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Tetsuhiko

Imperials will be the new Spiders (Predictions/Hopes)

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Posted (edited)

I'm a Spider fan since Day 1 first (especially during the Infiltration era) and an Imperial fan second. Therefore, I'm hyped about the last fiction and its potential implications. I'm probably overeading this, but I see a million way this could end up with an heavily-corrupted Imperial faction... Something I wouldn't mind at all. Keep in mind that Shahai is not a name you drop without reason. In the old storyline, she is one of the foundation of the Spider Clan, a Dark Fortune and the mother of Kanpeki, the Champion of Jigoku that literally destroyed Rokugan...

 

Possibility 1: Meisheido is corrupted one way or another. Given enough time, it's practionners are corrupted as well and you have the Seppun Hidden Guard with now a Hidden Agenda (manipulated by whatever is corrupting them, Jigoku or soemthing else entirely)

 

Possibility 2: Hubris. Now wielding a new a powerful magic, the Hidden Guard studies it beyond what is considered reasonable, unlocking a dark and hidden power inside it, eating the Imperial families from the inside slowly, corrupting their purpose

 

Possibilty 3 (and my favorite): Lovers. As an esteemed guest to the Imperial Palace, Shahai will have direct contact with an impressive number of Imperial officials and dignitaries, including the Imperial heirs. We know the Emperor has more than one child, one of which could be the man who became Daigotsu and Shahai's husband in the old timeline. They meet, they fall in love. The marriage of an Imperial heir is serious business, however, and love has nothing to do with it. Daigotsu (or whatever his name will be) gets promised to someone else (A phoenix would be even better, but this could be a nice ''doomed'' story prize) and both Daigotsu and Shahai are unwilling to be separated. (Love makes you do stupid things) They dabble into forbidden magic to change the Emperor's decision and succeeds. Shahai marries Daigotsu and everyone lives happily ever after.

Or not. First, changing the marriage of the Imperial Heir is a slap in the face for the Clan which was supposed to marry Daigotsu in the first place. Second, by dabbling into maho (or something similar), they opened their soul to corruption and are slowly willing to do more and more heinous acts in the name of the love or what they think is for the greater good of the empire, corrupting others around them while doing so. Given enough time, you have a faction within the Imperial Families, led by the son of the Emperor willing to do anything to make his life better. Maybe he now thinks he is better than his brother to rule the Empire and wants to overthrow him. Or maybe the EMpire is threatened by a neighbour and only he is willing to do the horrible, dishonorable thing able to save ROkugan, but damning everyone. The possibilities are endless and not necessarly exclusive.

Edited by Tetsuhiko

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Well, all of the possibilities could be something you do over a lot of years. They don't have to happen quickly. In fact, they work better if they happen over a long period of time. Get to know the characters, see their fall into darkness, set them up as credible villains over a long period of time, with reasonable excuses for villainy instead of treating them as villains of the week.

TechnoGolem and Doji Satevis like this

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I'm a Spider player and I don't want them to rule Rokugan. I never said no to a good villain and they have the perfect opportunity to reimagine the Spider Clan in a way that makes sense. Daigotsu and Shahai can end up dead at the end of the storyline, the Spider Clan defeated I wouldn't mind if they were well written and their fall to villany interesting.

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Yeah if they are going to reintroduce the Spiders they need to do it in such a way where they make more sense.  I'm not opposed to the idea of the Spider clan.  I just really didn't like how they always felt like they were being forced to fit.  Lay the ground work now so they make more sense if they show up in the future.

Dahawi, shosuko and Kinzen like this

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 I can appreciate that the Spider fans hope this will lead to something, but I'm doubtful.  There are already changes to Shahai and "Daigotsu" that I feel are significant.  This Shahai has recently completed her gempuku and is a promising meishodo practitioner.  This suggests that even if she is hearing the voices that led her to maho originally, she hasn't had the chance yet to fully follow that path and is unlikely to if she's essentially a hostage in the Forbidden City.  At the least, her studies of maho would be different.  Meanwhile, the Emperor's second child is a part of the Imperial family, rather than being born to a kidnapped Empress and raised among the Bloodspeakers to become Daigotsu. 

Then, there is the Crown Prince, who originally became the host for Fu Leng and inspired much of Daigotsu's vision of a corrupted Empire.  His being the last Hantei was an element of that happening, with the Scorpion killing every other reasonably potential heir, which would now include his younger brother.  There may not be a coup, a Second day of Thunder, or any other reason for "Daigotsu" to consider Fu Leng his brother and wish to follow him. 

Something could still develop, of course, but I think it would be notably different form the Spider Clan and may not be what many hope for.   Perhaps Satori will die and his younger brother will escape with Shahai's help, setting him up as Fu Leng's vessel.  Perhaps he'll become a new and better version of Iuchiban.  They certainly could become involved in the Bloodspeakers, but I don't see a Spider Clan surfacing.  Even a Shadowlands Empire under their rule would take some time to develop as a story.

