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Harpoon Missiles vs Fair Ship Rebels

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20 minutes ago, ModernPenguin said:

If you spend 12 points of your precious aces on owning one specific list, you are going to have a bad time at a tournament . In casual? Sure you might wreck that list with your specific list.  Just like someone bringing a deci with Vader and gunner against your aces . 

I've not tried building it, but I think there's some existing alpha lists that can adapt/adopt Harpoons pretty readily, especially if Guidance Chips is feeding them crits.

Like, people lost their minds at how good Cruise Missiles were and Harpoon Missile is already basically better at being a missile even before you get to the splashy bit.

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Just now, haslo said:

I actually like that bit, because it's exactly what made the Assault Missiles nearly unplayable: You only play the Assault Missiles only for the splash, and thus it's absolutely useless when you bring it against anything that isn't a swarm that flies in formation (which they really don't have to do any more if they're not based around Howlrunner or Biggs, particularly since Swarm Leader). Harpoon Missile looks to be useful against everything, with the added bonus of adding splash damage.

I just feel like the balance of it is off, in the design.  The bit of it that's really good is the generic missile bit and the bit of it that's really clunky and awkward is the bit that you're supposedly choosing it to use, which is the splash damage.  If you really want to splash damage then Assault Missiles are bad but still better than this.  If you aren't actually bothered about splash damage maybe you use this, just because it's a point cheaper than Homing Missile.

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Has it been confirmed that you can apply the condition card three times to the same target? I know it doesn't say you can't, but my thought is an FAQ will come out to say, once a target has a condition card attached, it cannot be the target of the same condition card. If this is the case and you target 3 different ships with your 3xharpoon list, unless they are stressed, they will just action to discard the condition and forgo an action for a turn. but this may be what you want anyway. 

A Talonbane Harpoon carrier with a Jestero Cruise carrier, could be an interesting mix. I think some people smarter than me will be going through what synchs well with this missile already, rather than just spewing out three of the same missile carriers. 

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4 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I just feel like the balance of it is off, in the design.  The bit of it that's really good is the generic missile bit and the bit of it that's really clunky and awkward is the bit that you're supposedly choosing it to use, which is the splash damage.  If you really want to splash damage then Assault Missiles are bad but still better than this.  If you aren't actually bothered about splash damage maybe you use this, just because it's a point cheaper than Homing Missile.

Exactly. Its only real weakness against the homing missile is allowing your opponent to spend evade tokens. It's still a 4-dice secondary weapon and worth packing just for that; the splash damage is just a bonus (a reliable bonus if you have guidance chips and a 3-dice attack). Yes, cruise missiles are a point cheaper still, but they suffer from restricting your 'attack run'.

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7 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Exactly. Its only real weakness against the homing missile is allowing your opponent to spend evade tokens. It's still a 4-dice secondary weapon and worth packing just for that; the splash damage is just a bonus (a reliable bonus if you have guidance chips and a 3-dice attack). Yes, cruise missiles are a point cheaper still, but they suffer from restricting your 'attack run'.

Yeah, this is the Plasma Torpedoes of missile slots - the one you play all the time by default unless you've got a really good reason not to.  If nothing else they burn an action removing the harpoon.

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13 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

 ... Yeah.

I'm fairly certain that Guns for Hire is the end of (competitive) X-Wing for me until 2.0.  It's not just the ridiculously overpowered ships and upgrades, it's the ridiculous complexity of them (Harpoon Missiles is just surreal), and it's the way the developers seem caught in an out-of-control oscillation, snapping back and forth between overpowered combo to overpowered combo, everything getting worse and worse.

Call it my vote of no confidence.

Well worded.....agreed. 

In fact, I was there at the release of "Selfishness"....FFG is just that currently. ?

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37 minutes ago, ModernPenguin said:

If you spend 12 points of your precious aces on owning one specific list, you are going to have a bad time at a tournament . In casual? Sure you might wreck that list with your specific list.  Just like someone bringing a deci with Vader and gunner against your aces . 

I argue that these 12points are not really wasted because imperial alphastrike is a thing anyway. Might as well select the missile that gives a clear edge against Biggs.

34 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

1) all the recent ordnance are a bit too good, too easy to roll a bunch of dice and multi-mod them.  4 red dice with not spending your TL is really really good, but it's also something we've seen before.

2) the actual Harpoon bit is really clunky in mechanics but fine in power level.

I don't mind the unspent TL, and I'm also fine with a 4pt 4dice range2-3 unspentTL missile. But Harpoon adds so much on top. The condition card has three effects. The removal and one of the others would be sufficient and already quite good in my opinion.

32 minutes ago, haslo said:

Harpoon Missile looks to be useful against everything, with the added bonus of adding splash damage.

 

8 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Like, people lost their minds at how good Cruise Missiles were and Harpoon Missile is already basically better at being a missile even before you get to the splashy bit.

5 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

If you aren't actually bothered about splash damage maybe you use this, just because it's a point cheaper than Homing Missile.

