Vaksai (News)

[vonstryker 23]

5 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Isn't the condition card discarded after one crit?

yes, imagine using Kylo and Wampa 

Edited August 15, 2017 by vonstryker

[Scumwing Apologist 223]

43 minutes ago, Major Tom said:

Please let me have Pulse Ray Shield on Omega Leader.  Only fair and wholesome things could follow.

I really dont think it would be that crazy. OL already has powerful counterplay in the form of bombs. It's no worse than regen Miranda, and it requires him taking an ion token to pull off.

[UnitOmega 2,818]

I think there's something to be said for Concussion Missile still being dirt simple. No special effects, just a built in mod (though I assume spending a TL to reroll multiple dice is mathematically better than just switching one blank to one hit) you don't have to do anything else in your list to set it up. The game doesn't necessarily reward straightforwardness right now, but that's not to say it couldn't. I would assume though if all "spend TL" munitions get obsoleted, something would probably come into play to bring them back, similar to Guidance Chips for munitions in general.

As an AoE effect, I think on paper Assault Missiles is "better" and thus costs a point more because it just happens. You catch an enemy in formation and hit, and boom, it's done. Harpoon Missile requires setup to activate or just RNG, and your opponent can skip an Action to risk hurting just them to negate the actual AoE part. And you can bet your bottom dollar some day there will be an upgrade to positively effect dice rolls on crit cards and condition effects which might mitigate that risk. Harpoon's power isn't actually DoT or AoE it'll be disruption. You slap a ticking timebomb on the enemy ship, probably pretty easy with 4 dice and a TL to spend, now the opponent has to work around it. I doesn't just affect their play up until the point you fire it (once the assault missile is used it's used, unless you miss and have failsafe) but affects it after as well. We'll probably need to see how willing people are to take that action and dice roll risk in play to see how long it sticks, I expect the human element will pretty strongly affect how useful Harpoons are. 

[GreenDragoon 9,567]

17 minutes ago, vonstryker said:

yes, imagine using Kylo and Wampa 

So let me get this straight:

you attack, 4 reds plus TL, so an expected 3 hits, defender takes x damage. He can remove the condition with a 50% chance of a damage.

on a following attack, if you roll a crit, he'll additionally to the crit get 1 facedown card (through shields!) and all in range 1 get an additional damage.

OR 

if the target is destroyed, all in range 1 get a damage

So the output is initial damage x + 'ships in range 1' + possibly 1 for a crit/removing the condition

Right?

Chasing these crits gets more and more important... And against a popular 4ship list, x+4 damage seems realistic. That's a lot! Seriously, 3 cruise for 12-15 hits looked bad and powercreepy. But 3 harpoons for 9-12 +12 is much worse!

Not to mention that now, after the permanent death of aces by Nym, the other rare but oldschool archetype of the swarm can also be burried for good.

[Vineheart01 6,403]

edit: derp nvm

Edited August 15, 2017 by Vineheart01

[GreenDragoon 9,567]

Sorry, I need to process that.

Cruise missiles are seen as red dice creep. 4-5 hits are to be expected with GC and TL. But I've often seen the opinion that even a 4dice attack can be worth it for just 3 points.

Here we got Harpoons, for 4 points. The two negatives are the required (but unspent!) TL and no shots in range 1. Harpoon on Vader with GC and TL and Focus has 4 hits with 97% chance, ie almost always.

These 4 hits can be evaded, thankfully. And in the absolute worst case where he removes the condition before you shoot again AND does not roll hit/crit, you only got a 4 dice attack for 4 points. Or in other words: you wasted a single point compared to cruise missiles.

But if he does a roll hit/crit then it was worth it.

And if you shoot again, with ATC, RAC, Backdraft, or use Vader crew, or anything that gives a crit (ASTS?), he will take an additional damage, through shields. Which means the missile was worth it.

But that's not all, no. The ships in range 1 also get a damage. Nevermind doing damage to formations and swarms (I do mind!), you couldn't use that cleverly for Quickdraw, could you?

But that's not all, no. If the ship dies without a crit, the same happens!

But that's not all, and I present to you the ultimative NPE:

2 ships with Harpoons, one ship carrying Kylo Ren. Harpoons are fired. Some source for a crit and BOOOM!

