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Leowulf

Help countering Archers + Maro?

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Posted (edited)

Hey guys, I play in a two player meta, I took the Daqan stuff. I'm having a lot of trouble countering my friends list, it just does so much ranged damage that it deletes or capacitates any melee threat, and has spare carrion lancers to block should any deathstar or cavalry unit that will achieve anything get close.

List is usually

Maro
4x3 Reanimates

2x1 Archers

2x1 Archers

2x1 Archers

Carrion Lancer

Carrion Lancer

I've tried several lists against this and it's always been quite one sided. The reanimates 'anvil' a unit with or without new trays as needed. The archers and Maro are the real damage dealers, the carrion lancers simply block anything from charging.

I've tried:

Dispatch runner Spearstar list with wind rune cavalry flankers with Kari to snipe.

Double 3x2 spear list where each unit can dispatch runner buff the other combined with MSU Cav (x3).

Double 3x2 spear list with shield wall and lance corporal to strike at initiative 3 and have either 2 or 3 armour to tank the damage as they roll in, 2x1 spearman unit to buff and 2x2 wind rune cavalry to flank, Kari to snipe figure upgrades and hopefully trade with Maro.


All of these have essentially been over by turn 3 with some insane damage from Maro and the Archers as I move into range and everything is quite easily blocked and then finished off. The Waiqar list is very static and can essentially just turtle along a board edge and not move, so it's very hard for him to make any mistakes vsing my force and also makes any terrain placement he has very useful for him, wheras it's really not an advantage to me at all. Clearly I need to shake things up in a major way.

Here's my latest idea.

2x1 Cavlary with Fire rune (3 of them). They can move into range 5 of the spears/maro after Initative 5 and essentially get the alpha strike onto the real damage dealers, then ether trade shots or charge in. Backed up by a spearman unit with a greyhaven chanenller to try and get the red runes going and a big golem unit to charge in. (MSU golems I tried have simply been deleted from existence, but I haven't tried a big block yet).

He's started to take death knights, a smaller reanimates and Ardus (to use combat ingenuity and Master Crafted Weapons on the archers) which seems just as if not more effective.

Any advice is most appreciated! :)

 

Edited by Leowulf

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Seems like the key would be to try and drop those two Carrion Lancers as fast as possible. What is he shielding with the Carrion Lancers? Archers or the Reanimates? 

 

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Posted (edited)

Can you post the upgrades he is using for Maro and the Archers? (And his deathstar?)

I'd try:

1) Kari to snipe (either hearth seeker or dice of fortune). Works well against Worms and Maro. Remember: Maro has only 2 defence and Kari is Brutal 1 and Precise 1. With dice of fortune you can roll easily 3 damage symbols = 6 Damage = 3 Wounds to maro at ini 2. Raising dead is no option any more.

2) Uncontrolled Geomancer against his Deathstar might work. Against 12 Trays, that's 12 Damage = 3 Trays of Reanimates. Put him in a small 4x4 Unit of spearman and try to run this unit near his army to deal a lot of damage before it dies. Maro won't be able to make up for the losses.

3) Play defensively with your spearman (+1 Def always up) to limit the damage from the archers. Lance Corporal might come in handy. Flank with cavalry. Range attack with Kari.

4) If he isn't using Brutal Forces: Manacaller from Greyhaven to shut down the unstable Mana and deny his white dice.

5) Lord Hawthorne to provide inspiration?

6) Might work (never tried): Fire Cav. 2x1 cavalry with fire rune. Can be used to fire back at the archers while advancing. Rune dependent though.

7) Very important: Terrain placement at the start. The 4x3 death star of the reanimates is too fat for most gaps.

Something like this:

http://tabletopadmiral.com/runewars/human/p061u3du05p052u1cu07u42p052u19u07u01p021u13u0ep021u13u0e

Edited by Chaoticus
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Posted (edited)

8 hours ago, Leowulf said:

He's started to take death knights, a smaller reanimates and Ardus (to use combat ingenuity and Master Crafted Weapons on the archers) which seems just as if not more effective.

 

Is he using MCW to add hits to the Archer's attacks? If the answer is yes, ask him to read the card again. It's melee attack, not ranged. All that's doing is passing MCW to Ardus.
 

Other than that maybe if he isn't moving a lot you can go to sides to pickup some objectives you could win on points? Fire Cav sounds fun too. Maybe try to approach him from multiple sides. Moving around obstacles to block LOS to your units. He can't be pointing everywhere and you should be able to dispatch one Worm. Once you get into the Archers, he will need to start turning to face your units. If he's turning, he's not shooting. 

