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12 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

my problem with this is "Why would anyone want low hull, high variance (the variable feast or famine that only ever dominated ala tie swarm and palp aces or was never seen again) as their defining playstyle?"

A swarm averages out thanks to all those dice rolls. And imperial arc dodgers avoid rolling dice for the most part. Between just using double post-maneuver movement at R1 and the ability to make out of 4 blanks still 3 evades (token, autothruster, palpatine) there is no high variance play. There only the small grey area at R2 which becomes a dice roll. 

Basically imperial aces had enough tools to negate the variance for the most part, but leaving high-risk high reward plays open, because if you made a mistake you could lose most or even all of those tools to negative variance and were punished for your mistake with a dice roll, which you still could win. ;-)

It fun to me, getting rewarded for correct moves and still getting into a unwanted gamble when you screwed up. When you left Palpatine at home, you still had a 3rd or even 4th ace to make to give you some buffer against variance, so everything was fine too. The issue is that when your tools to avoid most of your dice variant gets countered by offensive power above your defensive abilities. Instead of having reliable defense, you end if with defense which lets you blood out still and thanks to your low HP you blood out fast on top, meanwhile your offensive powers are mostly dice variance and not up to the task anymore. Looking forward to fly Vader and Soontir again someday. Maybe we get a Fel's wrath that is worth his salt. A Wingmen upgrade card for empire would be cool for example, defining pairs which can boost each other. Something which Fel's Wrath had been right from the beginning. Something like "Once per Turn, when your wingman is defending during his modify dice step, if you have his attacker in arc, you may immediately perform an attack (If you do so, you can not attack again this turn). You may choose to either add one hit result to your attack or one evade result to your wingman's defense.", or whatever else FFG comes up to create some wingmen synergies for the empire to watch each other's back. 
The other big appeal from the empire was exactly this pairing up of your aces, once the opponent committed to one of your aces, the others started to clearing the six of his wingman, while the guy under fire did everything to avoid getting blown up. It had this nice dog fight skirmish ring to it, something which you did experience in the space sims as well, fighters protecting each other, dancing with the enemy and trying to anticipate target switches before to avoid getting blown up in a single surprising move of the opposition.  It just felt right. Ryad can still bring this, but in general the game got a lot more joust heavy. Stay together, bring as much firepower as you can onto your target, take enemy fire like a man. A boring dice game with not much points to turn a game and not much dice variance to keep the dice rolling at least interesting! For me the opposite of fun as game direction. 

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5 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

The Imperial faction isn't just ships with the Imperial logo on, it's a style of play.  That style of play is ******.  It got ****** in Wave 9, Wave 10 did nowhere near enough to fix it, Wave 11 stuck the boot in, and Wave 12 is just taking the piss.

The Imperial faction is dead.  There are some ships that have the Imperial logo on the back of their pilot cards but they're not Imperial, not in the way they play.

Imperials have never had a single style of play.  It's mostly what's been PLAYED, but it's hardly the only ships they've had available.  And even with what's been played, tie fighters may be low health, high agility, but a tie swarm is a VASTLY different style of play than imperial aces are.  And personally I'm FAR more interested in the newer imperial stuff (Love the post-vets defenders, love the SF) than I ever was in the squishy arc-dodgers.  The Faction is far from dead.  YOU might not play it, but other people will.

5 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I know.  At this point the only reason I'm still playing the game these past few months is that too many people want to see me quit, and I'm just too stubborn to give them what they want.

That's a terrible reason to keep playing a game

2 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

I don't know why FFG made that playstyle the defining factor of imperials for 8 waves, but they did. Then they changed it. That means formerly correct perception became wrong. Naturally those who liked it want it back.

Come on, that's a bit disingenuous. These discussions are usually aimed at somewhat competitive play, where you can't really play them.

They probably changed it because the only people that actually liked imperial arc-dodgers were the people playing them.  They were a terrible experience to play against generally

 

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2 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

I agree with the vast majority of your post there fickle; however as you know I do myself enjoy the RNG factor of green dice.  I'd rather have a chance to avoid damage via rolling multiple green dice (a la an Academy Pilot) than simply have to take it on the chin and hope I can destroy my enemy before they destroy me (B-Wing).