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Posted (edited)

This is exactly why I quit playing the old L5R after the Spider clan nonsense.

L5R is at it's best when it's the Great clans against each other, or united by a common cause but jockeying for position and favors.

On top of them making no sense story wise, I value game balance above all. 7 factions each having to worry about 3 win conditions is enough for a team to pull their hair out about, nevermind adding in Mantis and/or Spider.

Then we have card starvation, and judging from what we know of the new packs (1 card per faction, + province card) there's just not any room for other clans.

I would not be against an optional standalone box featuring the shadowlands down the road for fun, but let's keep other Clans out of it.

Edited by Teslacrashed

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spider could exist just not as another great clan.

same with mantis. don't have to jump to the conclusion that everything is handled the same way all over again.

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7 minutes ago, Teslacrashed said:

Then we have card starvation, and judging from what we know of the new packs (1 card per faction, + province card) there's just not any room for other clans.

2 cards per faction, but yes, overall point stands.

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All good changes.  I think if the Spiders are being reintroduced they are gonna require a significant rewrite to make them a more convincing and sympathetic faction within the Empire from the perspective of the other clans.  If the Spiders are coming back I wanna see them tell us a very different story for them. 

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I wouldn't mind a Secret Spider Society, a mystery cult devoted to an idea that to maintain harmony in the Empire,  all of the Kami need to be revered - and this includes Fu Leng. So they gather in secret, shunned and hunted, to pray to the unloved Kami.

No dreams of ruling the empire and tainting yourself written in the dogma. A religious society whose fundamental beliefs are really hoping for the best for the Empire. Individuals...may wary.

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Re-quoting myself from a thread or so over:

 

Man, when Shahai and the Emperor's younger son start playing footsie and leading to Iuchiban Round 2, Daigotsu Boogaloo... the Phoenix are going to have an "I TOLD YOU IDIOTS!" field day.

Or when Shahai and the man who might have been Daigotsu turn out to be a loving couple devoted to a pure empire, all the old grognards' heads will explode.

 

Either way, I WIN!

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1 minute ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Man, when Shahai and the Emperor's younger son start playing footsie and leading to Iuchiban Round 2, Daigotsu Boogaloo... the Phoenix are going to have an "I TOLD YOU IDIOTS!" field day.

And we will point out how it's their fault for starting the mess that brought Shahai to the Hidden Guard. Or the Phoenix may aknowledge Onnotangu as the BBG responsible for all evil happening in Rokugan. :P

Either way, the story team wins!

Zetsubou and Shiba Gunichi like this

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Just now, Wintersong said:

And we will point out how it's their fault for starting the mess that brought Shahai to the Hidden Guard.

Nah, we wanted it banned, but nooooo, the stupid Crane and Dragon just HAD to back their buddies up. ;)

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17 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Re-quoting myself from a thread or so over:

 

Man, when Shahai and the Emperor's younger son start playing footsie and leading to Iuchiban Round 2, Daigotsu Boogaloo... the Phoenix are going to have an "I TOLD YOU IDIOTS!" field day.

Or when Shahai and the man who might have been Daigotsu turn out to be a loving couple devoted to a pure empire, all the old grognards' heads will explode.

 

Either way, I WIN!

This thread is going to get really funny when we find out that 'Daigotsu' is like.. a 6 year old or something. 😜

Shiba Gunichi likes this

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15 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Nah, we wanted it banned, but nooooo, the stupid Crane and Dragon just HAD to back their buddies up. ;)

:P I still think that Shahai would have ended as hostage to make sure that the Iuchi don't use meishodo. Or something like that. The kharmic wheel is spinning and there is no stopping it!!

I wish the Phoenix had tried to talk the Unicorn first instead of "BANHAMMER!!!". But if some kind of Spider happens, Phoenix to blame. 

Hint: If Phoenix had done nothing about it, it would have been the Unicorn's fault.

Just now, Tetsuhiko said:

#PhantomMenace

 

Please don't hurt me... ;)

In before Jar Jar...:rolleyes:

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Just now, Kitsuki Edogawa said:

I think he probably is.

I agree.

Sotorii may be old enough for the 'birds and bees', but that doesn't necessarily make him post-gempukku. If he was he'd probably be emperor already, and his brother an Otomo or Seppun. But that's not a hard and fast tradition so ....*shrug*

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11 minutes ago, Tetsuhiko said:

#PhantomMenace

 

Please don't hurt me... ;)

Daigotsu: "Are you an angel?"

Shahai:  "Um, sure. Why not. Also...BLOODSPEAKAH!!"

Daigotsu: "I hate Legend of the Burning Sands. It's course and rough and gets everywhere!"

Shahai: "Hey, that game was great. You know, I was gonna, like, wait until you were enough, and then cover my naked body in blood and like, have your baby n' stuff. But you're a LBS hater? Bugger off, kid."

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