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Harpoon Missile Question

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So, you attack ship A with a Harpoon missile from ship B and that ship already has a harpoon condition card on it.  If the condition is met to deal it a face down damage card and that damage card destroys the ship would the second Harpoon condition card be assigned before it blows up to allow the exploding ship to deal the damage for that part of the condition card or since it's destroyed you can't use that condition?

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Answer unknowable, ask again later.

If it was 'after attacking', then it'd trigger at a point just before you remove ships (step 8), so double-harpooning someone is definitely doable.

It isn't; it's a new wording we've not seen to date. "After an attack is resolved", to me, involves all stages to the attack (needs clarifying, but makes sense), which includes step 10 - removing destroyed ships. Which means the destroyed ship is removed before harpooned condition #2 can be applied.

That is, however, my opinion, and subject to modification when we get further clarification.

For that matter, this is the first non-unique condition to exist, I think......it's not impossible they might rule you can't have the same condition twice simultaneously (although at the moment nothing in the rules prevents it).

 

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Follow the Timing Chart and carefully read both the Harpoon Missile and "Harpooned!" condition cards. 

Ship A attacks Ship B with Harpoon Missile. Ship B already has the "Harpooned!" conditionn from a previous attack. 

Between step 6 and 7 the players determine if the attack hits. If it hits, and there is an uncancelled (crit) result, then the first part of the previously assigned "Harpooned!" condition resolves. This includes discarding the first condition card. If the attack hits, and there were no uncancelled (crit) results, then the first part of the condition does nothing.

Step 8 makes sense for applying the "after the attack resolves" part of Harpoon Missile. Some abilities say "after you perform an attack" (Ruthlessnes for example) and these also resolve in step 8 with other "after attacking abilities. So there is a precedent that you don't need the exact wording "after attacking" for an ability to apply in step 8. I'll proceed based on that reasoning, with acknowledgement to the counterpoint from @Magnus Grendel. It is possible FFG might eventually rule that "after this attack resolves" means after step 10, but this would be inconsistent with existing cards and rules.

So back on track: Ship A gets to step 8 and assigns the "Harpooned!" condition to Ship B. Assuming there were no uncancelled (crit) results, then Ship B now has 2 copies of "Harpooned!" assigned.

At step 10 Ship B is destroyed, and any copies of "Harpooned!" will resolve.

It is important to note, that whether or not there was an uncancelled (crit), the end result is the same as long as Ship B is destroyed by the attack. Both copies of "Harpooned!" will do splash damage, not necessarily at the same time.

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Yes it would because the harpoon missile card says "After the attack resolves, assign the Harpooned! condition card"
Considering the condition is looking for an uncancelled crit, it happens in the Step 6-7 point of the chart (as you remove them once they deal damage). Condition is applied after the entirety of the attack, which is after the window where the first condition would be removed.

Applying the condition before the ship is removed is ambiguous though. Usually, yes it would apply, but its worded differently than other "after attack" effects, which leads me to think no it doesnt since removing the ship is still part of the timing chart

Edited by Vineheart01

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4 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:

So this missiles is really more creep isn't it?

 

4 dice, don't need to spend TL (but can to ensure more damage) then it damages everyone in range one if you suffer a crit, and to get rid of it you need to perform an action that will deal a face down damage 50% of the time?

 

Yes. But I have to give them one thing: it is not necessarily massive creep, just much. Because the 4 dice for 4points at range 2-3 with unspent TL is better but ok, I can accept that. But this card adds either  a potential additional damage or costs an action. Both are strong.

And then it also adds splash damage. They could have seriously left the splash damage out and the missile would have been amazing, better than all the others. Here you only need to roll 4 hits instead of 5, and you then get that additional damage or action denial.

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3 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

As it is now, yes, probably. But adding another 5pt missile that noone plays wouldn't help, so instead I had hoped that the 4pt missile has less effect

To further derail this topic (sorry all) this game should really have a dynamic pricing scheme, where things like this get adjusted. 

A quarterly FAQ updating costs would go a long way towards fixing much that is broken in X-Wing. (Or is it now scum wing?)

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Is the issue not "that harpoon missile is OP". But that it's to efficient?

The trend towards missiles and torps requiring a TL but not spending it to shoot should really have been what ordinance was about. You have to set the shot up but that's your penalty, not being able to use them reactively.

If all other missiles and torps (where appropriate) required you to have a TL but not spend the TL to fire would they all see more use? Extra Munitions was introduced as a cost reduction modifier, Chips was introduced to offset the spend tax to fire a missile or torp. There could have been an errata some time ago, removing the requirement to spend the TL.

