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Amraam01

Banning Deployment Cards- Rebel Temporary Alliance?

21 posts in this topic

A thought- with so many Gideons running around on scum lists... what does the community think about an outright ban on this card for organized play?  It was available since the start and made perfect sense back then, because of the very limited pool of scum faction models.  Now, there is a plethora of scum choices and thematically having the scum faction easy access to the entire rebel's lineup and the faction's 2 best units seems unnecessary nowadays for only a 1 point tax.  Luke and Leia working with Jabba?  Blasphemy!  Scum is not exactly hurting anyway, which scum lists consistently overrepresented as seen in last year's worlds and you still have ways through the elite Jawa to bring select Rebels... The Jawa which, by the way, is an excellent design to bring cross faction members similarly to Saska Teft can bring 1 scum.  I love the thematic feel when the designers do this.  

It would force scum players to think of other design other then rebel care packages etc.

Of course, I am never a fan of banhammers, but given Temporary Alliance is only an attachment card, you wont lose access to using a model just a card that is referenced in your build once so the monetary effects are basically null.  

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I too, hate most of the idea of having unlimited access to silly (if mathematically advantageous) allies. Also there's little to be impressed about from a competitive* list these days since the good lists get swapped all over the internet in milliseconds. Anyone can leapfrog off of someone else's calculations and imagination. You ought to organize a tournament at your local store or community center, ban the card in your tournament, and post the results. 

 

*When I was a young man we had much less kind terms for them.

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On 8/15/2017 at 0:39 AM, TheUnsullied said:

3 pages worth of the communities thoughts. 

Ha, looks I am on the same page as a lot of people.   

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I personally do not think there is a problem, but if I'd assume that there actually is a problem with Mercenaries hiring up the Focus Team, I believe the more rational solution than outright banning cards would be to alter Gideon's and/or Threepio's abilities to only work on Rebel figures. In fact, I believe that if Gideon and Threepio were designed today instead of two years ago, they would include that stipulation for certain.

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1 hour ago, player1750031 said:

I personally do not think there is a problem, but if I'd assume that there actually is a problem with Mercenaries hiring up the Focus Team, I believe the more rational solution than outright banning cards would be to alter Gideon's and/or Threepio's abilities to only work on Rebel figures. In fact, I believe that if Gideon and Threepio were designed today instead of two years ago, they would include that stipulation for certain.

Except, logistically you would have to errata multiple cards that people are using on the table.  A simple solution is to get rid the card then no one would see it and you dont have to worry about 'having' the right version.   

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Posted (edited)

I would make it a general rule, that all buffs are in-faction only. Elegant, easily done, no card changes needed.

Edited by DerBaer

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1 hour ago, DerBaer said:

I would make it a general rule, that all buffs are in-faction only. Elegant, easily done, no card changes needed.

I feel like the problem with this change has already come up multiple times. Eventually Rebels would get good enough units(if they haven't already) and then people would bring up issues with Gideon/3PO again. 

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Posted (edited)

There are really a few issues at hand, and many (if not all of them) are not really that bad on their own. But it's the sum of the parts that is too good.

1) Temp Alliance really is an out-dated fix to a core box issue; not enough figure choices for the Scum faction.

2) 3PO and Gideon are such a cheap access to Focus that Scum players are happy to pay the 1 extra for them. Rebels are also happy to have these cheap support units available.

3) 3PO and Gideon give focus too easily. Allowing Scum access to focus in a way that enhances their recently released, very effective units. Rebels also enjoy the benefit, although have had less of a boost of late.

Solutions? Fix one or more of these issues somehow. Ideally, the less fixes to bring balance the better.

1.1) Ban Temp Alliance?
1.2) Errata Temp Alliance to add some restricting clause?

2) Errata 3PO and Gideon to be more cost appropriate?

3.1) Errata 3PO and Gideon to only be able to focus Rebels?
3.2) Errata only Gideon to be Rebel only focus? (this prevents a secondary "nerf" to the Jawa by allowing 3PO to be brought in)

The short answer really, from an entirely neutral point of view, is to ban Temp Alliance. It affects the least amount of cards, but brings the most balance in one single "fix".

Alternatively, you could errata it instead. Maybe change it to only one figure? Or only non-uniques can be brought in? The first option would possibly just cost Scum a little more for the RCP (TA Gideon, Jawa 3PO). The second would pretty much make it not worth playing unless a really good non-unique deployment was released.

Points 2 and 3 are much harder. Not just because you're potentially changing multiple cards to fix a problem. (Precedent in the past shows they're willing to do this, Sabs, Royal Guards & Officers)

2) Hurts Rebels as much, if not more, than Scum (as Rebels are weaker than Scum at the moment).

3) making either a change to how buffs like these work, to make them in line with say Jabba. Target Rebel only would make them effectively worth nothing to Scum. It would also remove a droid for the Jawa to scavenge, which is clearly removing theme. So maybe only Gideon would be affected? RCP would then most likely be Hera & 3PO.

