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MajorJuggler

2017 Nationals Championships

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29 minutes ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

I see Paul Heaver is thru to top16, anyone know what he is playing? id guess 4 ship rebels.

Nymranda.

Nym: VI TLT Bomblet AdvSen Genius EU Havoc

Miranda: AdvSlam IonBomb Thermals Clusters EM TLT Sabine

97/100

 

4SR is a noobstomper, good players know how to beat it pretty consistently. Paul learned that the hard way at gencon :P

Edited by Elavion

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On 8/30/2017 at 11:07 AM, Scumwing Apologist said:

Huge surprise. Undercosted, can get to PS10, amazing dial, amazing upgrade bar, minimal counterplay, infinite bombs, doesn't take damage from own bombs, can drop bombs after maneuver, and can fly like a drunk and still bomb you. God I hate this wave.

This sounds made up. LOL

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On 8/29/2017 at 10:32 AM, Sunitsa said:

@MajorJuggler

I don't have other details, but here are the archetypes of France and Germany Nationals as were posted on Reddit and Facebook

 

France National Championship 2017

 

Winner

Nym+VeteranInstincts+TLT+Bomblets+Havoc+EngineUpgrade+AccuracyCorrector+Genius (47)
Dash+LoneWolf+HLC+Rey+Outrider+Smuggling+BurnoutSLAM (53)

Runner up

Yorr (with kylo) QD Vader (both ps 11 and cruise)

Top 4

Vader QD kestel (all cruise)

Not compiled top 32

4ship rebels

Rey Jan

Nymgar

Biggs lowhric Mira

Rac whisper

Nymgar

Nym Mira

Vessery omega Inqui

Vader maarek(tieAdv) vessery

2*tieSF omega

Ketsu Bossk

Fenn Teroch scout

Dash Mira

Rey lowhric

Fenn Nym sunny

Asajj scout lok (mimdlink)

4ship rebel

Fenn Terry scout

Vessery qd omega

4ship rebel

Dengar tel

Yorr QD Backdraft

Kath Nym

Kanan lowhric biggs

dash nym

Dash nym

Dash nym

Yorr QD Vader

Fenn asajj palobi

Vader QD kestel (all cruise)

Vess ryad delta

Palpshuttle ryad inqui

Must be some mistake, I make that 12 lists from a faction which everyone says isn't upto snuff on the current meta...

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1 minute ago, Dunderwood said:

Heaver's on to the final, where he'll face Biggs/Lowrick/Miranda.

Miranda/Nym vs Biggs/Low/Miranda........

Apparently:

1. Regen is good

2. Biggs/Low is good

3. Placing Bombs with perfect information is good

4. TLT is good

1v8h3w.jpg

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They were talking about an xwing panel with the designers on the YouTube stream. Could anyone please give a summary of what they talked about ? Or will this be posted online somewhere?

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2 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

An interesting data point, but also one that has little corroborating data.

Well, if you want to dismiss other National tournaments, that is up to you. Frankly, you will not find much corroboration of what happens in Europe in the US. If there is one thing I have noticed in my 20 years of gaming, going back to SWCCG, Europeans are more innovative than Americans. There is far too much group think and follow the leader in the US. 

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Just now, Sithborg said:

Well, if you want to dismiss other National tournaments, that is up to you. Frankly, you will not find much corroboration of what happens in Europe in the US. If there is one thing I have noticed in my 20 years of gaming, going back to SWCCG, Europeans are more innovative than Americans. There is far too much group think and follow the leader in the US. 

And if it turns out a European wins worlds with an Imperial list, then I can concede the point. 

Also, I am not dismissing the French National, nor the South African one either. But when collecting data, outliers and anomalies pop up. If Imperials struggling was merely group think, more players daring to try something different (which isn't limited to Europe) should be seeing wider array of success. The French National provides interesting data, but until those results are replicated over more upper level tournaments, its results must be viewed with the possibility of it being an outlier. 

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While wave 11's bomblets and Nyms may go down as some of the grossest underestimations of the true value of cards, can we take a second to remember how silly wave 7's  TLT and Miranda were? 

 

I mean, Miranda is hilarious. Want alpha strike? She does it best! Regen? Got that too! Bombing? Got it! Oh, you say you want a TLT on top of all that? Well you're in luck!

