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DarthDude

Talent trees rather than careers

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In SW, talents are rather arranged in careers. You often have to purchase talents which do not interest you, before you get to the ones you aim at. Also often, those talents are (or seem) to be arranged randomly without being tied to the same thematics. I hope for an approach were every skill has its own talent tree. The advantage is, the talents are all related to the skill, you do not have to purchase dead weight which is totally unrelated to the talent you want to get and you would have way more flexibility to individualize your char. You would not need an excess of hundreds of different careers.

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We know for a fact something called "careers" is returning. People constantly conflate careers and specializations. Careers are character types, or broadly applied classes. Specializations are subtypes of the career.

Talents are mentioned. Whether that means specializations will return or not remains to be seen. I imagine a tiered level system may be used instead, one that the GM can more easily modify to fit their game, kind of similar to Cypher System's method.

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7 minutes ago, Blackbird888 said:

We know for a fact something called "careers" is returning. People constantly conflate careers and specializations. Careers are character types, or broadly applied classes. Specializations are subtypes of the career.

Talents are mentioned. Whether that means specializations will return or not remains to be seen. I imagine a tiered level system may be used instead, one that the GM can more easily modify to fit their game, kind of similar to Cypher System's method.

You are correct, I was referring to specialiszations rather than careers. Got the term mixed up.

Hopefully they do not go that level/tier approach. Conan 2D20 (another Jay Little jewel) uses attributes and skills tied to attributes, similar than in SW. It works like a charm, because you are defined by the attributes and skills rather than some abstract construct as levels.

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Such a system would be a considerable departure from what we have now. While not outside the realm of possibility, that would practically be a second edition. We'll have to wait and see. Hopefully GenCon will elucidate us a bit.

And I'm pretty sure Jay Little isn't working on this system any more? The current powers that be may simple decide that's not the direction they wish to take with this system. It seems to me like a major revision of the established rules would be a considerable change with very little foreshadowing.

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12 minutes ago, DarthDude said:

Sounds lovely, but a trip overseas for a session is quite expensive :P 

You know, you SAY that, but it's not just a session - it's the best gaming convention in the world!  It's small, heavily focused on FFG's Narrative system, and you get free "XP" for every hour you play; which lets you bid for SWAG (games, books, etc.) on the last day in a big 'ole auction!  

We have a huge overseas contingent every year, and it's growing.  Norwegians, Brits, Germans, and Australians all make their way over!  

And aside from the plane ticket, it's the cheapest Con you'll ever go to.  Dallas is an inexpensive city, our Convention block hotel is less than $90 per night, and you can rent a car for $35 a day (assuming you can't just organize rides with locals, as many of our travelling attendees do).

 

Man... I'm really selling this hard.  LOLOL... 

 

 

Come to GamerNationCON! :D  We'll treat you right!

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1 hour ago, GM Chris said:

You know, you SAY that, but it's not just a session - it's the best gaming convention in the world!  It's small, heavily focused on FFG's Narrative system, and you get free "XP" for every hour you play; which lets you bid for SWAG (games, books, etc.) on the last day in a big 'ole auction!  

We have a huge overseas contingent every year, and it's growing.  Norwegians, Brits, Germans, and Australians all make their way over!  

And aside from the plane ticket, it's the cheapest Con you'll ever go to.  Dallas is an inexpensive city, our Convention block hotel is less than $90 per night, and you can rent a car for $35 a day (assuming you can't just organize rides with locals, as many of our travelling attendees do).

 

Man... I'm really selling this hard.  LOLOL... 

 

 

Come to GamerNationCON! :D  We'll treat you right!

Another international here and every year man, every bloody year, I want to come. Not next year but it will happen

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On the actual topic though I can think of a bunch of ways to do it. Specialisation trees are really difficult to get right, especially to balance with other specs and not end up with an uber career. For that reason I hope there's some solid guidelines on balance.

One possible method would be a selection of smaller modules that can be used separately or joined together to form Trees. Perhaps vertical columns of 5 talents, join 4 sections and they form a tree.

Another option would be a large list of generic Specialisations. Some of the talent nodes could have more than one talent and the GM can just choose the appropriate one for the particular theme of the spec. This would give variaty without too much duplication within the books and also reduce the effort required by GM's in planning the campaign.

There could be a change in tree size too, cutting them down from 5 rows to 3. Even there could be "basic" trees available with low or no requirements. Then Advanced trees that attach like signature abilitys to the basic trees and have higher requirements.