3 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Exactly. Its only real weakness against the homing missile is allowing your opponent to spend evade tokens. It's still a 4-dice secondary weapon and worth packing just for that; the splash damage is just a bonus (a reliable bonus if you have guidance chips and a 3-dice attack). Yes, cruise missiles are a point cheaper still, but they suffer from restricting your 'attack run'.

That's precisely what I'm afraid of. And  the way I see it there is a good incentive at the moment to care about the splash: FSR.

Even before there was a slight movement towards imperial high-PS alphastrike lists. That just got a bit better

2 minutes ago, Archangelspiv said:

Has it been confirmed that you can apply the condition card three times to the same target? I know it doesn't say you can't, but my thought is an FAQ will come out to say, once a target has a condition card attached, it cannot be the target of the same condition card. If this is the case and you target 3 different ships with your 3xharpoon list, unless they are stressed, they will just action to discard the condition and forgo an action for a turn. but this may be what you want anyway. 

You're completely right. Harpooned is the first non-unique condition, so who knows? It would be an obvious and easy correction, and still keep it relevant as far as I'm concerned - the missile is still good, you can still profit off the condition, and the second harpoon might already trigger the first anyway.

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5 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Not only that, but also because Harpoons are a ridiculous form of complexity creep and ordinary power creep. The basically rereleased AM but cheaper, dealing more damage and keeping the TL. Those - next to the problem with swarms - are also reasons why Harpoons are not a well designed way to take on FSR.

So I guess that's a no, you haven't considered (and apparently refuse to consider) not flying in a tight formation with swarms, or using the harpooned condition to your advantage as a swarm player.

It's hard to tell if the sky is falling if your head is buried in the sand. 

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1 minute ago, Sekac said:

So I guess that's a no, you haven't considered (and apparently refuse to consider) not flying in a tight formation with swarms, or using the harpooned condition to your advantage as a swarm player.

It's hard to tell if the sky is falling if your head is buried in the sand. 

Oh, you guess wrong. But I'm happy to help you feel superior.

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30 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Exactly. Its only real weakness against the homing missile is allowing your opponent to spend evade tokens. It's still a 4-dice secondary weapon and worth packing just for that; the splash damage is just a bonus (a reliable bonus if you have guidance chips and a 3-dice attack). Yes, cruise missiles are a point cheaper still, but they suffer from restricting your 'attack run'.

It can also be up in your face though, because the opponent can fly the ship into you and a critical will set it off 

It's a very clunky and difficult to control condition unless you can concentrate the missile and a guaranteed crit on to the target.

 

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Just now, ficklegreendice said:

It's a very clunky and difficult to control condition unless you can concentrate the missile and a guaranteed crit on to the target.

like Advanced Targeting Computer, Backdraft, A score to settle, Palp, or one of the many many crit-chasing cards that FFG tries to stuff into our faces since I don't know when? :P

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Just now, Deadfool said:

I have nothing useful to add to this other than to point out that all your mums love splash damage.

Nice.

 

I for one don't understand how "harpooned" somehow = splash damage.

 

Use your harpoon and tow cables! It will splash the damage to the other AT-ATs walking in formation! Wait...

 

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3 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

like Advanced Targeting Computer, Backdraft, A score to settle, Palp, or one of the many many crit-chasing cards that FFG tries to stuff into our faces since I don't know when? :P

Still need to shoot with both and hit with both

Plus probably need either deadeye or VI just to fire the thing against dengar it nym 

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2 minutes ago, HammerGibbens said:

I for one don't understand how "harpooned" somehow = splash damage.

Exactly. It's such a weird thematic leap that it certainly doesn't justify the power and complexity creep. By far my least favorite card(s) already.

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4 minutes ago, HammerGibbens said:

Nice.

 

I for one don't understand how "harpooned" somehow = splash damage.

 

Use your harpoon and tow cables! It will splash the damage to the other AT-ATs walking in formation! Wait...

 

It's an explosive harpoon.  That only explodes when you shoot it.  Because plot device.

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14 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

I'm  for the first time really disliking a new card and thinking it's a bad idea. So please convince me that it's not the case and the sky isn't falling.

I'll do my best (I did not have the time to read everyone else's stuff, so bear with me):

1 - This is actually a question: can you be assigned the same condition card more than once and if you do, does it trigger twice?  I seem to remember that stacking dead man's switch twice on a lancer only inflicted 1 damage when dead.  I could be wrong, so if anyone can enlighten me, please do.

2 - Ships that do not fly in formation do not need to worry about this.  Some ships, like Nym, wants to fly within range 1 of the enemy formation to drop his bombs, so if he has a harpoon in his gut, that's another potential source of damage to the enemy if he gets shot.

3 - Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but the "harpooned" state only applies once the attack is resolved.  That includes after the last step which is removing destroyed ships.  This means that if a missile destroys the target with the initial damage, the harpooned state does not apply, so no area damage will follow.  In other words, if your target does not survive the missile hit, the area damage effect does not apply.

