City of the Open Hand - Scorpion Stronghold

[franzvong 249]

+1, 10 / 7 / 10

Action: if you are less honorable than an opponent, bow this stronghold - take 1 honor from that player 

Source: online reviews (facebook picture from Ryan Ritter)

[phillos 1,522]

The more I see of the Scorpion clan the more I'm convinced they are not a Dishonor win clan.  They seem to always want to be less honorable than their opponent.  This effect just seems like a throttle to keep your opponent from rocketing too far ahead in honor.  They've certainly gone all in on the I Can Swim theme for the Scorpion out of core.

[franzvong 249]

Yes, you clearly cannot win by dishonor with this kind of cards, they only keep the pressure on the opponent. Overall not a bad card, but it does not impress me so much (on paper, let's see in game)

[phillos 1,522]

I think you'll love it when playing against the Lion, Crane and Phoenix.  It's easy for their honor to get out of hand if you are drawing a lot.  I think that's really what this card is all about.

[Bayushi Bajie 207]

17 minutes ago, phillos said:

The more I see of the Scorpion clan the more I'm convinced they are not a Dishonor win clan.  They seem to always want to be less honorable than their opponent.  This effect just seems like a throttle to keep your opponent from rocketing too far ahead in honor.  They've certainly gone all in on the I Can Swim theme for the Scorpion out of core.

 

[Zetsubou 257]

14 minutes ago, phillos said:

I think you'll love it when playing against the Lion, Crane and Phoenix.  It's easy for their honor to get out of hand if you are drawing a lot.  I think that's really what this card is all about.

This stronghold alone gives Scorpion a huge edge in the Lion matchup, in my opinion. If you can keep honor neck and neck so many of their bonuses shut down...

[TheItsyBitsySpider 710]

27 minutes ago, phillos said:

The more I see of the Scorpion clan the more I'm convinced they are not a Dishonor win clan.  They seem to always want to be less honorable than their opponent.  This effect just seems like a throttle to keep your opponent from rocketing too far ahead in honor.  They've certainly gone all in on the I Can Swim theme for the Scorpion out of core.

The scorpion are totally a dishonor win clan. Just because their stronghold turns off when they have lower honor doesn't mean it wont drain 3-4 honor from the opponent.

You have to remember that Scorpion seem to have many cards that require dishonoring their own guys, this will lead to them bleeding honor as well, giving them the ability to draw more honor away from the opponent.

This also basically reads, your opponent has to get three-four more honor to win through honor, as this triggers turn one against many clans that would be attempting to race for an honor win.

This stronghold is also an incredible counter to a dishonor mirror match as well, allowing you to negate one honor loss a turn.  

Its pretty fantastic.

[phillos 1,522]

Maybe once we get through a cycle or two it will look like a better strategy.  I don't see how the Scorpion card pool supports a Scorpion player winning via dishonor as of today unless the plan is to dishonor yourself and give your opponent the victory.    Almost all their cards require you to dishonor yourself or just be more dishonorable than your opponent.  That coupled with the fact that all the big power in the Scorpion card pool is in the Conflict deck (compared to the Lion who can generate intense pressure just with their Dynasty deck). It feels like you are swimming against the current.  This stronghold I think just giving you a bigger buffer from you losing to honor and your opponent winning to honor.

Edited August 14, 2017 by phillos

[JolOfNar 53]

seems like scorpion are more of a heavy draw clan. 

 

and if you consider the other clans and their +2 avaerage force boost. then this could be very good if you see the honor point as an extra card, anything giving more than a 2 point swing is a bonus.

[Bayushi Curtin 30]

Opinions on stronghold...

Good but not great. Unlike most other strongholds, this won't help you win battles and you may not be able to use it every turn.

For me the strength is being able to fully utilize cards with honor loss effects like Assassination. I see so many decks running assassination at the moment which I feel is a mistake - it's not free, it costs you 3 cards.

[Mirith 1,304]

Just now, Bayushi Curtin said:

Opinions on stronghold...

Good but not great. Unlike most other strongholds, this won't help you win battles and you may not be able to use it every turn.

For me the strength is being able to fully utilize cards with honor loss effects like Assassination. I see so many decks running assassination at the moment which I feel is a mistake - it's not free, it costs you 3 cards.

I feel like it is the most boring of the strongholds.  Its not weak, but its effect lets you indirectly draw more cards, which I'm not sure scorpion really needed.

[Bayushi Curtin 30]

Scorpion seem to have incredible powerful, but expensive conflict cards, so you will only be able to play a finite amount per turn anyway. If it didn't need to be on lower honor it'd be a much better stronghold.