The simplest solution would be a complete change of direction back towards the WFRP system. Give every talent an xp cost, perhaps with minimum requirements. If it's a ranked talent or has improved/Supreme versions then the minimum requirements could go up. Perhaps tying particular talents to Careers or Skills would work in this instance; some talents are not available to some careers, whilst some talents require a certain number of skill ranks to be able to be purchased.

 

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On 11/08/2017 at 3:37 PM, DarthDude said:

In SW, talents are rather arranged in careers. You often have to purchase talents which do not interest you, before you get to the ones you aim at. Also often, those talents are (or seem) to be arranged randomly without being tied to the same thematics. I hope for an approach were every skill has its own talent tree. The advantage is, the talents are all related to the skill, you do not have to purchase dead weight which is totally unrelated to the talent you want to get and you would have way more flexibility to individualize your char. You would not need an excess of hundreds of different careers.

Hi I totally agree with you I have the same feeling. In SWRPG specializations really fit to the theme, so I don't feel too restricted (and you can combine them). In a more generic setting like a classic fantasy one without a strong lore, specializations would be too restrictive and not allow the correct build of your character.

On the other hand, I feel a total lack of immersion with the "talents by tiers" system, it is too flat and difficult to navigate.

That is why my intent is too start categorizing talents by "theme" or "path", and add more prerequisites between them (the path of heavy combat, the path of light combat, a path for each spell school, the path of thievery). These would be like talent trees, but sometimes you would need to invest into a specified number of talent in path in order to unlock a more advanced talent. There could also be shortcuts beetween different paths (like path of nature could help with alchemy, the paths are distinct ones, yet related). Opening a new path would have a cost (like new specializations).
An effect strength could also be related to the number of talents you have in the current path.

Then you can bring on "profiles" or "specializations": with pre-opened paths (at no cost), free talents in certain paths, or penalties to the cost of other ones (like heavy combat is opposed to arcane magic).
Such a "talent paths system", without the profiles, could be of great help to adapt to any setting, because you "only" have to define the "profiles" for your setting. Instead of picking talents one by one you would concentrate on a higher level, choosing paths associations. It is good to keep up with profiles (instead of a fully open system) because it is good that a character has an "identity". If you are not satisfied with the available profiles for you character, you can create one, and give it name ! (with your GM authorization/validation)

Inspiration comes from Skyrim the video game, and from "Chroniques oubliées" a recent french d20 RPG which has thematic paths of 5 "powers" that you can combine. Although those two systems are not fully satisfying for me.

I'm only interested in fantasy settings for now. If anyone has started such a work let me know... (As I'm not the most productive person).

 

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I kinda agree with fjw70. I don’t miss talent trees. But I do miss specializations. Maybe instead of opening a talent tree with specs one could open with a spec unique talents of various tiers (that you’d still have to work into your pyramid according to the rules but when or if you saw fit). 

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You could also treat Genesys talents similar to career skills. Select a certain number of talents that are appropriate to the career and give the character a small discount  for buying them.  Perhaps either 10% off the cost, or if that is too much, or maybe 1-3 points depending on the the Tier. This way specific talents aren't forced on to a character and the openness of the system is still maintained.

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I wonder if they considered an à la carte talent-buy system that still worked within the framework of specialization talent trees. Imagine a Star Wars talent tree with nothing on it but blank boxes. You can buy anything on the top row for 5 XP per box. Maybe there's some sort of tax for a connecting line between two talents below Tier 1. In effect, you're creating a unique talent tree with your own chosen talents, but paying for the bars to connect talents. The structure of the tree (four columns by five rows) limits how many Talents you can buy while still encouraging some variety.

Bum-rushing Dedication would cost 5 (first Tier 1 talent) + 5 (connecting Tier 1 to Tier 2) + 10 (first Tier 2 talent) + 5 (connecting Tier 2 to Tier 3) + 15 (first Tier 3 talent) + 5 (connecting Tier 3 to Tier 4) + 20 (first Tier 4 Talent) + 5 (connecting Tier 4 to Tier 5) + 25 (Dedication at Tier 5) = 95 XP. About on par with most Star Wars Talent Trees, and Dedication would be limited to one instance per tree.Players could then start a second talent tree just like buying a new Star Wars spec, paying 10 XP times how many specs they'll end up with.

Random idea. No idea how well it'd play and whether it'd prevent abuse.

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I wouldn't mind seeing something along the lines of an Archetype description and a talent pyramid to build it.  Then players can buy their way through the suggested talents or branch out similar to multi-classing in other games.  If you want to be a classic gunslinger, here's the talent tree.  Want to be a gambler, here's that tree.  Want to Bret Maverick (gunslinger/gambler) mix and match the two for the talents that fit your vision.

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