Edited by Polda

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9 hours ago, Sulfurious said:

Seems like the key would be to try and drop those two Carrion Lancers as fast as possible. What is he shielding with the Carrion Lancers? Archers or the Reanimates? 

 

Carrion Lancers shield the Archers and Maro while the Reanimates sit to the side and wait to move in and block when required. Charging those carrion lancers is terrifying because they don't care about the morale test they take from the archers and Maro shooting into their combat. It's like charging a one tray lancer that can output 10-15 damage in retaliation!

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3 hours ago, Polda said:

Is he using MCW to add hits to the Archer's attacks? If the answer is yes, ask him to read the card again. It's melee attack, not ranged. All that's doing is passing MCW to Ardus.
 

Other than that maybe if he isn't moving a lot you can go to sides to pickup some objectives you could win on points? Fire Cav sounds fun too. Maybe try to approach him from multiple sides. Moving around obstacles to block LOS to your units. He can't be pointing everywhere and you should be able to dispatch one Worm. Once you get into the Archers, he will need to start turning to face your units. If he's turning, he's not shooting. 

Ah sorry it's Tempered Steel Weapons that he's using (inspire on first turn with nothing in range, so he gets 2 uses essentially, which is enough!)

I really like that plan, using a screen that can trade ranged damage may be worth if I think (and I think it can) that the units  behind will make mincemeat of the archers once they get there.

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8 hours ago, Chaoticus said:

Can you post the upgrades he is using for Maro and the Archers? (And his deathstar?)

I'd try:

1) Kari to snipe (either hearth seeker or dice of fortune). Works well against Worms and Maro. Remember: Maro has only 2 defence and Kari is Brutal 1 and Precise 1. With dice of fortune you can roll easily 3 damage symbols = 6 Damage = 3 Wounds to maro at ini 2. Raising dead is no option any more.

2) Uncontrolled Geomancer against his Deathstar might work. Against 12 Trays, that's 12 Damage = 3 Trays of Reanimates. Put him in a small 4x4 Unit of spearman and try to run this unit near his army to deal a lot of damage before it dies. Maro won't be able to make up for the losses.

3) Play defensively with your spearman (+1 Def always up) to limit the damage from the archers. Lance Corporal might come in handy. Flank with cavalry. Range attack with Kari.

4) If he isn't using Brutal Forces: Manacaller from Greyhaven to shut down the unstable Mana and deny his white dice.

5) Lord Hawthorne to provide inspiration?

6) Might work (never tried): Fire Cav. 2x1 cavalry with fire rune. Can be used to fire back at the archers while advancing. Rune dependent though.

7) Very important: Terrain placement at the start. The 4x3 death star of the reanimates is too fat for most gaps.

Something like this:

http://tabletopadmiral.com/runewars/human/p061u3du05p052u1cu07u42p052u19u07u01p021u13u0ep021u13u0e

Originally it was like this  http://tabletopadmiral.com/runewars/undead/p101u3du3ap011u26p011u26p011u26p071uEMp071uEMp083u2du02u11
Realised it wasn't a 4x3 but a 3x2 (before the errata we played it that maro could add trays to the side :o

1) Yeah I use Kari like that, problem is she moves so fast. To move into range is a delicate process and only achievable with a shift 1 outside of range 5 on a turn where I don't have iniative, otherwise Maro will easily deal two or three wounds on the round she moves in, combined with blight skill from the lancers and potentially getting killed by archers. Boy does she snipe those necromancers though haha.

I really like your ideas - I've tried parts of them going to give them a go as a cohesive force. Thank you!

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Hawthorne = 3x2 Oathsworn with Rank Discipline and Tempered steel. Do a move 4 + 2 into his formation and a  4 tray dispatch runner spearman do a speed 4 move with special action. You hit them 3 times essentially before they can do anything.

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Posted (edited)

On 8/14/2017 at 1:26 PM, Chaoticus said:

Can you post the upgrades he is using for Maro and the Archers? (And his deathstar?)

I'd try:

1) Kari to snipe (either hearth seeker or dice of fortune). Works well against Worms and Maro. Remember: Maro has only 2 defence and Kari is Brutal 1 and Precise 1. With dice of fortune you can roll easily 3 damage symbols = 6 Damage = 3 Wounds to maro at ini 2. Raising dead is no option any more.

