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2017 Nationals Championships

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8 minutes ago, defkhan1 said:

Polish Nats only had 66 players? Or is that all we have entered? If the latter then we're working on very incomplete data.

Incomplete data of course. 66 out of 156. But to compare: NOVA cut was 64 players, and that is quite good. Unless there is a systematic error, e.g. imperial players are more likely to enter their lists. Who knows?

By the way, the most frequent ship of those 66 was Quickdraw.

gm6yxrL.png

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1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

Incomplete data of course. 66 out of 156. But to compare: NOVA cut was 64 players, and that is quite good. Unless there is a systematic error, e.g. imperial players are more likely to enter their lists. Who knows?

By the way, the most frequent ship of those 66 was Quickdraw.

gm6yxrL.png

Not gonna lie, it took me seeing this graph about 10 times before it made sense.

 

It is pretty sweet though.

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22 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

Not gonna lie, it took me seeing this graph about 10 times before it made sense.

 

It is pretty sweet though.

Yeah I have to stop plastering it everywhere though.

I just did the whole wave8 until wave 9. Several thousand ships, all at a glance

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3 hours ago, LagJanson said:

Try this link - lists by somebody else 

http://challonge.com/1dm0sv60

Do we know who got the super buys (200pnt win) Duncan Howard was talking about?

I rescind the question as I agree players don't need to be called out for getting a buy and it was not my intent to shame obviously good players.

Edited by Ryedub

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43 minutes ago, Ryedub said:

Do we know who got the super buys (200pnt win) Duncan Howard was talking about?

By 'we' you mean 'me' then no. I really wasn't keeping track of these things, but did see Duncan ask, the show of hands and then gone. Frankly, I don't think it matters. It's certainly not their fault.

Edit: clarification on 'it' - the players names here certainly don't need to get called out for this.

Edited by LagJanson

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It's remarkable how otherwise (presumably) intelligent people can get a call so wrong, just because a couple of circumstances have to be considered.

Pairing those eight against each other is simply a no-brainer.  It's not "arguably" correct ... it's just correct.  Those are the kinds of calls that make players not trust certain venues and TOs.

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8 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

By 'we' you mean 'me' then no. I really wasn't keeping track of these things, but did see Duncan ask, the show of hands and then gone. Frankly, I don't think it matters. It's certainly not their fault.

Edit: clarification on 'it' - the players names here certainly don't need to get called out for this.

Agreed, while this should never have happened the players in that situation don't need to be called out because it's not their fault.

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2 hours ago, HammerOfReason said:

It seems that there were also Malaysian Nationals this weekend:

http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=3464

 

I see a name I recognise - World Champ Phua from Singapore, who placed 10th in Swiss but did not make the top 8 overall.

Was it actually him or someone with the same name?

It's next door to Singapore and connected by a land bridge, so it could well be him.

Edited by Moppy

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10 minutes ago, Moppy said:

 

I see a name I recognise - World Champ Phua from Singapore, who placed 10th in Swiss but did not make the top 8 overall.

Was it actually him or someone with the same name?

It's next door to Singapore and connected by a land bridge, so it could well be him.

I think it is a pretty safe assumption that it is him.

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5 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

It's remarkable how otherwise (presumably) intelligent people can get a call so wrong, just because a couple of circumstances have to be considered.

Pairing those eight against each other is simply a no-brainer.  It's not "arguably" correct ... it's just correct.  Those are the kinds of calls that make players not trust certain venues and TOs.

Yeah, this was... weird? Are we missing some info that makes this decision make sense?

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On ‎9‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 4:54 PM, Brunas said:

Yeah, this was... weird? Are we missing some info that makes this decision make sense?

Maybe? I mean, there is a reason that the decision was made, it's whether that was a good reason or not. I walked away happy with the judging, had a lot of fun, but yeah I know somebody who may have missed cut based on that decision. I will not complain since I don't know the story, but will agree it's weird.

Edit: Clarified that this was not a factor - further clarifying I'm not and haven't been angered or frustrated by this just curious.

Edited by LagJanson

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3 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Maybe? I mean, there is a reason that the decision was made, it's whether that was a good reason or not. I walked away happy with the judging, had a lot of fun, but yeah I know somebody who may have missed cut based on that decision. I will not complain since I don't know the story, but will agree it's weird.

I get what you're saying, but given that it was a significant fraction of the attendance, and a very significant fraction of the cut, isn't it fair to say that the folks running the game have some responsibility that you do "know the story"?  It may not make people any happier with the actual call, but transparency tends to make people happier with the people making the call.

