor retires and I've come up blank. So, I'm probably wrong in my initial thinking re: gempukku/abdication.

However I still believe retired emperor is more common than dead emperor when it comes to crowning a new one. 

Oh, sure. I have no problem with the idea that the emperor often retires rather than dying in harness.

 

4 hours ago, SirEuain said:

No offense, but the Kolat weren't handled well, either. On average, once every five years or so players could do something to the Kolat, while Kolat corruption (like all forms of corruption) came and went on the whims of AEG. When the Scorpion were finally allowed to attack the Kolat, the Kolat had their stronghold sacked, their most powerful artifact seized, and a third of their leadership slaughtered, and all it amounted to in the story was that the Kolat kept going and the Scorpion drooled all over themselves when dealing with the Oni's Eye.

I never even found the concept of the Kolat that interesting, to be honest.

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45 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

I never even found the concept of the Kolat that interesting, to be honest.

Ironically I find the concept of Kolat extremely interesting, but with tattooed monks, blood speakers, tainted crab, shadow lost scorpion ect the Kolat always seemed too tame.  I'm hoping the current story focus on Meishodo and Shahai leads to a better Kolat plot using foreign gods to supplant the Kami to shake things up rather than the SCC or just more blood speakers and maho.  imo majo and blood speakers are a bit over done and dry at this point.

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Weren't they started because they were one of the CCG's creator's NPCs in his D&D game? The players thought they were SO cool so he brought them into the card game?

 

****, I wish I could remember where this came up at before...brain, don't, fail me now brain don't fail me now!

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1 hour ago, Suzume Tomonori said:

I'll be honest, after all my years playing the CCG and RPG, I still don't have a clear understanding of what the Kolat really are, other than Bad and employing assassins.

The general gist of the Kolat is actually pretty cool.  idk if you've read any Neil Gaiman books, specifically American Gods (which was recently made into a series) but the concept of the Kolat kinda plays with the same concepts of NG's story.  Basically Gods (Kami) get their power largely from the worship of their followers.  Consider it a type of "name magic" where the more people who pray to a certain name gives that name more power.  Gods are the embodiment of that name.  When the Kami fell to earth they started running things, but it wasn't like Men weren't doing just fine on their own.  They had cities, culture, and even magic without the Kami.  Some of the men resented the Kami taking over so they formed a small coalition of people who were for the disempowerment of the Kami, and the restoration of the power of man.

They weren't able to do much at first, but they knew they had to keep their little band a secret.  When the Kirin clan left Rokugan they had already begun networking beyond the boarders themselves.  As the Unicorn traveled out the Qolat (Kolat) begun trapping them.  They set up encounters, events, trades and more to break into the Kirin clan.  Shinjo became less powerful from their efforts to steer the clan away from the Kami worship to a new name magic.  She knew it was weakening her but the allies that the Qolat had formed between the Kirin and the people around them, and being powerless without any home, prevented her from taking any stand.  The Kolat in Rokugan kept tabs between themselves and the Kirin through the entire ordeal with The Oni's Eye (basically LotR Palantir)

When the Kirin came back they had not just moved entirely away from Shinjo's power, but the clan did not even bear the Kirin.  They were Unicorn.  A success for Kolat standards as they proved the Kami were not needed to run things.  Their ultimate goal was to be rid of all Kami.  They had also invaded the other clans, but not nearly to the same amount of success.

So that is the concept - and I like it.  What happened with it?  eh... not enough...  but I think its because Rokugan had too many villains and could never make up their mind who to focus on lol.  Shadowlands, Iuchiban, Bloodspeakers, Spider clan, Shadow, Shadowed Tower, dark tattoos, and Scorpion each with their hero counterpart, the Kolat could never really take on all of Rokugan without all of Rokugan just wiping them out in a day...  They weren't really that powerful themselves, just low-fantasy atheists in a world of Gods and magic.

Edited by shosuko

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12 minutes ago, shosuko said:

The general gist of the Kolat is actually pretty cool.

