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MrAndersson

Is there a place for quality discussion about the competitive side of X-Wing?

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First off, this is not me being salty or anything. I am actually asking.

But it has become increasingly apparent to me that it is near impossible to hold any kind of quality discussion on this forum. Comments like "there is no meta" or "this list is awesome because it totally demolished my 7 year old brother's Scyk swarm last night" are all too common. A lot of people post opinions without holding even the slightest sliver of merit.

The only reason I still hang around here is that there is half a dozen or so people who have something meaningful to say. A special shoutout to MajorJuggler, whose mathematical analyses are always interesting to read.

 

So, as the topic says, where can I discuss the competitive side of this game without having to filter through all the idiots and their comments? And yes, I know it sounds elitist, but I am actually desperate. So if you have any tips, about other forums, facebooks groups or something else, please PM me.

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Let me know if you find it. I totally back you up on this. Even if there is a topic here that catches my interest, and furthermore, if I jump into the discussion, any actual conversations are burried by heaps of complaining, trolls, and low brow humor. 

The state of X Wing is fine. The forums have devolved to a state no better than the youtube comment section. So again, if theres a better place to actually discuss this game, keep me posted.

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There are very few people on this forum I listen to their opinion about the game, and I sure hope that FFG does the same.
Most people that complain don't even know how to play the game and have hardly ever won a tournament.
Take the plethora of fix threads for example. Most suggestions are poorly thought and would create more problems than they solve.
Not to mention the "Lemmings effect", one guy comes up with a great list and about 100 people copy it instead of coming up with a strategy to counter it.

 

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Try finding and/or creating a Slack or Discord channel with others you know who you respect or simply others in your area who play the game. A lot better context comes from comments when you actually know the person making them. 

Edited by Kdubb

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2 hours ago, Quadjumper King said:

It's definately feasible to have both casual and competitive sub-forums, isn't it? 

It's feasible, but it doesn't necessarily solve anything. The goals of each group are generally too incompatible, and then you need to decide which you're actually discussing in the 1st place (Also , it's the internet which meas trolls and people who have to be right).

Location matters, localized metas happen.

Fixing the current broken doesn't mean you didn't just promote or create something else that's (maybe even more) broken <- this is the one that always gets me with "fix it" threads

We don't know whats in the design pipework.

copypaster's skew the results. If you look at what's going on atm with meta lowrick + nymdengar out there at the same time in force is the issue, not 1 or the other on it's own imho.

for some reason people will scream a list is busted and for nerfs before they even try to fly something a little different or oddball. (I mean heck, it seems to be how heaver always seems to be at the pointy end of the worlds scene)

 

And then we have the business side of it, and who do you cater for to keep the lights on and the printers running? Sure the pro may spend more on average but exactly what % of the player base do they make up? And how quickly does the meta shift given we're seeing such regular releases?

Edited by Ralgon

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2 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Yeah, well, as a Filthy Casual I wish there was a place to discuss x-wing for fun rather than placing first in some tourney.  So I guess we all have our problems.

So what? I don't play in tournaments, but I like the game and their mechanics.

Talk about fixing is not fun.

Blame is not fun.

 

Talk about how to counter any list, how to move, how to fly, how to manage risks, that is fun. Add the flavour, and you have X-Wing. 

I totally support the topic for that.

 

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6 minutes ago, Cerve said:

So what? I don't play in tournaments, but I like the game and their mechanics.

Talk about fixing is not fun.

Blame is not fun.

 

Talk about how to counter any list, how to move, how to fly, how to manage risks, that is fun. Add the flavour, and you have X-Wing. 

I totally support the topic for that.

 

refer to my last point before "the business side of it".............

 

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12 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Yeah, well, as a Filthy Casual I wish there was a place to discuss x-wing for fun rather than placing first in some tourney.  So I guess we all have our problems.