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Hey Guys. 

Canadian Nationals Marshal here.  

When the players were called over to re-pair the store employee who was onsite running the event saw they were upset with the situation and made the call to give them all a bye. 

The '8 players' comes from a mix of players taking first round losses to play in one of the three other ffg top cuts running at that time and attendance not properly being taken by the same overburdened onsite staffer who was running those top cuts. Two x wing players also took losses in IA and Armada to play in the X wing Cut. 

I regret that there was an issue for those with byes and I wish there had been a different resolution. I also spoke to Duncan about his issues when he approached me after the event. Our inebriated state notwithstanding. I agree with Duncan's opinion that switching back to a 200 superbye is reasonable in a tournament system where players are no longer paired by MOV. 

Our hands were tied in a variety of frustrating ways this year due to the distributor switch and the last minute nature of the event.

We've been promised greater freedom and control in 2018 by the new organization taking control from the local game store. We are working to insure that incidents like this don't happen again. 

Everyone had a great time and we ran a tight and smooth event. This fact is mentioned several times in the podcast and reiterated at the end. As well the feedback from players has been university positive. 

Please check out the top 16 on Vttv live and watch breakoutcon.com for info coming on Nationals  2018. We hope to be able to run a different format and side events. Breakoutcon is going to be a great partner and I'm looking forward to working with them. 

I highly recommend reading the winners blog post here: https://spaceowlsxwing.blogspot.ca/2017/09/i-won-thing.html?m=1

He faced a Murderers' Row of players from near and far to take the championship. 

I don't really intend to get into a debate here or say more then I have. 

Thanks,  and I look forward to seeing you next year.

Devon. 

Edited by 6ixorganizer
clarity

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On ‎9‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 5:28 PM, Jeff Wilder said:

I get what you're saying, but given that it was a significant fraction of the attendance, and a very significant fraction of the cut, isn't it fair to say that the folks running the game have some responsibility that you do "know the story"?  It may not make people any happier with the actual call, but transparency tends to make people happier with the people making the call.

I'm curious, yes. Transparency is better, I agree. I hadn't heard about the byes until day two and I'll bet I am not the only one that hadn't known. I'm only posting the things I know about and not crucifying them based on speculation. I'll wait for facts before collecting my torch and pitchfork.

Edit: For those that don't know me - my pitchfork is made of nerf foam. I have better things to do than 'net rage.

Edited by LagJanson

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13 hours ago, Moppy said:

 

I see a name I recognise - World Champ Phua from Singapore, who placed 10th in Swiss but did not make the top 8 overall.

Was it actually him or someone with the same name?

It's next door to Singapore and connected by a land bridge, so it could well be him.

Yeah it's Justin. The two communities are quite close so we tend to go to each other's tournaments. Justin was Top Four last year here. In fact he sponsored some of the prizes too

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15 hours ago, Moppy said:

 

I see a name I recognise - World Champ Phua from Singapore, who placed 10th in Swiss but did not make the top 8 overall.

Was it actually him or someone with the same name?

It's next door to Singapore and connected by a land bridge, so it could well be him.

Yes it was - only takes 5 hours by road or 1 by plane

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On 9/25/2017 at 6:15 PM, LagJanson said:

I'm curious, yes. Transparency is better, I agree. I hadn't heard about the byes until day two and I'll bet I am not the only one that hadn't known. I'm only posting the things I know about and not crucifying them based on speculation. I'll wait for facts before collecting my torch and pitchfork.

Here's what we just got posted from Devon (the marshal from Canadian Nationals) about the first round bye stuff:

 

Quote

Apparently I'm not allowed to post on the FFG Forums as my post has been waiting over 30 hours for approval. 

So I'll just put this here. 

If someone wants to re-post it there feel free. Regarding Duncan's Rant at the end and the comments on the FFG forums: 

Hey Guys. 

Canadian Nationals Marshal here. 

When the players were called over to re-pair the store employee who was onsite running the event saw they were upset with the situation and made the call to give them all a bye. 

The '8 players' comes from a mix of players taking first round losses to play in one of the three other ffg top cuts running at that time and attendance not properly being taken by the same overburdened onsite staffer who was running those top cuts. Two x wing players also took losses in IA and Armada to play in the X wing Cut. 

I regret that there was an issue for those with byes and I wish there had been a different resolution. I also spoke to Duncan about his issues when he approached me after the event. Our inebriated state notwithstanding. I agree with Duncan's opinion that switching back to a 200 superbye is reasonable in a tournament system where players are no longer paired by MOV. 