Not really. A pack of dystheists who never do anything is not a good sell.

 

They were a bunch of guys annoyed that the Kami were running things because they wanted to run things. In their quest to free mankind from the domination of the fallen Kami, they resorted to personality-rewriting brainwashing, assassination, and a bunch of other nasty tricks... sometimes. Despite which, they spent most of their history as a philosophy club that did nothing.

When they DID pop up and do stuff (slinging crystal weaponry against the suddenly-always-been-there servants of the Lying Darkness) they died in heaps.

The Kolat can maybe be serviceable as a one-off adversary. As an enduring antagonist, they're the very definition of pathetic.

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2 hours ago, shosuko said:

Ironically I find the concept of Kolat extremely interesting, but with tattooed monks, blood speakers, tainted crab, shadow lost scorpion ect the Kolat always seemed too tame.  I'm hoping the current story focus on Meishodo and Shahai leads to a better Kolat plot using foreign gods to supplant the Kami to shake things up rather than the SCC or just more blood speakers and maho.  imo majo and blood speakers are a bit over done and dry at this point.

Kolat was the Unicorn thing as much as maho was a Phoenix thing. Meishodo was of the kolat tools. As many Unicorn things back then, largely ignored because the Unicorn was the uncool Clan or something. :P

1 hour ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Not really. A pack of dystheists who never do anything is not a good sell.

It's not the kolat's fault but of those who write/design. The kolat could have been a "Kokujin" but we only got a Yokatsu. It's true that with so many "threats", it's difficult to use all of them properly. That doesn't mean they cannot be there and be well used with some effort. A well placed kolat infiltration leading to open rebellion wouldn't be a silly thing to witness. No need for shadowlands taint to have interclan warfare, right? 

For all we know, it's the kolat who are going use Jinn through meishodo to bring a dark tide over Rokugan.:huh:

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7 hours ago, Isawa Kioshi said:

Weren't they started because they were one of the CCG's creator's NPCs in his D&D game? The players thought they were SO cool so he brought them into the card game?

 

****, I wish I could remember where this came up at before...brain, don't, fail me now brain don't fail me now!

That was Warlord. Trust me ;) 

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6 hours ago, Wintersong said:

For all we know, it's the kolat who are going use Jinn through meishodo to bring a dark tide over Rokugan.:huh:

That's actually what I'm hoping for - but I'm always wrong on these things, so I wouldn't bet on it.

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4 hours ago, Wintersong said:

It's not the kolat's fault but of those who write/design. The kolat could have been a "Kokujin" but we only got a Yokatsu. It's true that with so many "threats", it's difficult to use all of them properly. That doesn't mean they cannot be there and be well used with some effort. A well placed kolat infiltration leading to open rebellion wouldn't be a silly thing to witness. No need for shadowlands taint to have interclan warfare, right? 

For all we know, it's the kolat who are going use Jinn through meishodo to bring a dark tide over Rokugan.:huh:

Frankly, Kokujin overstayed his welcome, too -- from being a lesser villain in Hidden Emperor, to using the Anvil of Despair, to making his own monks, to being a superduper god wannabe... essentially, IMO a character (especially a villain) has a shelf life only so long as it's plausible a clan's worth of people didn't gather specifically to smack them down. Would that, say, Omoni wasn't unceremoniously dropped instead. 

In absolute terms, from player perspective and before story got added on, Kolat were originally a yakuza parallel, made explicit in early cards showing oyabun and Kage posturing. They eventually transitioned into an RPG villain group, and an early villain in the Hidden Emperor arc. It wasn't until the Kolat were exposed by the Scorpion and Shinjo that things got ridiculous -- if a group relies on secrecy to survive, and has that secrecy compromised, it's hard to buy that they can get it back. 

Ironically, this was also why Iuchiban could have worked as a big bad. The Bloodspeakers were always around in the background, but didn't really come to the forefront until his return. Sadly, he was wasted on propping up Daigotsu.