I really don't get the "filthy casual" thing. I have never once have seen a competitive player refer to casual players as filthy or similar. Sure it gets heated when an argument has broken out.

But as far as I can tell "filthy casual" is a moniker casual players have given themselves to feel persecuted or something. Maybe it makes it easier to justify being venomous towards competitive players?

It's somewhere between a straw man and a cross to climb upon when it's time to play the victim. 

In all my years of gaming there's always been a divide between casual and competitive players. It's inevitable, but it doesn't have to be contentious. For whatever reason, the X-wing community has always had a greater degree of hostile casuals snapping at competitive players while simultaneously feeling victimized.

Is it not possible to discuss competitive aspects of the game without hostility from people who have no interest in the conversation anyway? Find me a thread about casual formats with some competitive player butting in to attack people for being casual. I'm sure it's happened before, but nowhere near the frequency that the reverse of that happens. 

If you can find an example, I can guarantee you the hostile competitive player at fault doesn't carry around a melodramatic nickname with him to show off how abused he is. 

 

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12 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Yeah, well, as a Filthy Casual I wish there was a place to discuss x-wing for fun rather than placing first in some tourney.  So I guess we all have our problems.

I would love an Epic/Cinematic Play only forum but I know it wouldn't be feasible.

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41 minutes ago, Sekac said:

I really don't get the "filthy casual" thing. I have never once have seen a competitive player refer to casual players as filthy or similar. Sure it gets heated when an argument has broken out.

But as far as I can tell "filthy casual" is a moniker casual players have given themselves to feel persecuted or something. Maybe it makes it easier to justify being venomous towards competitive players?

It's somewhere between a straw man and a cross to climb upon when it's time to play the victim. 

In all my years of gaming there's always been a divide between casual and competitive players. It's inevitable, but it doesn't have to be contentious. For whatever reason, the X-wing community has always had a greater degree of hostile casuals snapping at competitive players while simultaneously feeling victimized.

Is it not possible to discuss competitive aspects of the game without hostility from people who have no interest in the conversation anyway? Find me a thread about casual formats with some competitive player butting in to attack people for being casual. I'm sure it's happened before, but nowhere near the frequency that the reverse of that happens. 

If you can find an example, I can guarantee you the hostile competitive player at fault doesn't carry around a melodramatic nickname with him to show off how abused he is. 

 

Heh.

17 hours ago, MrAndersson said:

A lot of people post opinions without holding even the slightest sliver of merit.

^^^This

Telling people that their opinions are completely without merit which therefore means not worthy of consideration is insulting.

"It dies to Dengaroo," was practically a meme on this forum for awhile when Dengaroo was relevant where more competitive players would shoot down any conversation about non Tier 1 lists by more casual players.

While I think the self depreciation of the "filthy casual" moniker is a little overly dramatic myself, there have been plenty of people on the forums that talk down to casual players.

The bile is being spat both ways.

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Oh I agree. The contentious dialogue goes both ways. It annoys me either direction. 

The difference is casual players tend to go out of their way to attack competitive players for being competitive. Whereas competitive players can be dismissive of lists that aren't competitively viable. Often they lack the context that whatever list isn't designed to win tournaments. But there's little a competitive player can respond with that isn't an observation of how it'll perform in a tournament. 

If you're not planning on playing to win with the list, what sort of feedback are you looking for? "Looks like fun" or "I hope you like it" don't really contribute much to the conversation, and observations about competitive viability are (often unknowingly) unwelcome. 

But the thing you don't see competitive players do is competitive players attacking casual players for being casual. The "you're enjoying the game wrong" sentiment is almost exclusively expressed by casuals towards competitive players. 

The thing that makes it unbearable to me though, is acting aggressively while simultaneously wearing the "abused victim" badge. You can pretend you're a victim OR criticize people for playing wrong. You can't do both simultaneously.

 

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@Sekac couldn't agree more.