 

In the end, there needs to be a fix. Either FFG bring out more powerful units for Rebels, with clauses about Rebel only abilities so that Scum don't just poach those figures too/instead. Or they fix Gideon, 3PO and/or Temp Alliance.

In short, the easiest fix is to just ban Temporary Alliance. Simple. Easy. No change to wording on, potentially, multiple cards. No additional things that new players have to change to their cards when they buy the core box (or Twin Shadows) (beyond the existing errata)

Edited by Majushi

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Whether Rebels are underpowered or not doesn't make it okay for them to have access to a couple units that almost everyone deems OP. Just think in the future when Rebels are brought up to speed with Mercs and everyone will be running Gideon and 3PO with rebels. 

 

I really only see 2 solutions. Add more strong support figures for Mercs and Imperials to compete for the RCP spots or nerf/ban 3PO and Gideon. 

 

Everything else just delays us until Rebels do become OP and then the need Gideon/3PO train starts again. 

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Posted (edited)

7 hours ago, TheUnsullied said:

Whether Rebels are underpowered or not doesn't make it okay for them to have access to a couple units that almost everyone deems OP. Just think in the future when Rebels are brought up to speed with Mercs and everyone will be running Gideon and 3PO with rebels. 

 

I really only see 2 solutions. Add more strong support figures for Mercs and Imperials to compete for the RCP spots or nerf/ban 3PO and Gideon. 

 

Everything else just delays us until Rebels do become OP and then the need Gideon/3PO train starts again. 

The point is not for each factions to play the same.  Rebels should play differently (Lots of uniques and support at a low cost).  Imperial should play differently (Troops and powerful expensive figures).  Scum should play like scum, Bantha, Rancor, Bounty hunters etc. (Jabba is really a great unit for a RCP replacement).   Why have homogeneity?   Might as well allow you to pick 40 points from any faction.  

Ban Temp alliance, a super easy fix as Majushi spelled out.  

Edited by Amraam01
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7 hours ago, TheUnsullied said:

Whether Rebels are underpowered or not doesn't make it okay for them to have access to a couple units that almost everyone deems OP. Just think in the future when Rebels are brought up to speed with Mercs and everyone will be running Gideon and 3PO with rebels. 

 

I really only see 2 solutions. Add more strong support figures for Mercs and Imperials to compete for the RCP spots or nerf/ban 3PO and Gideon. 

 

Everything else just delays us until Rebels do become OP and then the need Gideon/3PO train starts again. 

So your idea is to ban/nerf things that the weak(est?) faction have going for them, because the strongest faction is abusing them with another card?

Imperials had their time in the sun (4x4 & Spies). Scum have their time now (eQuays & RCP).

But god forbid the Rebels will ever have strong units to pair with their own existing units.

Ban Temporary Alliance. It really is that simple.

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6 minutes ago, Majushi said:

So your idea is to ban/nerf things that the weak(est?) faction have going for them, because the strongest faction is abusing them with another card?

Imperials had their time in the sun (4x4 & Spies). Scum have their time now (eQuays & RCP).

But god forbid the Rebels will ever have strong units to pair with their own existing units.

Ban Temporary Alliance. It really is that simple.

You're saying an ideal state for the game is to have one faction dominate in between each expansion for release? That's ridiculous. That doesn't make tournament/competitive play any more interesting than it is no.

 

If Gideon/3PO/Hera were not the best support figures in the game(without even close seconds imo) then we could actually have interesting choices with TA once more options open up. Most tournaments aren't being played at the highest level the game has to offer. People play lists and figures because they like them and TA gives more options to them. I don't see any reason to take that away because of the problem with a few support units. You never see anyone ******* about the imperial version of TA. Want to guess why? Because it can't bring in the units that are obviously too strong for their cost. 

 

Banning Temp Alliance right now just makes Rebel Hunters the best list in the game. How is that any different from Merc Hunters except taking a little more thought to play well. 

 

What I'd like to happen is have other strong support units in other factions so that the point cost for TA is an actual cost in the decision for which units you bring in. If there were a couple good figures in the support category for 2/3 points in Mercs(and there can and should be soon with the new power token mechanics) then you have an actual choice between what you want to bring into your list and diversity is restored. Hallelujah!

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Can anyone explain to me why you need to start complaining in another thread when there is already one which was already pointed out in the first topic. 

 

But how about this fix : Just ban the whole Rebel faction because they can be used by Mercenarys! Then we have never ever to worry about Gideon anymore.

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15 hours ago, TheUnsullied said:

You're saying an ideal state for the game is to have one faction dominate in between each expansion for release? That's ridiculous. That doesn't make tournament/competitive play any more interesting than it is no.

 

If Gideon/3PO/Hera were not the best support figures in the game(without even close seconds imo) then we could actually have interesting choices with TA once more options open up. Most tournaments aren't being played at the highest level the game has to offer. People play lists and figures because they like them and TA gives more options to them. I don't see any reason to take that away because of the problem with a few support units. You never see anyone ******* about the imperial version of TA. Want to guess why? Because it can't bring in the units that are obviously too strong for their cost. 