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To be fair the reason the Kolat didn't get wiped out is because they're spread too far apart and dont make it obvious that they are Kolat  (the Master's likely sent out a last message before being overtaken to get rid of thier tear stones and go underground).

 

...and because their exposure came because some little frakker (probably a Scorpion supporter<_<) went, and without prompt, 'confessed' that he was a Kolat Master (cant remember which one, Coin I think) and told the Scorpion where the Hidden Temple was. :rolleyes:

 

The one thing I do hope doesn't happen is that they try to merge the Spider Clan and Shadowlands into a single group. Most of the problems came about because they made it an "Us or Them" issue and made defining the Spider Clan that much harder (the Shadowland players certainly didn't want to lose their only option to play, that's for certain).

 

With any luck the Spider Clan and Shadowlands will both be played separately (with the Shadowlands being one of those  1 vs All  decks I've been hearing about), and the Best Clan will be able to control the reins of our destiny. 

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5 hours ago, Magus Black said:

To be fair the reason the Kolat didn't get wiped out is because they're spread too far apart and dont make it obvious that they are Kolat  (the Master's likely sent out a last message before being overtaken to get rid of thier tear stones and go underground).

 

...and because their exposure came because some little frakker (probably a Scorpion supporter<_<) went, and without prompt, 'confessed' that he was a Kolat Master (cant remember which one, Coin I think) and told the Scorpion where the Hidden Temple was. :rolleyes:

 

The one thing I do hope doesn't happen is that they try to merge the Spider Clan and Shadowlands into a single group. Most of the problems came about because they made it an "Us or Them" issue and made defining the Spider Clan that much harder (the Shadowland players certainly didn't want to lose their only option to play, that's for certain).

 

With any luck the Spider Clan and Shadowlands will both be played separately (with the Shadowlands being one of those  1 vs All  decks I've been hearing about), and the Best Clan will be able to control the reins of our destiny. 


The Kolat cells communicated through the Oni's Eye. Its loss, combined with the loss of several of the Kolat's leadership, should have been crippling. Kaelung was also not a Kolat Master.

And after an arc where AEG went out of their way to prop the Spider up at the detriment of everyone else, down to ignoring storyline results that should have negatively hit the Spider, I'd like to think FFG would make sure nobody mistakes the Spider for the best clan. The way AEG handled the Spider is a serious part of why the game died for a lot of us.

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11 minutes ago, SirEuain said:

And after an arc where AEG went out of their way to prop the Spider up at the detriment of everyone else, down to ignoring storyline results that should have negatively hit the Spider, I'd like to think FFG would make sure nobody mistakes the Spider for the best clan. The way AEG handled the Spider is a serious part of why the game died for a lot of us.

That is something I never fully understood or accepted...  Why were the Spider suddenly Great Clan material, fully accepted into the courts.  Bayushi and the Scorpion were there from the beginning, so it makes sense that there may be a more villainous (or at least, less honorable) clan in the ranks - but the Mantis took quite a bit to hit their stride, then Spider are like "Yeah, we're here, fully dishonorable, still tainted, and for some reason we run things..."

I get why the Spider clan resonates with people.  It gave the taint a better face than the Shadowlands had.  I wouldn't mind if they built a city on the other side of the wall, and all political delegations were viewed with skepticism and concern, possibly even forcing them to wear jade whenever they visit the Empire.  They should also deal with a SERIOUS foreigner stigma since they didn't grow up in the courts.  The Unicorn have been back for 200 years and don't fit in as well as the Spider in the fictions, its horrible.

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Let's keep beating that dead horse over the Spider. People always seem to forget about the two other sides of the clan, the monks and the Susumu. The two sides of the clan that rarely, if ever, had the actual Taint. One of which included the son of the Empress.

Regardless of what FFG wants to do with new factions, just make them work within the framework of the game without making tons of rules for them alone. 

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1 hour ago, Kubernes said:

Regardless of what FFG wants to do with new factions, just make them work within the framework of the game without making tons of rules for them alone. 

That's my hope.