3 damage through shields in the first turn.

Xwings gone. t70 gone. A/B/E/Z-Wing gone. Attackshuttle gone.

Defender gone. TIE/sf gone. Advanced gone. 

And dealing a damage to those around.

I think I'm missing something.

[Vineheart01 6,403]

....it isnt unique...i didnt notice that.....its highly unlikely for it to happen, but he's right you can stack this thing and a single crit would set off all Harpooned! conditions (more than likely one would miss, 2nd would kill it outright anyway which means no ship to assign the second condition to, or it would trigger the first because there was a crit involved)

Wtf....

Edited August 15, 2017 by Vineheart01

[spartan1128 186]

while it does look possible for this to occur it takes A LOT to set that up.

You need at least 2 ships with cruise missiles and a third ship carrying Kylo and the Empire is sorely lacking in good crew carriers (they are all very expensive except for the TIE Shuttle which is easy to kill).

You need to assign the IWSYTDS condition to the target ship

You need to land the first hit (assigning the first Harpooned condition)

You need to land the second hit (assigning the second Harpooned condition) WITHOUT letting a crit get through so you don't trigger the first Harpooned condition

You need to land a third hit from another ship and it must get a crit through

[GreenDragoon 9,567]

My point is actually this: Harpoon missiles are not bad missiles. They are already ok as 4dice attacks - a bit pricey, but ok. But potentially they are devastating! So the opportunity cost is not as high as with previous missiles with a similar effect.

Let's look at FSR - or any swarm, or any list that relies on formation (Snapcracklepop anyone? No?)

Vader/Inquisitor/QD at PS10/10/9. Vader has 97% for 4 hits, QD/Inqui have 74% (and 94% for 3 or 4 hits), so they will all hit against most lists. QD has ASTS, so his chances for a crit are quite good. But even without that we're looking at 10-12 hits. Chances to blow out one ship are quite high, especially if QD scores a crit which deals the facedown from the previous two - regardless of Selflessness or DTF if I understand that right (meaning Jess is 1 damage away from being destroyed, or Rex just dies). Now if the ship explodes then each other in formation takes 3 damage! That's blowing up most swarms and ending the game right there. FSR takes another 9 damage distributed on the other ships. So Rex dies, Biggs and Jess are low. But that's the prime list right now. I'm way more concerned about other lists.

There are some cool guys running 4+ ship lists. The Harpoon gets mindblowingly good against them, and is doing ok as normal alphastrike weapon.

So my expectation is that the potential advantage against FSR plus the easier use (not as predictable as cruise) is more than enough to outweigh the 3 points and possibly 3-5 damage less. Thoughts?

[spartan1128 186]

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

My point is actually this: Harpoon missiles are not bad missiles. They are already ok as 4dice attacks - a bit pricey, but ok. But potentially they are devastating! So the opportunity cost is not as high as with previous missiles with a similar effect.

Let's look at FSR - or any swarm, or any list that relies on formation (Snapcracklepop anyone? No?)

Vader/Inquisitor/QD at PS10/10/9. Vader has 97% for 4 hits, QD/Inqui have 74% (and 94% for 3 or 4 hits), so they will all hit against most lists. QD has ASTS, so his chances for a crit are quite good. But even without that we're looking at 10-12 hits. Chances to blow out one ship are quite high, especially if QD scores a crit which deals the facedown from the previous two - regardless of Selflessness or DTF if I understand that right (meaning Jess is 1 damage away from being destroyed, or Rex just dies). Now if the ship explodes then each other in formation takes 3 damage! That's blowing up most swarms and ending the game right there. FSR takes another 9 damage distributed on the other ships. So Rex dies, Biggs and Jess are low. But that's the prime list right now. I'm way more concerned about other lists.

There are some cool guys running 4+ ship lists. The Harpoon gets mindblowingly good against them, and is doing ok as normal alphastrike weapon.

So my expectation is that the potential advantage against FSR plus the easier use (not as predictable as cruise) is more than enough to outweigh the 3 points and possibly 3-5 damage less. Thoughts?