 

Nym and bomblets are essentially the designers looking at Miranda and saying, "ya, that's fine".

 

I really wish they could've seen why it wasn't...

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Except when it confirms you beliefs, of course. 

And the obsession with what wins is a terrible way to evaluate the meta. The meta is more than the top 2-4 squads, especially in such large tournaments. 

What the French Nationals have shown, is that Imperials have options and are not out of the game like many of the chicken littles. 

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6 minutes ago, Sithborg said:

Except when it confirms you beliefs, of course. 

And the obsession with what wins is a terrible way to evaluate the meta. The meta is more than the top 2-4 squads, especially in such large tournaments. 

What the French Nationals have shown, is that Imperials have options and are not out of the game like many of the chicken littles. 

Okay, explain how one example of an Imperial lists making top two outweighs two or three other nationals, three system opens, and a worlds?

What wins at upper level events should be the partnership of a solid team and a good pilot. If Imperials aren't getting into even the top 16 very often, that means part of the equation isn't providing enough value. And while pilots are a factor, it is also a greater variable and I find it absurd to think that all the players who tried to use Imperial lists in the US were all bad players. That leaves the common factor of the faction.

To be clear, Imperials aren't totally out of the game. The French Nationals is something I hope inspires more people to try out Imperial lists. SC season had a good number of Imperial wins and I've been enjoying some First Order Aces play myself. But that doesn't change how it looks at upper level play. Some might not think that matters and that's their right. But others do care and think that upper level play gives valuable insights into the nature of the game. 

It's not about what wins. It's about what can win. 

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40 minutes ago, Sithborg said:

Except when it confirms you beliefs, of course. 

And the obsession with what wins is a terrible way to evaluate the meta. The meta is more than the top 2-4 squads, especially in such large tournaments. 

What the French Nationals have shown, is that Imperials have options and are not out of the game like many of the chicken littles. 

Not entirely out of the game, no. Way behind the power curve? I think that's got to be considered at the moment. Expanding out from the top 2-4 squads doesn't do Imperials any real favors. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but what wins and is regularly at the top is the way to evaluate the meta. One Imperial in the top 16 at Gencon. 1 Imperial in the top 16 at German Nationals. Two in the top 8 at South Africa, on listjuggler France has 4 in the top 16 but all 16 aren't entered so maybe there were more. Right now France is looking like the outlier, but even there an imperial list couldn't win. Out of 56 top lists when 8 (potentially up to 11 with the French lists not filled in) are Imperial, and more than half of those were from one of the 4 major tournaments that's not great. We'd expect to see 18-19 of each faction in a perfectly faction balanced meta, and we're not at half that.

Saying Europeans are much more innovative than the US when it comes to minis gaming seems odd when looking at the German Nationals results, but also the French Nationals results where the winner was Nym/Dash and there were Nym/Dengar, Nym/Miranda, Swarm Leader Vess x7's, Cruise missile alpha strike Imps, and RAC/Whisper in the top 16. The #2 list with cruise alpha aces and a shuttle without Palp was interesting and fairly unique, but the top 16 weren't some bastion of innovation. I don't think it's nearly unique enough to claim that any nationals results not lining up with the French nationals are due to lack of innovation in North America, and France is the real data.

Edit: And NOVA was won by Paul Heaver with Nym/Miranda, against Tim Hilton with Biggs/Lowhrick/Miranda. No Imps in top 4 but at least one in the top 8. Duncan Howard had a PalpYorr/Vader/OL which lost to Paul Heaver in top 8.

Edited by mdl0114

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A winner of a large tournament is going to combine a decent list with decent flying and decision making and a hefty amount of luck. It doesn't matter if you position yourself perfectly and get off perfect ordnance/bombs if you don't roll damage. Imperials aren't that poorly positioned in the current meta, they are just higher variance than rebels and scum currently because they rely on green dice (for the most part). Green dice will make the game more of a blowout in either direction than when you have low agility ships with high health. The meta right now is in a very good place. There are tons of viable builds and you just have to minimize mistakes and let RNJesus take you to victory.

 

edit: fixed a typo

Edited by Hoffburger

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