4 - Depending on how you see it, the enemy could be "gifting" your unit with the equivalent of a dead man's switch.  Not fun when you were flying in formation, but potentially useful in some builds (it is a 2 point upgrade).

That's all I can think of for now.

 

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21 minutes ago, HammerGibbens said:

Nice.

 

I for one don't understand how "harpooned" somehow = splash damage.

 

Use your harpoon and tow cables! It will splash the damage to the other AT-ATs walking in formation! Wait...

 

since when has the American harpoon anti ship missile ever had a tow cable?  Pretty sure it's splash damage is pretty big........

Even then regular harpoons have had explosives or rocket propulsion attached as necessary for the last 200 or so years.

Edited by Ralgon

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1 minute ago, Ralgon said:

since when has the American harpoon missile ever had a tow cable?  Pretty sure it's splash damage is pretty big........

Even then regular harpoons have had explosives or been rocket propulsion attached for the last 200 or so years.

There's this movie called "star wars" and it takes place a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far from America ?

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Instead of using explosives tjat blow up immediately, they use explosives tjat blow up on a delay, for no reason I can tell.  Maybe they're shoddy.  It's like they forgot a "1 damage only" limitation.  From the rules, they have the same explosive load as a stock comcussion missile, but they have another pack of delay explosives that survive the impact, but not a followup shot.  

Whatever. 

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Just now, HammerGibbens said:

There's this movie called "star wars" and it takes place a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far from America ?

So as long as it's as far as possible from reality, then. Makes even more sense?

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8 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Still need to shoot with both and hit with both

Plus probably need either deadeye or VI just to fire the thing against dengar it nym 

Higher PS usually doesn't need deadeye, so VI/adaptability should be enough. I don't know yet about other missile carriers, but I think I've shown that Vader and QD will hit. Both have over 90% chance of 4 hits with the missile, and then later again an over 90% chance for 2+ hits. That's not guaranteed, but it's quite solid. QD will always get a crit against his ASTS target, and Vader will always get a crit after he shot the harpoon. So that too looks to be quite solid.

5 minutes ago, dotswarlock said:

1 - This is actually a question: can you be assigned the same condition card more than once and if you do, does it trigger twice?  I seem to remember that stacking dead man's switch twice on a lancer only inflicted 1 damage when dead.  I could be wrong, so if anyone can enlighten me, please do.

That's a good point. Maybe Harpooned can be stacked,, maybe not. It looks like a very easy "fix" to me, so my fingers are crossed that FFG will do the sensible thing.

6 minutes ago, dotswarlock said:

2 - Ships that do not fly in formation do not need to worry about this.  Some ships, like Nym, wants to fly within range 1 of the enemy formation to drop his bombs, so if he has a harpoon in his gut, that's another potential source of damage to the enemy if he gets shot.

Also a good point. It does banish formation flying though, which I think is negative.

8 minutes ago, dotswarlock said:

3 - Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but the "harpooned" state only applies once the attack is resolved.  That includes after the last step which is removing destroyed ships.  This means that if a missile destroys the target with the initial damage, the harpooned state does not apply, so no area damage will follow.  In other words, if your target does not survive the missile hit, the area damage effect does not apply.

The jury is still out on that one, too, as far as I understand. @Magnus Grendel explained it well in another thread. Even so, this would let both Rex and Jess survive at 1HP, Biggs at 3. The next round of attacks can easily end the game because Jess will most likely not use selflessness anymore.

9 minutes ago, dotswarlock said:

4 - Depending on how you see it, the enemy could be "gifting" your unit with the equivalent of a dead man's switch.  Not fun when you were flying in formation, but potentially useful in some builds (it is a 2 point upgrade).

Yes, unless he has reliable means to cause a crit. In any way you have to stick close to them as soon as you hit - and that's certainly interesting.

Thanks though, you made some good points.

5 minutes ago, Ralgon said:

since when has the American harpoon missile ever had a tow cable?  Pretty sure it's splash damage is pretty big........

Even then regular harpoons have had explosives or rocket propulsion attached as necessary for the last 200 or so years.

Maybe because Star Wars very famously features "harpoons" in a movie, and there they have a cable...?

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1 hour ago, Biophysical said:

Instead of using explosives tjat blow up immediately, they use explosives tjat blow up on a delay, for no reason I can tell.  Maybe they're shoddy.  It's like they forgot a "1 damage only" limitation.  From the rules, they have the same explosive load as a stock comcussion missile, but they have another pack of delay explosives that survive the impact, but not a followup shot.  

Whatever. 

 

Yeah... This should have definitely been a "cancel all die results and deal 1 damage and a condition card to the defender", missile. There is absolutely no reason to carry concussion, assault, or even Homing missiles anymore.  I think I would even prefer this missile to cruise missiles. While they don't have the potential to hit quite as hard, it will be an easier missile to get off a shot. The condition card and potential splash damage is just a bonus.

Edited by Jo Jo

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