Agreed that dishonor won't be a win condition yet. As so many people have mentioned if someone doesn't want to be dishonored they won't be - they will just keep bidding 1 and going for air/fire.

[franzvong 249]

3 minutes ago, Bayushi Curtin said:

As so many people have mentioned if someone doesn't want to be dishonored they won't be - they will just keep bidding 1 and going for air/fire.

At the same time, always going for 1 card with 4 conflicts per turn is a recipe for quick defeat...

[phillos 1,522]

8 minutes ago, Bayushi Curtin said:

Scorpion seem to have incredible powerful, but expensive conflict cards, so you will only be able to play a finite amount per turn anyway. If it didn't need to be on lower honor it'd be a much better stronghold.

Agreed that dishonor won't be a win condition yet. As so many people have mentioned if someone doesn't want to be dishonored they won't be - they will just keep bidding 1 and going for air/fire.

I'm certainly learning this the hard way trying to play dishonor Crab.

[Shu2jack 610]

3 minutes ago, franzvong said:

At the same time, always going for 1 card with 4 conflicts per turn is a recipe for quick defeat...

Especially with all those Spies at Court.

[phillos 1,522]

Dishonoring does feel like it's playing into a choke strategy more than anything else.  I keep wanting to play Spies at Court in Crab, but it seems a bit out of place.  I don't mind dishonoring myself in Crab, but the winning a political conflict part sometimes is real tough and deck space in the conflict deck is at a premium even in core only.  That card will be at home in a Scorpion deck that's attempting to choke cards.

Edited August 14, 2017 by phillos

[RandomJC 1,542]

7 minutes ago, franzvong said:

At the same time, always going for 1 card with 4 conflicts per turn is a recipe for quick defeat...

Unless you're Lion.

[JolOfNar 53]

using this a bid of 4 gives a loss of 3 (if they bid 1) reduced to 2, combined with ring of earth, spies at court, or other discard actions,  the opponent finds themselves card locked, and with every card giving maybe 2 points+ of force, they will probs find themselves losing pretty badly.

[Shu2jack 610]

Just now, RandomJC said:

Unless you're Lion.

No, he had it right.

[RandomJC 1,542]

Just now, Shu2jack said:

No, he had it right.

 My lion Deck would disagree.

[Bayushi Curtin 30]

That's my point, you won't dishonor someone as they will always just pick being drained of cards instead of loosing honor when it becomes scary.

If you want to follow a dishonor strategy yourself it requires you to bid low and I don't think Scorpion will do as well without cards as say Lion or Dragon (ancestral for the win).

I'm not saying Scorpion will be bad but I'm saying I don't think they will be winning games off that with dishonor (I'd loved to be proved wrong). 

 

 

[Nickciufi 174]

1 minute ago, Bayushi Curtin said:

That's my point, you won't dishonor someone as they will always just pick being drained of cards instead of loosing honor when it becomes scary.

If you want to follow a dishonor strategy yourself it requires you to bid low and I don't think Scorpion will do as well without cards as say Lion or Dragon (ancestral for the win).

I'm not saying Scorpion will be bad but I'm saying I don't think they will be winning games off that with dishonor (I'd loved to be proved wrong). 

 

 

If you can lose 4 honor to draw 5 cards, then steal 1 honor back, that's pretty good.

[JolOfNar 53]

1 minute ago, Nickciufi said:

If you can lose 4 honor to draw 5 cards, then steal 1 honor back, that's pretty good.

exactly my point, and to take it one step further the net loss on 4 cards is only 2, and that is downright sustainable.

[I Fight Dragons 116]

This is a powerful effect, and not to be underestimated. The "bar" for most of the strongholds is a 2 stat swing, and this seems to be above the bar at a glance to me. Taking 1 honor from your opponent allows you to continue bidding high and essentially recoups the losses for 1 conflict card per turn. I feel the value of a conflict card outweighs or matches a 2 stat swing a lot of the time, so this is a more playful way to to have your stronghold effect the game. It seems clear to me that the scorpion love powerful effects at the cost of honor and bidding high for card draw, so this makes them much more sustainable. Also of note is that it's basically impossible to dishonor them out of the game with just the air ring alone; you'll need other methods to push them down to 0. +1 Province strength is a little sad, but feels right. A+ Stronghold.

[Joe From Cincinnati 769]

Very very strong stronghold.

 

Basically card advantage on a stick. Bid high, use your stronghold to make it as if you bid 1 lower...

 

Maybe the most reliably powerful stronghold available?