2) Uncontrolled Geomancer against his Deathstar might work. Against 12 Trays, that's 12 Damage = 3 Trays of Reanimates. Put him in a small 4x4 Unit of spearman and try to run this unit near his army to deal a lot of damage before it dies. Maro won't be able to make up for the losses.

 

1) you need 3 accuracy icons to do 3 wounds to something you cannot target, so we're looking at 2-3 attacks with Kari to snipe off Maro.  1 accuracy only lasts until 1 wound is dealt, then it expires, not the whole damage pool. Kari cannot roll 3 dmg + 3 accuracy on a ranged attack, ergo cannot one shot Maro. (apparently this Maro isn't embedded, my bad)

2) geomancers are so fun

Edited by Darthain

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7 hours ago, TallGiraffe said:

Hawthorne = 3x2 Oathsworn with Rank Discipline and Tempered steel. Do a move 4 + 2 into his formation and a  4 tray dispatch runner spearman do a speed 4 move with special action. You hit them 3 times essentially before they can do anything.

I must be misunderstanding - how do the Cavalry attack 3 times here?
Wouldn't they just bump a carrion lancer and take a panic for doing so, then attack once with the dispatch runner (and gain a stun)?

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1 minute ago, Darthain said:

1) you need 3 accuracy icons to do 3 wounds to something you cannot target, so we're looking at 2-3 attacks with Kari to snipe off Maro.  1 accuracy only lasts until 1 wound is dealt, then it expires, not the whole damage pool. Kari cannot roll 3 dmg + 3 accuracy on a ranged attack, ergo cannot one shot Maro.

2) geomancers are so fun

Maro's a solo unit in that build, not embedded into Reanimates. Still, she needs to pull out 10 damage out of her butt to kill him. With her ranged attack she can get up to 6 maximum and there is a tiny chance she could one shot him from Melee via her dumb surge ability. 

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6 minutes ago, Leowulf said:

I must be misunderstanding - how do the Cavalry attack 3 times here?
Wouldn't they just bump a carrion lancer and take a panic for doing so, then attack once with the dispatch runner (and gain a stun)?

Pretty sure he means - Spearmen attack, Dispatch a runner to Cavalry, Cavalry attacks, gets stun, Cavalry activates and attacks. 

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1 minute ago, Polda said:

Pretty sure he means - Spearmen attack, Dispatch a runner to Cavalry, Cavalry attacks, gets stun, Cavalry activates and attacks. 

Ah gotcha.

Yeah its assuming all pieces can get into combat unmolested, which is the part that I'm really struggling with.

The archers + Maro can output Minimum 14 Maximum 30 damage in a volley which is enough to completely neuter a unit as it moves in. Like the average is about 20-22 which is 5-6 trays of cavalry if they don't +1 Def.

I guess the answer is to not let them all target one unit somehow.

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Posted (edited)

7 minutes ago, Leowulf said:

Ah gotcha.

Yeah its assuming all pieces can get into combat unmolested, which is the part that I'm really struggling with.

The archers + Maro can output Minimum 14 Maximum 30 damage in a volley which is enough to completely neuter a unit as it moves in. Like the average is about 20-22 which is 5-6 trays of cavalry if they don't +1 Def.

I guess the answer is to not let them all target one unit somehow.

Do you have pictures of his deployment? Maybe we can find a small exhaust port you can exploit. :D

I am assuming everyone in a tight line with worms on the sides. 

Edited by Polda

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Ok lets do some HTML art :P  Usually like this, the left flank is the weak point right? He usually either just denies it with a board edge or terrain. He is crafty.

AA   AA  AA   M     RRR
    C              C         RRR

         terrain

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1 hour ago, Leowulf said:

Ah gotcha.

Yeah its assuming all pieces can get into combat unmolested, which is the part that I'm really struggling with.

The archers + Maro can output Minimum 14 Maximum 30 damage in a volley which is enough to completely neuter a unit as it moves in. Like the average is about 20-22 which is 5-6 trays of cavalry if they don't +1 Def.

I guess the answer is to not let them all target one unit somehow.

Spearmen move and dispatch runner last initiative, rally next turn and dispatch runner at int3 and cavalry attack at 3. 

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5 hours ago, Polda said:

Maro's a solo unit in that build, not embedded into Reanimates. Still, she needs to pull out 10 damage out of her butt to kill him. With her ranged attack she can get up to 6 maximum and there is a tiny chance she could one shot him from Melee via her dumb surge ability. 

ah, forum formatting stumped me as it was spaced different. My bad.