 

Banning Temp Alliance right now just makes Rebel Hunters the best list in the game. How is that any different from Merc Hunters except taking a little more thought to play well. 

 

What I'd like to happen is have other strong support units in other factions so that the point cost for TA is an actual cost in the decision for which units you bring in. If there were a couple good figures in the support category for 2/3 points in Mercs(and there can and should be soon with the new power token mechanics) then you have an actual choice between what you want to bring into your list and diversity is restored. Hallelujah!

I think your missing the main message.  No one here is saying banning TA will suddenly make a perfectly balanced game.  The point is the meta is that change is good and shifts to something else.  No one knows if elite rangers will be the best list.  That is bullocks and lacks evidence.  We do have actual evidence that that TA in scum is top tier, just look at the 16 player store champ just posted and see the list for another data point.  So, it makes sense to restore a little balance by getting to the root.  I am sure Scum will still be perfectly playable and winnable still.      

There are PLENTY of good support characters that come close: r2d2, chopper, Jaba, Elite Jawa, Officers, even companions; there are really only a couple are not played much- ugnaughts?  

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I think once we see what comes out with Heart of the Empire - in terms of how the new figures work with Rebels & Empire lists, what new Skirmish Upgrades & Command cards we see for Force Users/Troopers/Brawlers - we can make a better determination if Scum Temporary Alliance needs to be fixed.

Personally, I'm hoping we won't have to worry about taking away Scum Temporary Alliance after the new stuff is implemented. If a change needs to be made, I'm hoping it's limited to Gideon only affecting Rebel units. (Keeping Threepio the same still gives the option for Scum Double Focus, but lacks the mobility that Gideon provides.)

Ultimately what'll help the skirmish game the most will be adjusting the game up to the new power curve set by Jabba's Realm. I'm sure that's happening with Heart of the Empire.

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one more complicated (but not involving changing anything that is present) solution would be to make (with new expansions) Rebels a faction specialising in skirmish upgrades, both for units and others. That way, two factions would have temporary alliances, and Rebels will have something that cannot be borrowed from them.

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I'm just getting into the Skirmish scene, and certainly don't play competitively so this might be an unpopular view. But in terms of just playing the game and enjoying it - I would actually rather see IA Skirmish go the other way and get rid of "factions" all together. With Temporary Alliance everywhere and Jawa's bringing in droids of all flavors, I see the factions as just a silly restriction anyway. Instead I would rather just build the baddest a$$ 40 point army I possibly can, and removing factions allows you to be as creative as possible by opening up unlimited possibilities. 

Before you unload your Pulse Cannons and Force Choke me - hear me out. I've heard the argument "Wait you can't have Luke and Jabba and the Emperor all on the same side - thematically that makes no sense!" Well I played a Rebel list the other day vs another Rebel list and we had Leia on Leia crime as well as Jedi Luke vs ghost of Luke past, so save the thematic argument. In a skirmish its just a battle - team vs team.  I don't get hung up on theme, history, time periods, etc. As a campaign player mostly, I like to preserve those things, but Skirmish it seems silly to fixate on that. I like choices, limiting choices seems bad.

Anyway, that is my thought as I am just getting into Skirmish. I'm going to double move and cower back into my deployment zone now :)

 

 

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My only argument against that would be that then there would be like one dominant list on competitive play level.

 

By having 3 factions, we can expect 3 different dominant lists (at least if factions are balanced against each other). 

TA somewhat blurs distinction between factions. From one-person perspective it may be good, as it opens interesting possibilities for deckbuiliding. From society of gamers perspective it may be bad - more uniformization across the tables.

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On 8/19/2017 at 11:17 AM, totalnoob said:

I'm just getting into the Skirmish scene, and certainly don't play competitively so this might be an unpopular view. But in terms of just playing the game and enjoying it - I would actually rather see IA Skirmish go the other way and get rid of "factions" all together. With Temporary Alliance everywhere and Jawa's bringing in droids of all flavors, I see the factions as just a silly restriction anyway. Instead I would rather just build the baddest a$$ 40 point army I possibly can, and removing factions allows you to be as creative as possible by opening up unlimited possibilities. 

Before you unload your Pulse Cannons and Force Choke me - hear me out. I've heard the argument "Wait you can't have Luke and Jabba and the Emperor all on the same side - thematically that makes no sense!" Well I played a Rebel list the other day vs another Rebel list and we had Leia on Leia crime as well as Jedi Luke vs ghost of Luke past, so save the thematic argument. In a skirmish its just a battle - team vs team.  I don't get hung up on theme, history, time periods, etc. As a campaign player mostly, I like to preserve those things, but Skirmish it seems silly to fixate on that. I like choices, limiting choices seems bad.

Anyway, that is my thought as I am just getting into Skirmish. I'm going to double move and cower back into my deployment zone now :)

 

 

I would go further than that. If you want theme, you must avoid uniques altogether. Now I just need them to make way more Hoth rebel non-uniques.

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