RNG vs Attrition; there has to be a balance somewhere.

...but you can.  @hothie has proved time and time again what you can do with a TIE swarm, and only yesterday we saw a very low health high agility ship (albeit with regeneration) take the North American Championship.  Palpatine was nerfed, but he's still usable.  x7's were nerfed, but they're still usable.  Soontir, Carnor, the Inquistor, all currently out of favour, but put in the practice and it's still possible to get great results with them.

The Empire's problem is it has a high skill floor and a high risk environment.  You can't simply pick up and play most Imperial lists in a way you can Scum or Rebels - you really need to put the time and effort in to understanding your own list (and knowing your opponents).  At the same time, you will be punished if you make mistakes.

Then where are these Fels and Inquistors? They have enough fans that surely someone should have put in the time and effort to do what you are saying, but we have yet to see that pay off in upper level play. True, there is still time for someone to come in and prove you right, but until then, historical data suggests that flying Fel and troop is too risky for the benefit offered.

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7 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

They probably changed it because the only people that actually liked imperial arc-dodgers were the people playing them.  They were a terrible experience to play against generally

And that's a fair point against which I don't argue at all.

All I'm saying is that they changed the primary style, which those former players need to adjust to, and that doesn't work without friction

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8 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

 

 

They probably changed it because the only people that actually liked imperial arc-dodgers were the people playing them.  They were a terrible experience to play against generally

 

As someone who fought them regularly and dealt with others who played with and against them, I would like to challenge your "generally" clause. For some, it was a terrible experience. For others, it was a challenge with fantastic rewards.

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2 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

As someone who fought them regularly and dealt with others who played with and against them, I would like to challenge your "generally" clause. For some, it was a terrible experience. For others, it was a challenge with fantastic rewards.

Part of that depends on what you were flying

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Also, while the swarms and arc-dodgers are all that really worked out/took OFF in the first 8 waves, they were hardly the only things the developers gave us.  TIE Advanced (mostly ended up in the arc-dodger category with vader), TIE Bomber, TIE Defender, and TIE Punisher were all in mixed in there, not to mention the large base ships.  They may not have turned out to be overly good (at least until Veterans in the defenders case), but they were definitely there as a different playstyle

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2 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Part of that depends on what you were flying

It can, but not entirely. It's tough to take down an arc dodging list with traditional jousters. But the feeling of satisfaction from doing so is usually worth it when achieved.

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Forgive me for saying it, but... GUNBOAT!!!

I don't mind SLAM, infact in this environment it makes the ship different without access to bombs, cheap cannons able to fire after SLAMming and the jamming beam useful also for TIE/D Defenders.

 

Now as a TIE Interceptor fan I wonder if Bullseye doesn't become a thing for Interceptors and how fragile ships will be updated in the future.

Edited by Endobai

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Sadly, expecting any mechanic that requires a new cardboad base template to come to an older ship is pretty much never going to happen.

Best they'd do for the Interceptor to give it the bullseye is another Aces pack for it that happens to have pilots focused around bullseye, but leaves the older ones in the dust.

i've been waiting for mobile arc to be a thing for all turret users. Nothing even hinting at it happening yet :(

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9 minutes ago, Endobai said:

Forgive me for saying it, but... GUNBOAT!!!

I don't mind SLAM, infact in this environment it makes the ship different without access to bombs, cheap cannons able to fire after SLAMming and the jamming beam useful also for TIE/D Defenders.

 

Now as a TIE Interceptor fan I wonder if Bullseye doesn't become a thing for Interceptors and how fragile ships will be updated in the future.

If bullseye comes to squints they should have a bullseye primary and a normal aux which they lose if they double reposition  or bank boost...

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On 21/08/2017 at 3:09 PM, FTS Gecko said:

Two Kylo crits and it's dead, regardless of regen.  And Kylo's not the only pilot/crew which ignores shields nowadays.

Especially when there's now a ship that can fire Adv. Homers, if it hits or misses, who cares? He can just AdvSLAMM Reload away and try for a second pass in a turn or two in the meta.

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