I agree. The thing that makes Harpoon Missiles so good is that they are pretty good even without the condition and splash damage. Assault missiles don't see play because they are ONLY worth it if you fight a swarm.

[GreenDragoon 9,567]

9 hours ago, spartan1128 said:

I agree. The thing that makes Harpoon Missiles so good is that they are pretty good even without the condition and splash damage. Assault missiles don't see play because they are ONLY worth it if you fight a swarm.

I hope we are wrong. Because that would mean that FFG finished off my two most favorite archetypes in this game within a single month.

Swarms were struggling anyway but are simply unplayable if Harpoons ever take off.
Traditional Aces were struggling anyway but are simply unplayable against Nym.
Chances to encounter both Nym and Harpoons in a tournament could get way too high.

On the plus side, it looks to me like Alphastrike-Aces will really be the next new Imperial thing. That might be my new list type.

 

Edit (t+17min): to further illustrate my point, against FSR2/stage4 with Jess+Selflessness, Lowhhrick+DTF. Also I assume here that Jess gets 2 evades on every shot.

• Target Jess, give her ASTS from QD
• Vader rolls 4 hits, gets in 2 hits, 1 can be tanked by the reinforce. So 1 hit + condition. HP: 3/2
• Inqui rolls 4 hits, gets in 2 hits + condition. HP: 3/0
• QD gets in 1 hits and a crit. Lowhhrick draws the crit, but it still triggers harpooned. Jess can use IA. Rex at 1/0 HP. Biggs at 3/0. Jess at 1/0. Lowhhrick at 6/0.

But if Jess does not have 2 evades on every shot, then she dies, and Rex dies, and Biggs is on 2 HP. After the first round of shots.

I just want to reiterate that every other 4 ship list flying in formation is off worse.

 

2. edit (t+39min): another thought: If Jess survives that last shot with 1HP and a used astromech, then she can't try to roll to remove the condition. Because doing so will destroy her and Rex with a 50% chance. So once the 3 HP of biggs are gone (which should be easy enough), Jess can be shot. Which kills her. Which deals a damage to Rex and Lowhhrick, which kills Rex too.

Or Jess breaks formation and she dies even faster.

3. edit (t+8h): looks like the condition is assigned after step 10, so the last one will only be triggered if Jess survives.

Edited August 16, 2017 by GreenDragoon

[Rinzler in a Tie 1,892]

This is great news.

[RufusDaMan 2,299]

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

Sorry, I need to process that.

Cruise missiles are seen as red dice creep. 4-5 hits are to be expected with GC and TL. But I've often seen the opinion that even a 4dice attack can be worth it for just 3 points.

Here we got Harpoons, for 4 points. The two negatives are the required (but unspent!) TL and no shots in range 1. Harpoon on Vader with GC and TL and Focus has 4 hits with 97% chance, ie almost always.

These 4 hits can be evaded, thankfully. And in the absolute worst case where he removes the condition before you shoot again AND does not roll hit/crit, you only got a 4 dice attack for 4 points. Or in other words: you wasted a single point compared to cruise missiles.

But if he does a roll hit/crit then it was worth it.

And if you shoot again, with ATC, RAC, Backdraft, or use Vader crew, or anything that gives a crit (ASTS?), he will take an additional damage, through shields. Which means the missile was worth it.

But that's not all, no. The ships in range 1 also get a damage. Nevermind doing damage to formations and swarms (I do mind!), you couldn't use that cleverly for Quickdraw, could you?

But that's not all, no. If the ship dies without a crit, the same happens!

But that's not all, and I present to you the ultimative NPE:

2 ships with Harpoons, one ship carrying Kylo Ren. Harpoons are fired. Some source for a crit and BOOOM!

3 damage through shields in the first turn.

Xwings gone. t70 gone. A/B/E/Z-Wing gone. Attackshuttle gone.

Defender gone. TIE/sf gone. Advanced gone. 

And dealing a damage to those around.

I think I'm missing something.

Slap Ruthlessness on it, just for fun

[GreenDragoon 9,567]

3 minutes ago, RufusDaMan said:

Slap Ruthlessness on it, just for fun

Turns out it's not even necessary against FSR... Also the idea with Kylo is much worse than just using 3 harpoons.