 

I have run into a number of players who have no interest in competitive play and think it somehow harms their game. They believe that because these players do not always fly ships based on what they think looks coolest or most interesting, or insist that some things are better than others in standard format (which they believe is the best way to play the game, another casual player trigger), they threaten casual play.

 The truth is that the majority of competitive players enjoy casual play along with competitive.

 My area is running a league currently that has a different theme each week, from building a 100 point squad with 150 points of random pilots, having "hyper space" jump positions on the board, and alternate obstacle tokens. And you know who shows? The same players that are there for store championships and regionals.

 

One thing I will say though is competitive players have a really hard time not pressing their competitive mindset on things which are based in the standard format, even if it is going to be taking place in a casual setting. When someone is running something that looks pretty bad at 100 points without any alterations, it's really difficult to say "go for it, looks great", when that player's experiences tells them that's far from the truth.

 

I think a good middle ground in cases such as this is for the strictly casual player to set some parameters on his list that can't be changed, and ask what can be done in that case. For example, "I am going to fly Luke and Ibtisam for sure, and I want to use Stay on Target and Shield Upgrade as well. What can I do to make this squad most effective/fun while using those upgrades?"  Otherwise, you are going to get the same old "those pilots are really bad. Have you considered Dengaroo?" Type comments.

 

If you are playing in a non-standard format though? I've found discussion is almost always wide open as no known meta is apparent. In those cases there really should be no issue having casual and competitive discuss together.

Edited by Kdubb

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50 minutes ago, Sekac said:

If you're not planning on playing to win with the list, what sort of feedback are you looking for? "Looks like fun" or "I hope you like it" don't really contribute much to the conversation, and observations about competitive viability are (often unknowingly) unwelcome. 

 

4 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

I think a good middle ground in cases such as this is for the strictly casual player to set some parameters on his list that can't be changed, and ask what can be done in that case. For example, "I am going to fly Luke and Ibtisam for sure, and I want to use Stay on Target and Shield Upgrade as well. What can I do to make this squad most effective/fun while using those upgrades?"  Otherwise, you are going to get the same old "those pilots are really bad. Have you considered Dengaroo?" Type comments.

 

Kdubb makes an excellent point here. With discussions of casual T1.5 and T2 lists, conversation and discussion can be had without handwaving away the list as "It dies to FSR." Discussing how the list may fly, how it could hand flying against a jousting list (if not FSR exactly), bombing lists, arc-dodgers, possible problems with interactions between the ships, etc., could be had even though the list isn't T1 and won't likely win Worlds anytime soon. Perhaps if there was a better means of communicating the intention of the thread, we wouldn't have people bumping heads so much.

 

54 minutes ago, Sekac said:

But the thing you don't see competitive players do is competitive players attacking casual players for being casual. The "you're enjoying the game wrong" sentiment is almost exclusively expressed by casuals towards competitive players. 

 

Its the dismissive attitude that implies insult rather than explicit language. For instance here in this thread, by stating that you are unable to personally find reason for there to be discussion about a list if said discussion is not about the list in a competitive environment and so you ask for what type of feedback someone might want, you are implying that, to you, there is no obvious reason for there to be conversation about casual lists, ergo casual gameplay discussions lack defined purpose and therefore lacks discussion value, and that leads to those threads are effectively just ******** up the forums, therefore the opinions of casual game players are unwanted here.

Implicit insult. Likely not intended, but there it is. /shrug

Then, while you won't typically find someone on the forums directly insulting more casual players who are discussing non-top tier lists, ships, or cards, sometimes you do (leaving out names here):

Quote

Autoblaster is great. Sounds like you just need to git gud.

I guess you're not interested in gitting gud. Sad.

Coming from a synced turret user, that's doubtful.

Here are just a couple choice quotes from another user that likes to be a bit more explicitly caustic with their opinion of non-top performing upgrade cards, pilots and those that choose to fly them.

But then, all forums have trolls.

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