If there had been, would the issue come down to the cost of Harpoon Missile vs whether or not it's OP? Assault missile has the same effect, for 1 more point with guaranteed return, not reliant on an uncancelled crit. You rarely see it, even when swarms and formation flying was a big thing, it was deemed to expensive and to inefficient with the action tax.

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It says after the attack resolves, so if the attack hit and did not trigger the harpooned condition I guess you could assign two harpoon conditions. It will take 2 actions to get rid of both of them, and a single crit can set them both off.

So a VCX with 3 or 4 harpoons in them, I'd be staying away from that ship.

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14 hours ago, Vineheart01 said:

Only upside to this is you can comically use it against your opponent if he didnt trigger it the same round he applied it to you

I have the Harpooned condition and i dive your face. Shoot me, i dare you, give me that uncancelled crit I DARE YOU

Shhh!

You're not allowed to talk about counter play. The sky is falling crowd absolutely will not tolerate it.

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9 minutes ago, Sekac said:

Shhh!

You're not allowed to talk about counter play. The sky is falling crowd absolutely will not tolerate it.

Yeah heaven forbid this sucker actually has drawbacks!!

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56 minutes ago, Rat of Vengence said:

 

I'm not sure why you'd bother taking any of the other missiles at this point. This one seems too efficient (for someone who hasn't played with/against it yet of course). Thoughts on that?

 

Well, in terms of basic power, it's no different to the other 4-point missiles:

4 dice with a reroll (harpoons/cruise/homing) = 4 dice with a blank-to-hit (concussions) = 4 dice with a focus-to-hit (protons)

The difference is in the 'special abilities':

  • harpoons get the 'attached bomb' ability, which can be good or bad (depending on at what point it goes off - if, as noted, you're essentially handing your opponent deadman's switches and they plow into your squad, you're gonna regret it.
  • Homing missiles get the 'ignore evades' ability, but do pay a point for it.
  • Cruise Missiles get potentially a 5th die, but do limit your manouvring.
  • Concussions are nice not because the ability is powerful, but because it doesn't conflict with rerolls (from, say, predator) or focus tokens/glitterstim, meaning that theoretically you can stack all three of them onto the same attack for as close to 4 garuanteed hits as makes no odds.
  • Proton torpedoes ability is less useful (because it doesn't stack with focus tokens well) but it does get you that lovely automatic critical. Combined with guidance chips, that can hurt a low agility big ship badly.

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34 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Concussions are nice not because the ability is powerful, but because it doesn't conflict with rerolls (from, say, predator) or focus tokens/glitterstim, meaning that theoretically you can stack all three of them onto the same attack for as close to 4 garuanteed hits as makes no odds.

There's a slight conflict in that you expect 1 blank on a 4 dice attack. So if you have a focus, you'd only use the ability if that die rolls another blank. This makes the investment in concussion missiles less attractive, perhaps, in the case where you have focus+TL or focus+Predator?

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15 minutes ago, Verlaine said:

There's a slight conflict in that you expect 1 blank on a 4 dice attack. So if you have a focus, you'd only use the ability if that die rolls another blank. This makes the investment in concussion missiles less attractive, perhaps, in the case where you have focus+TL or focus+Predator?

I'm not quite sure what you mean.

The elusive 'average' 4 dice roll is 2 hits/crits (50%), 1 focus (25%), 1 blank (25%). 

With concussions, you get 2 hits/crits, 1 focus (which you can spend a focus on), 1 blank (which you can use concussion missiles' ability on), to take all 4 to hits or crits. 

It's why concussions were always than protons if you have the ability to get a  target lock and focus (or equivalent) at the same time (which vader, who they were released with, did).

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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6 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I'm not quite sure what you mean.

The elusive 'average' 4 dice roll is 2 hits/crits, 1 focus, one blank. 

With concussions, you get 2 hits/crits, 1 focus (which you can spend a focus on), 1 blank (which you can use concussion missiles' ability on), to take all 4 to hits or crits. 

It's why concussions were always than protons if you have the ability to get a  target lock and focus (or equivalent) at the same time (which vader, who they were released with, did).

I mean that if you have to choose between harpoons and concussions, then harpoons give you the ability to use the reroll because you still have the TL. So the ability to change one blank is less necessary; 75% chance that the blank won't be another blank. Predator: same story (assuming only one blank in the first place). I think that the odds you'd rather have CM's when you chose harpoons are rather small.

Edited by Verlaine

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