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2 hours ago, SirEuain said:

And after an arc where AEG went out of their way to prop the Spider up at the detriment of everyone else, down to ignoring storyline results that should have negatively hit the Spider, I'd like to think FFG would make sure nobody mistakes the Spider for the best clan. The way AEG handled the Spider is a serious part of why the game died for a lot of us.

What were the "ignored storyline results that should have negatively hit the Spider?" The Race for the Throne "Clan gets disbanded and will get a redemption or dissolution arc in Celestial Edition" that most people forget the second part of? Lots of players claim that the Story team ignored storyline results in favor of the Spider when in actuality those players were not paying attention to the actual results.

Edited by Ultimatecalibur

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10 minutes ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

What were the "ignored storyline results that should have negatively hit the Spider?" The Race for the Throne "Clan gets disbanded and will get a redemption or dissolution arc in Celestial Edition" that most people forget the second part of? Lots of players claim that the Story team ignored storyline results in favor of the Spider when in actuality those players were not paying attention to the actual results.

Aside from the redemption not happening, the Spider were told they'd be watched for signs of corruption. Everyone was told that whoever purged the Horiuchi would face consequences for it. Spider were given the chance to prove their good intent, instead fed the Horiuchi to goblins, the Kitsuki Magistrate Empress couldn't be bothered to look into it, Spider got a pass on all counts.

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The Horiuchi purge wasn't by "Great Clan" Spider, it was by the, "Yo, Susumu, I have a disgusting dirty job that I need done" Spider, well before they became a formal clan.

Moreover, as part of the deal with Daigotsu, the Spider received amnesty for their crimes prior to formally becoming a Great Clan.

While the post-Great Clan Spider got away with entirely too much, it seems that the timelines get hazy through the veil of distaste- the Spider as an actual Clan had to keep their Tainted guys in the Colonies (and not even in the nicer parts like the Second City), controlled no lands within Rokugan itself, lost the Chuda family's fealty (at least until Kanpeki's tantrum), and basically had to tiptoe about.

 

Now, the Dragon? Those guys got shafted by the Spider plot.

Edited by Shiba Gunichi

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37 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

The Horiuchi purge wasn't by "Great Clan" Spider, it was by the, "Yo, Susumu, I have a disgusting dirty job that I need done" Spider, well before they became a formal clan.

Moreover, as part of the deal with Daigotsu, the Spider received amnesty for their crimes prior to formally becoming a Great Clan.

And? Iweko explicitly told the Spider they'd be watched. AEG explicitly said there'd be fallout for the purge. Spider did what they wanted anyway, and got off scot free on all counts. That AEG came up with an in-story excuse at the eleventh hour doesn't change that AEG had said, in and out of story, that Spider should have faced consequences for what happened with the Horiuchi.

Bear in mind the Kotei season where Spider won an imperial heir and clan status had those and those alone as their announced prizes, with no small amount of grumbling that the other eight clans' worth of players had no say in the clan status. Despite this, Spider essentially got what even the story team called a victory lap, and received the biggest assortment of story prizes.

Lion, who were also supposed to win something in that kotei season, barely got their prize mentioned in the story. The Dragon won the Race for the Throne, and in the aftermath no few of them said that they'd have preferred losing if they got treated the way Spider did for losing.

37 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

While the post-Great Clan Spider got away with entirely too much, it seems that the timelines get hazy through the veil of distaste- the Spider as an actual Clan had to keep their Tainted guys in the Colonies (and not even in the nicer parts like the Second City), controlled no lands within Rokugan itself, lost the Chuda family's fealty (at least until Kanpeki's tantrum), and basically had to tiptoe about.


And also, with nearly half the clans gunning for them, no slip-ups, no chances to stop or uncover the Spider. The Spider got away with everything again, and when Seiken got stupid about it, Kanpeki threw a tantrum, to which nobody reacted as though the son of the greatest threat Rokugan had ever seen might be upset and doing something stupid, even the people specifically tasked to keep him from such.

