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DrCthulhu

Don't fear the Legion?

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1 hour ago, jonboyjon1990 said:

So I wonder about the activation system in Legion. Is it just a gimmick? Why not just have alternating activations like in Armada/Imperial Assault? 

Is it just to be different for the sake of it? Or is the 'fog of war' really that much of a mini wargame staple? Is imperfect information strictly necessary? 

Also what's the point of 'defensive surges' and 'offensive surges'? Can't they just be surges like in Imperial Assault/Descent? 

Surely the fact that they appear on attack dice or defense dice and that each surge ability would be contextual (you wouldn't, for example, add a block when attacking) is enough? 

Seems needlessly inelegant - which is very unlike FFG. 

As part of the design, you can only have a single offensive surge and a single defensive surge.  Sure, it is contextual, but outside of special abilities or upgrade cards you will never have more than one thing to spend surges on.  They have a designated space on the card.

 

And you do alternate activations.  You just don't have perfect control over which of your activations each of your units will activate on.  Though this is tempered a little bit by having multiple units of the same type.  If you pull a trooper token, you can activate any trooper unit that hasn't been activated or given an order (their token already placed our face up)

Edited by rowdyoctopus

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1 hour ago, jonboyjon1990 said:

So I wonder about the activation system in Legion. Is it just a gimmick? Why not just have alternating activations like in Armada/Imperial Assault? 

Is it just to be different for the sake of it? Or is the 'fog of war' really that much of a mini wargame staple? Is imperfect information strictly necessary? 

Also what's the point of 'defensive surges' and 'offensive surges'? Can't they just be surges like in Imperial Assault/Descent? 

Surely the fact that they appear on attack dice or defense dice and that each surge ability would be contextual (you wouldn't, for example, add a block when attacking) is enough? 

Seems needlessly inelegant - which is very unlike FFG. 

Yeah, the dice are a bit weird. There are so many of them, and, as you said, inelegant. It doesn't seem like FFG to me either.

But the fog of war activation is great. Without it, this game would be completely ignored by me on the grounds of boring game play. But that simple mechanic adds a bunch of uncertainty that I think is necessary to keep the game interesting. If your opponent doesn't move who you expect, is it because of their limited deployment, or do they have a trap set? Do you move ahead with your ideal activation order for the round, or do you change it up in case they surprise you?

Eh, I guess that can be the case with IA style alternating activations, but this seems more fun and engaging to me.

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1 hour ago, jonboyjon1990 said:

Also what's the point of 'defensive surges' and 'offensive surges'? Can't they just be surges like in Imperial Assault/Descent? 

Surely the fact that they appear on attack dice or defense dice and that each surge ability would be contextual (you wouldn't, for example, add a block when attacking) is enough?

I haven't seen any demo videos, but do the surges actually look different? If not, then might it not be the same as surges vs. unique surges in Runewars? They use the same symbols on the dice, but are activated differently, depending on the ability.

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Unit activation by drawing from a bag is a typical thing. Typically this is done with differently colored dice in a bag and that just determines what player activates not what type of unit activates.

Offsetting that randomness with command cards is new. It's sort of a half Comand And colors and half bag draw. 

In C&C games like Battlelore you chose a card that lets you activate a few units for your whole turn. In legion the activations alternate between players for better pacing.

Legion has some intresting side effects. For example if you take a whole army of troops or vheicals you remove a massive amount of variability in your activation order. So there is a natural pressure to field an armour division or a troop division.

its very different and intresting. Too bad they are asking me to paint slightly larger storm troopers as the price of entery. 

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43 minutes ago, rowdyoctopus said:

I'm not sure how you think movement is impercise. You can premeasure the movement before you move.  You can move any distance along the tool and stop at anytime, and you can move the rest of your unit to exactly where you want them to be as long as they are in cohesion with the leader.  It is exactly precise while still limiting the distance a unit can travel in a single activation.

because movement ends with a bubble.  If you want things to move together, just use trays.  Why do you need 5 separate based miniatures when they are really just 1 miniature? 

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when drawing line of sight for attacks the unit only has cover if %50 of the figures have cover. the individual figures and formations are important. I'm sure there are other rules that make the resulting formation important.

also many unit upgrades are represented by figures.

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4 hours ago, Darthain said:

because movement ends with a bubble.  If you want things to move together, just use trays.  Why do you need 5 separate based miniatures when they are really just 1 miniature? 

Why are Runewars trays not just 1 figure?  They literally move as a solid block with no variability.  I'm not getting your point.

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4 hours ago, Budgernaut said:

I haven't seen any demo videos, but do the surges actually look different? If not, then might it not be the same as surges vs. unique surges in Runewars? They use the same symbols on the dice, but are activated differently, depending on the ability.

So the way the card is laid out, there are two "slots" for surge abilities on the card.  If a unit has an offensive surge, it is always shown in the top slot.  If a unit has a defensive surge, it is always shown in the bottom slot, even if it doesn't have an offensive surge.  As far as the dice are concerned, on offense you always roll D8s and on defense you always roll D6s.  Contextually, you obviously never need blocks on offense or hits on defense.  The two symbols do look different, are found on different dice, have their abilities located in a specific card space, and are used in distinct contexts.

Having said all of that, yes they call them offensive surges and defensive surges.  It really doesn't complicate anything.  I taught probably 40 people how to play today at GenCon and none of them were confused.

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14 minutes ago, rowdyoctopus said:

Why are Runewars trays not just 1 figure?  They literally move as a solid block with no variability.  I'm not getting your point.

Well, units are made up of trays that simultaneously act to define the footprint of the unit and act as wound markers. In the case of basic infantry like spear men and reanimates, they're really just pretty tokens.