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On 8/16/2017 at 8:58 AM, Leowulf said:

Ok lets do some HTML art :P  Usually like this, the left flank is the weak point right? He usually either just denies it with a board edge or terrain. He is crafty.

AA   AA  AA   M     RRR
    C              C         RRR

         terrain

Oh fun, ASCII art! If you focus his right flank, his archers won't have line of sight. If he's deploying against the left edge of the field, there should be plenty of space to maneuver around him to the right. Your cavalry can wait out of range of his archers, and if he moves them to get an angle, you pounce.

|AA   AA  AA   M     RRR
|   C              C         RRR      <=== ATTACK
|
|        terrain

 CAVALRY RESERVES

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Cavalry seem like the answer here. Reanimate Archers dont do alot ofndamage natively, sonfocus on dodging out of Maro's sight lines. Also, Maro is VERY VERY easily killed by Heavy Crossbowmen. Hawthorne with Shield of Margath and his defense unique is a great speedbump that can easily kill a blight battery

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7 hours ago, Contrapulator said:

Oh fun, ASCII art! If you focus his right flank, his archers won't have line of sight. If he's deploying against the left edge of the field, there should be plenty of space to maneuver around him to the right. Your cavalry can wait out of range of his archers, and if he moves them to get an angle, you pounce.

|AA   AA  AA   M     RRR
|   C              C         RRR      <=== ATTACK
|
|        terrain

 CAVALRY RESERVES

Hmm that is pretty genius actually. I don't NEED to move forwards in the centre death zone if I know the right flank is going to win.

Here's the list I was thinking of using, a bit of a combination of everyone's advice:

http://tabletopadmiral.com/runewars/human/p023u4fu03uEMu1fp052u21u07uEMp0f2u27uEMuEMp0f2u27uEMuEMp051uEMu42

I can move into range of the carrion lancers but hopefully OUT of range of Maro with the Heavy Crossbowmen at initiative 6, then do the '3 attack' combo onto the Reanimates/Ardus/Deathknights turn 1 hopefully with the Cavalry.

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Alternatively, one could try a slightly insane mass golem build. Golems with Windrune can move closer at ini 3 with their armor increased -> archers would have a hard time to deal damage, especially without re-rolls. Kari could keep Maro busy. Then if you get lucky with the runes, storm in at ini 4 and slaughter them.

Something like this:

http://tabletopadmiral.com/runewars/human/p061u3duEMp042u28p042u28p042u28p042u28

Yes I know, no one got the golems for that and its a bit nuts, but if Kari can kill Maro the chances aren't that bad. Just wait patiently for 4 unstable/2 Stable Runes before the charge^^

I'd love to try this madness. Primarily to see the bewildered face of my opponent. :D

 

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'Tempered Steel Weapons' is an Armor upgrade card. 2x1 Archers don't get an Armor upgrade.  unless your also running Ardus. Your friends army is 188 points without upgrades. Add Ardus and your over 200.

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Ayy I won finally!

2 units of 3x1 Heavy Crossbowmen with Tempered Steel and Rank Discipline, a unit of 2x1 spears with a Rallying Conicern deployed in front to both block for them and refresh tempered steel.
Then a 2x2 Unit of Spears with Dispatch Runner running alongside a 2x3 unit of Oathsworn with Hawthorne upgrade and Column Tactics.

He switched up his list a little - he ran 4x3 Reanimates, Maro with Fortunas Dice and Violent Forces, two units of 2x1 Archers with Combat Ingenuity and a unit of 2x1 Carrion Lancers.

We deployed aggressively facing each other after I chose the 'long edge facing corner' deployment, playing the minefields mission, he denied a flank with mines and terrain but I wanted to line up with him because I was much more confident. Basically the Crossbowmen melted the lancers / Maro after they rushed forwards turn 1, oh god ranged damage in this game is insane, 1 shotted Maro with 3 hit results (+1 from Tempered steel!) for 12 damage. They then went on to move into the two reanimate archer unit's range and very easily out-trade them - the 2x1 rallying spear unit doing it's job blocking the carrion lancers and dying valiantly to the archers.

The Hawthorne Cavalry Column took a huge amount of blight, but instead of doing the move / dispatch trick or rallying I opted to line up a charge with both the Cav and the spears - the four dice charge attack was completely nullified by blight but it didn't matter, attacking at Initiative 3 combined with dispatch runner and a very lucky morale card which let me reform the reanimates meant they got minced and I only lost 3 trays of spears and 1 of cavalry. A complete route by turn 7!

Thank you for the advice everyone!

 

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