Heck, when AEG had a story tournament about someone finding out what the Spider had done to the Sparrow, promising fallout for the Spider, the fallout turned out to be some of the Spider didn't mind gardening. 

The Spider, upon their full ascendance, were told they had suffered heavy losses. In the story, however, Daigotsu pulls a fast one on Iweko -- twice -- and gets turned into Super Fu Leng. Shahai dies, and becomes a goddess. Susumu dies, comes back, and basically laughs at everyone for being impotent and stupid. Kanpeki struts around, gets called the Shadow Emperor (which should more or less be considered treason), shoots his mouth off without consequence, and ends the story with a blatant deus ex machina event that literally a third of the Empire should have already spent resources trying to prevent, even without knowing what he was specifically planning.

None of it ever mattered. Everyone meekly sat on their hands, in defiance of all logic and story momentum, so that Spider could rewrite the nature of the setting. Again.
 

37 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Now, the Dragon? Those guys got shafted by the Spider plot.

Everyone got shafted by the Spider plot. The Mantis and Dragon got the worst of it, but AEG responding to people not liking Spider's place in the setting with more Spider promotion is part of what killed the game.

That's why Shahai worries me. On a level of respect for the Spider players, I absolutely want the Spider back in the game, but given how badly mismanaged they were, I'm leery of bringing back any major elements. I'd prefer FFG stay far, far away from anything resembling how Spider came into existence last time. Daigotsu, for all the Spider players love him, is easily the most divisive character in the game's history and frequently accused of being a Mary Sue. Kanpeki was called out for running to daddy at first sign of difficulty, a complaint even Spider players made. Susumu played a near-omniscient being for a chump, and was proven right. Yeah, of the big early names for Spider, Shahai's one of the least troublesome, but I was sincerely hoping FFG would build any nascent Spider Clan on completely different characters, if only to try to allay lingering concerns over the Spider's place in the story.
 

Edited by SirEuain

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41 minutes ago, SirEuain said:

And?

And it therefore fell under the amnesty.

41 minutes ago, SirEuain said:

Iweko explicitly told the Spider they'd be watched. AEG explicitly said there'd be fallout for the purge. Spider did what they wanted anyway, and got off scot free on all counts. That AEG came up with an in-story excuse at the eleventh hour doesn't change that AEG had said, in and out of story, that Spider should have faced consequences for what happened with the Horiuchi.

The lives of the human Spider present were forfeit. We never saw any of them again, either, which means the Unicorn probably collected on that marker.

41 minutes ago, SirEuain said:

Bear in mind the Kotei season where Spider won an imperial heir and clan status had those and those alone as their announced prizes, with no small amount of grumbling that the other eight clans' worth of players had no say in the clan status. Despite this, Spider essentially got what even the story team called a victory lap, and received the biggest assortment of story prizes.

As the payoff to their promised "redemption" arc, it hardly seems inappropriate.

Moreover, when the Spider found out they were raising an heir rather than the heir...

41 minutes ago, SirEuain said:

Lion, who were also supposed to win something in that kotei season, barely got their prize mentioned in the story. The Dragon won the Race for the Throne, and in the aftermath no few of them said that they'd have preferred losing if they got treated the way Spider did for losing.

1. The Lion. Considering how the Lion basically took the Shogun's job during the Destroyer War and got more facetime on the battlefront than even the Crab or the Unicorn? Considering that they got to be the ones to perform a pile of kanshi in protest of the Spider's acceptance? They were hardly hosed.

2. The Dragon. Well, the winner was promised the Throne. The eliminated clan was promised a special story all about how they get to fight to reclaim their status. Seems to me like people got what was on the tin.

41 minutes ago, SirEuain said:

And also, with nearly half the clans gunning for them, no slip-ups, no chances to stop or uncover the Spider.

Here, we more or less agree. The Sparrow infiltration, the Goju, dealing with Kinuye... none of it ever stuck to them in a meaningful way, although the Dragon got my hopes up when they gave Kanpeki a copy of Kitsuki Kaagi's journal as an object, "we know about your dirty little secret."