[Boom Owl 13,232]

Sooooo......I guesss there are some things that make me pause on reading this again. These are not the opinions of an expert a scientist a mathematician or even a tournament ace. 
Im not sure I even fully understand the mechanics and if the odds of making this actually effective in game are all that high. That said....

1. Anything that "assigns" another player damage even if their shields are still up can "feel" odd.  Im in the camp that ISTDS should probably have been set up to only apply the crits effect but not the hull damage.  
2. The splash damage is clearly intended for Biggs/Rex/Low ( probably why this was released)....but I fear they have double tap murdered Swarms in the process of balancing one specific list type. I can't remember the last time I flew against a swarm and didnt have a smile on my face the entire time. Even when im flying stuff that falls apart against them. This seems substantially worse for Tie Fighter's and B-Wings than it realistically will be for Rebel Defense hogs. 
3. Conditions pretty much across the board....are the most complicated time consuming and confusing mechanics to new players. If they never released another condition card again I would be completely fine with it. Guess this is just that constant tug of war of "minimalist & simple & elegant = gud" vs "Cats must haz new stuff right meow!!"

It also seems to do maybe to many things....

1. Does damage from the initial missile shot as normal, without requiring you to spend the TL.
2. Denies the Player Actions next round if they want to flip it
3. Might Auto Damage the Ship it hits in addition to the hits already received from the initial missile shot
4. Might apply splash damage potentially "twice" 

Cautiously optimistic though it looks sorta cool and the set up requirements might be enough to "balance it". Supposes its probably easiest to pull off with Imperials so there is that at least  

 

Edited August 15, 2017 by Boom Owl

[Scumwing Apologist 223]

Man oh man, FFG just can't have a release without it turning into a complete cluster****, can they?

[Ralgon 1,005]

Well, we wanted useable secondary weapons........................

[mxlm 902]

1 hour ago, Vineheart01 said:

....it isnt unique...i didnt notice that.....its highly unlikely for it to happen, but he's right you can stack this thing and a single crit would set off all Harpooned! conditions (more than likely one would miss, 2nd would kill it outright anyway which means no ship to assign the second condition to, or it would trigger the first because there was a crit involved)

Wtf....

 

Well, refer to the reference card for conditions:

 

Conditions[sic] cards are cards assigned by Ship and Upgrade cards that represent persistent game effects.

A Condition card is not in play until a game effect assigns it to a ship. When a Condition card is assigned, its text immediately resolves.

After a ship is assigned a Condition card, assign the associated Condition token to that ship as a reminder of the card's ongoing effect. That token is removed when the Condition is removed. A Condition that has been removed can be assigned again.

Unique Conditions

If one of your unique Conditions is already in play and one of your effects calls for it to be assigned again, remove the Condition card from the original ship and assign it to the new ship.

 

It's not unique because then you could only have one ship Harpooned! at a time. However, while it's not made explicit--and therefore it's all but certain there'll be a FAQ clarifying one way or the other at or after launch--it seems like the wording is implying you are either suffering from a particular condition or you are not. Are you Harpooned!? Then you're Harpooned! Did you get hit by a second Harpoon missile? Then you get assigned the Harpooned! condition. Which you already have.

Maybe it stacks, but the wording is not clear and, bluntly, considering how ludicrous it would be if those missiles did stack I will bet entire cents that when this gets clarified FFG will make it explicit that Conditions are binary, not stacking. 

[xanderf 6,778]

1 hour ago, spartan1128 said:

while it does look possible for this to occur it takes A LOT to set that up.

You need at least 2 ships with cruise missiles and a third ship carrying Kylo and the Empire is sorely lacking in good crew carriers (they are all very expensive except for the TIE Shuttle which is easy to kill).

You need to assign the IWSYTDS condition to the target ship

You need to land the first hit (assigning the first Harpooned condition)

You need to land the second hit (assigning the second Harpooned condition) WITHOUT letting a crit get through so you don't trigger the first Harpooned condition

You need to land a third hit from another ship and it must get a crit through

I don't think that works, no.  The way the rules on condition cards work, it sounds rather like they are...well...conditions.