I think the point is "if you want to use a bunch of miniatures, what's the best and/or most convenient way to move them around" and the clear answer as far as I'm concerned is trays.

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Just now, Bhelliom said:

Well, units are made up of trays that simultaneously act to define the footprint of the unit and act as wound markers. In the case of basic infantry like spear men and reanimates, they're really just pretty tokens.

I think the point is "if you want to use a bunch of miniatures, what's the best and/or most convenient way to move them around" and the clear answer as far as I'm concerned is trays.

I've had more trouble moving Runewars trays than I have squads of Legion figures, and I spent 5 hours showing people how to play today.

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8 hours ago, rowdyoctopus said:

Why are Runewars trays not just 1 figure?  They literally move as a solid block with no variability.  I'm not getting your point.

I'd go for that, so long as they are attached, less painting.  In thay case the answer is most likely to provide scale.

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I haven't lost interest in this game but I won't play both and because I haven't already bought this one I will probably get Legion and if I would start 2 new games it would be Modiphius Fallout and Legion.

I still realy like the undead here and would like to know more about Terrinoth but Star Wars rings a bigger bell for me.

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Legion surges are not at all like surges for IA, they are more just probability changers. The white defense die has one block and one surge. With no defensive surge ability (like the AT-RT) you have a 1 in 6 shot, with the surge you have a 1 in 3. With the red dice it's 3 in 6 or 4 in 6. So you have .167, .333, .500, and .667 with only two types of dice. It just makes it simpler to have different defense results between units. 

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I'm one of those people that was waiting for all 4 factions before I went beyond the starter set, but now with Legion I seriously doubt I'll continue RW. Legions fixes the couple problems I had with RW, mainly that the models in RW are just wound counters I spent lots of time painting, and that there are all the maneuver templates to keep track of. Having models count for something and only a couple tools would have sold me on Legion even before choosing the most iconic setting in existence.

Edited by Wired4War

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I actually like RW more than I like legion. Part of that may be star wars overload (4 years of playing xwing, 2 years of armada, IA, destiny, etc.) But a big part of it is I like the mind game of the initiative battle more so than the card mechanic. Also like the ability to personalize my army more without it looking really off. I mean, how many colors can you paint a stormtrooper and not have it look weird?

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1 hour ago, TallTonyB said:

I actually like RW more than I like legion. Part of that may be star wars overload (4 years of playing xwing, 2 years of armada, IA, destiny, etc.) But a big part of it is I like the mind game of the initiative battle more so than the card mechanic. Also like the ability to personalize my army more without it looking really off. I mean, how many colors can you paint a stormtrooper and not have it look weird?

Weren't pink Stormtroopers a thing before Sheev thought white is better as it creates thousands of new jobs in the armour cleaning business? :lol::D

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2 hours ago, Wired4War said:

I'm one of those people that was waiting for all 4 factions before I went beyond the starter set, but now with Legion I seriously doubt I'll continue RW. Legions fixes the couple problems I had with RW, mainly that the models in RW are just wound counters I spent lots of time painting, and that there are all the maneuver templates to keep track of. Having models count for something and only a couple tools would have sold me on Legion even before choosing the most iconic setting in existence.

Except models in Legion appear to just be wound counters, too, so it doesn't really fix anything.

Yeah, you can apparently buy individual dudes with heavy weapons, but they just fill upgrade slots exactly the same way a figure upgrade in RW does so...

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4 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

Except models in Legion appear to just be wound counters, too, so it doesn't really fix anything.

Yeah, you can apparently buy individual dudes with heavy weapons, but they just fill upgrade slots exactly the same way a figure upgrade in RW does so...

You missed where you roll an attack die for each model in a unit, plus they each move individually as long as they stay in cohesion.

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Cover will be very important in Legion and so you need terrain. Having the cardboard terrain in Runewars is a big plus for me. I doubt I would get around to making terrain for a game as well as painting all the figures. 

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10 hours ago, TallTonyB said:

Legion surges are not at all like surges for IA, they are more just probability changers. The white defense die has one block and one surge. With no defensive surge ability (like the AT-RT) you have a 1 in 6 shot, with the surge you have a 1 in 3. With the red dice it's 3 in 6 or 4 in 6. So you have .167, .333, .500, and .667 with only two types of dice. It just makes it simpler to have different defense results between units. 

So in a way it's almost like Focus in X-Wing, except you don't need an action to have access to it, and some units have/don't have offensive/defensive surges. 

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6 hours ago, Wired4War said:

You missed where you roll an attack die for each model in a unit, plus they each move individually as long as they stay in cohesion.


And you multiply damage by number of trays in Runewars. There is almost no functional difference here except for the roughly 4-1 conversion rate.

Furthermore, they don't move individually. The squad leader moves, the others are placed within a movement bubble. They're just floating hit points.

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They do not move individually, which I think is a great thing as it keeps things fast and simple; no measuring for each and every trooper, just move the leader.  But the positioning of the squad members at the end of the move absolutely does matter and is one of the best things about this system, imho.  Let's say your squad moves into a bombed-out building. Depending on how you position them, each trooper could be a.) completely obscured, so unable to fire / be fired upon, b.) in cover and able to fire, or c.) out of cover and exposed, or d.) some combination of the above, based on facing and enemy flanking.

So you can do things like hide your heavy weapons guy so you don't loose him in an infantry firefight, or outflank and enfilade an enemy squad hiding behind some barricades. Damage isn't automatically the number of troopers in the squad, it depends on your positioning.  This cover and movement system reminds me alot of the old AT-43 game by Rackham, which imho was one of the more elegant systems I've tried.

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