 

Now, with that said, at the time... the Spider's plots (what we saw of them) were pretty JV stuff.  Even the Sparrow infiltration (which dated to the Destroyer War) only seemed to still be going because the Spider involved already "didn't mind gardening."

41 minutes ago, SirEuain said:

The Spider got away with everything again, and when Seiken got stupid about it, Kanpeki threw a tantrum, to which nobody reacted as though the son of the greatest threat Rokugan had ever seen might be upset and doing something stupid, even the people specifically tasked to keep him from such.

That whole scene was two schlubs discovering that neither one's parent had negotiated in good faith. With that said... again, we basically agree.

41 minutes ago, SirEuain said:

None of it ever mattered. Everyone meekly sat on their hands, in defiance of all logic and story momentum, so that Spider could rewrite the nature of the setting. Again.

Methinks your distaste is coloring your memory here. We really didn't see much after Kanpeki went crying to his pappy, but nobody sat on their hands meekly. Feel free to complain about the plot juggernaut, but coming out of Winter Court 4, the Scorpion and Crab were at war with them, the Phoenix were only not at war with them because they were at war with the Unicorn already... and that was back when we thought they were still gonna try and fit into the Empire!

If the Clans failed to get their act together when Kanpeki stomped off about a year of real time later, reasons abounded-

The Unicorn and Phoenix were at war. It was presented as serious.
The Lion and the Scorpion were at war. It was presented as serious (Nitoshi torched Kyuden Bayushi to rob Dairuko of the satisfaction)
The Crane and the Mantis had just been at war, and both had come out of WC 4 as best of buds with their fellow Progressive Spider. Neither was all that big on Seiken, both had trade ties with the Spider...
The Crab were set to intervene in two wars on behalf of the Scorpion and the Phoenix.

Only the Dragon really had no excuse, hence my contention that they got hosed the worst- despite having no existentially pressing distractions, despite being tasked with overseeing the Spider, the Dragon got even more blindsided than everyone else and made out as abject failures in their Imperially-mandated duty.

 

41 minutes ago, SirEuain said:

That's why Shahai worries me. On a level of respect for the Spider players, I absolutely want the Spider back in the game, but given how badly mismanaged they were, I'm leery of bringing back any major elements. I'd prefer FFG stay far, far away from anything resembling how Spider came into existence last time. Daigotsu, for all the Spider players love him, is easily the most divisive character in the game's history and frequently accused of being a Mary Sue. Kanpeki was called out for running to daddy at first sign of difficulty, a complaint even Spider players made. Susumu played a near-omniscient being for a chump, and was proven right. Yeah, of the big early names for Spider, Shahai's one of the least troublesome, but I was sincerely hoping FFG would build any nascent Spider Clan on completely different characters, if only to try to allay lingering concerns over the Spider's place in the story.
 

Apart from Shahai (who was Lost for a looooooooooong time before she became an even nominal Spider),  there's precious little evidence that FFG will do the Spider in at all the same way- not least because, while you may have hated everything about their clan status, you seem to forget that they were an even worse fit before when they could just hang out in the City of the Lost and trust any Rokugani efforts to get at them to be whammied by the Shadowlands.

 

 

Look. I ranted as much as anyone about how consequences were never shown in the AEG story... but the Spider hardly had a monopoly on that. When did the Mantis ever pay for their treachery at the end of the Khan's March? When were the massive losses of the War of Dark Fire and the Destroyer War actually shown to matter, despite the entirety of the Crab lands and most of the Scorpion lands being overrun, Kyuden Isawa burning, the fall of the High House of Light?

Consequences were never terribly well applied.

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To be honest, the inception of the spider is one of the reasons I stopped playing before. It felt far more like shark jumping than a viable or good plot. 

During the original story arch, Day of Thunder and all, there were Villians and Heroes. I'm not even going to say all the stories were good but elevating  Villians to a place honor actually took away from the game. If anything some of the story decisions after a while seemed to even be not decided by the players tournaments but more spun to make it seem as such. 

 

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