IE., your ship either is harpooned, or it isn't harpooned - it can't be "multiply harpooned".  Once any harpoon hits it, it gets the 'Harpooned!' condition card - another harpoon hitting it wouldn't add another card or effect.

At least, that's how the condition rules appear to work - I guess it's true that's not explicitly clear, but it's an easy FAQ clarification.

[xanderf 6,778]

...now, all that said (and curses at all the ninjas around here! )...

I don't see anything that would prevent multiple uses in the same turn if the earlier card is cleared.

IE.,

1) Ship A harpoons Howlrunner, condition card is added to her ship

2) Ship B fires a mangler cannon at Howlrunner and gets a crit, everyone in her swarm takes a damage and the condition card is removed.

3) Ship C fires another harpoon at Howlrunner, adds the condition card back to her ship

4) Ship D fires another mangler cannon at Howlrunner and gets a crit, everyone in her swarm takes another damage and the condition card is removed.

(etc)

...that looks legal, based on any reading of condition card usage.  Also improbably difficult enough to pull off that it doesn't feel too OP.

[mxlm 902]

46 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Turns out it's not even necessary against FSR... Also the idea with Kylo is much worse than just using 3 harpoons.

If you're trying to AoE the entire group down, Ruthlessness is necessary (and not actually sufficient to destroy the whole list in one turn). Nearby ships are assigned a damage. They are not assigned a damage card. Refer back to ISYTD: a crit that hits the shield is still a crit. So if you assign a damage to a ship with shields, it's hitting the shields first. 

[GreenDragoon 9,567]

8 minutes ago, mxlm said:

Maybe it stacks, but the wording is not clear and, bluntly, considering how ludicrous it would be if those missiles did stack I will bet entire cents that when this gets clarified FFG will make it explicit that Conditions are binary, not stacking. 

It can't stack, it would be way too good.

But so far all conditions are unique, this is the first that's not.

[GreenDragoon 9,567]

3 minutes ago, mxlm said:

If you're trying to AoE the entire group down, Ruthlessness is necessary (and not actually sufficient to destroy the whole list in one turn). Nearby ships are assigned a damage. They are not assigned a damage card. Refer back to ISYTD: a crit that hits the shield is still a crit. So if you assign a damage to a ship with shields, it's hitting the shields first. 

Then I made a mistake here
If Jess always rolls 2 evades:

• Vader rolls 4 hits, gets in 2 hits, 1 can be tanked by the reinforce. So 1 hit + condition. Jess' HP: 3/2
• Inqui rolls 4 hits, gets in 2 hits + condition. HP: 3/0
• QD gets in 1 hits and a crit (92% chance). Lowhhrick draws the crit, but it still triggers harpooned. Jess can use IA. Rex at 1/0 HP. Biggs at 3/0. Jess at 1/0. Lowhhrick at 6/0.

[Ralgon 1,005]

The really obscene part here is going to be vaskai swarms such as my triple + ndru After the first missile, the second missile unloads, with a 3 dice primary chimps already has the crit there, so the condition card triggers, removes then gets replaced. Rinse and repeat.

Edit:didn't quite fit. Adjusted list is...

Black sun ace x3

Vaskai

Deadeye/vet instincts/mindlink (take your pick)

Harpoon missiles

Guidance chips

Munitions failsafe

Scavenger crane

 

 

Ndru shulak

Lonewolf/mindlink (to match above)

99/100 depending on ndru's makeup

 

You even get to choose between not needing target locks, ps7!, or double mods at the (minimal) risk of being stress locked out of your missiles for a turn, oh and as long as you don't r3 you get a minimum of 6 harpoons to use.

Edit: on reflection vi/ mindlink are better for fairship/ lowrick for target selection and pushing the damage through the evades, while deadeye is better suited to counter nym and ps11 aces where getting target locks while keeping at useable range for the missles will be difficult

Edited August 16, 2017 by Ralgon

[Dr Zoidberg 3,200]

9 hours ago, dotswarlock said:

A good catch: Jostero can fire his seismic torpedo, cause some damage and then attack before a higher PS ship can move or get a focus/evade token.

But only if the exploding obstacle actually causes damage.  Still, could be fun.  

 

Pity K-Fighters can't take torpedoes...

Edited August 16, 2017 by Dr Zoidberg