Our hands were tied in a variety of frustrating ways this year due to the distributor switch and the last minute nature of the event.

We've been promised greater freedom and control in 2018 by the new organization taking control from the local game store. We are working to insure that incidents like this don't happen again. 

Everyone had a great time and we ran a tight and smooth event. This fact is mentioned several times in the podcast and reiterated at the end. As well the feedback from players has been university positive. 

Please check out the top 16 on Vttv live and watch breakoutcon.com for info coming on Nationals 2018. We hope to be able to run a different format and side events. Breakoutcon is going to be a great partner and I'm looking forward to working with them. 

I highly recommend reading the winners blog post here: https://spaceowlsxwing.blogspot.ca/.../i-won-thing.html...

He faced a Murderers' Row of players from near and far to take the championship. 

I don't really intend to get into a debate here or say more then I have. 

Thanks, and I look forward to seeing you next year.

Devon.

 

Edited by Brunas

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4 hours ago, Brunas said:

When the players were called over to re-pair the store employee who was onsite running the event saw they were upset with the situation and made the call to give them all a bye. 

The '8 players' comes from a mix of players taking first round losses to play in one of the three other ffg top cuts running at that time and attendance not properly being taken by the same overburdened onsite staffer who was running those top cuts. Two x wing players also took losses in IA and Armada to play in the X wing Cut. 

Wait what?

So just some dude who was neither fit nor allowed to make that call made that call?

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54 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Wait what?

So just some dude who was neither fit nor allowed to make that call made that call?

Without starting the debate, as Devon requested, the store was running the National, much like FFG runs the US National, so they were indeed the ones to make the final call. As Devon said, the 2018 National won't be run by the same organization.

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On 21.09.2017 at 7:46 PM, HammerOfReason said:

A good analysis, but it's underplaying the actual strength of Aces. Which is still here, despite what the doom and gloom crowd keeps endlessly repeating.

In the right circumstances, such as the endgame 1 on 1 situation, the Ace (e.g. Inquisitor or Soontir) can tank a pretty much unlimited amount of opposing shots. Making sure that he takes 0 damage, while slowly wearing down the opponent.

Those popular low risk high health platforms don't have such closing power. They will take damage consistently and they will die after finite number of turns. (Miranda is possibly the biggest exception to this rule.) 

Turrets are indeed not the problem for the Ace. A vanilla 3 dice PWT attack will deal pretty much 0 damage to Ace with Autothrusters, if the Ace players plays it slowly and defensively. (Additional specific upgrades such as Vader, HotCop and/or Gunner can change this maths of course.)

The elephant in the room are of course the bombs. But this is the reason why a toolbox approach to squadbuilding is needed. Triple Aces won't cut it. Make sure that the remaining 65-69 points in your squad can murder the bombers dead, dead, dead. Then the Ace can take over in the end game.

And all the factions have multiple ships which are excellent bomber killers. RAC, Quickdraw, Torp Scouts, Dash, ... the list goes on.

While the combination of turrets + bombs + high PS is unfortunate and detrimental to the game's principles, it's not the end of the game, or the Aces. Play the counters for the win, or just have fun flying what you want. The meta will shift again.

That's very nice theorizing. There are 2 main flaws in it:

1. Imperial toolbox is kinda shallow. Traditionally imperial lists were either swarms or aces. Both archetypes are countered by bombs. Simply put, imperials just don't have a good answer to bombs that would also be effective against the other stuff in the meta.

2. Even the cheaper aces take roughly a third of your list. Taking one and then insta-losing it to bombs puts you way too far behind to recover in most cases.

Last but not least, you can argue all you want about aces' "strength" and dismiss people who claim otherwise as the "doom and gloom crowd" but the facts are on their side, not yours.

As it happens, if you look at the recent nationals of medium to large size (US, UK and Poland) we get:

1. 2 imperial lists in top 16 in the US, 1 in top 8, none in top 4.

2. 1 imperial list in top 16 in UK, none in top 8.

3. 0 imperial lists in top 16 in Poland.

That gives us on average a whooping 1 imperial list among the top 16 players in those tournaments. None of them came even close to winning the event. There are only 3 possible explanations for this:

1. All of the imperial players got lobotomized recently and forgot how to play.

2. No imperial player considered the novelty of maybe not flying triple aces after all.

3. Your theories are way off the mark and there are simply no imperial lists competitive at the highest level because the empire's main strength (the aces) is next worthless right now and nothing else that imperials have can quite cut it.

Which of those do you find most likely to be true?

Edited by Lightrock

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