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Daigotsu Steve

Courtesy of the Jade Throne Podcast - Adept of Shadows

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1 minute ago, RandomJC said:

One of the design team, Brad, I think. He can be played from hand. nothing says he can't be.

Great! Good to have a ruling on that but I'm getting the feeling from both this and the other discussion about attachments we're gong to need some extra FAQs before Gencon. I'd really rather not have to keep pointing to the forum for answers as to why something should happen one way rather than another.

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54 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

One of the design team, Brad, I think. He can be played from hand. nothing says he can't be.

The adept says "return this character to your hand", thus Yokuni should not be able to initiate this copied ability as he was never in the hand to begin with. You can't return to a place you never were. Additionally, now there is a card with a dynasty card back in your hand, which is weird (and will affect how random discarding will work).

Edited by Mr Omura

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3 minutes ago, Mr Omura said:

It says "return this character to your hand", thus Yokuni should not be able to use this ability as he was never in the hand to begin with. You can't return to a place you never were. Additionally, now there is a card with a dynasty card back in your hand, which is weird (and will affect how random discarding will work).

I'm waiting for the Dragon player who has different color backs for their Dynasty and Conflict cards to be super mad when I pick that wrong colored Conflict card to be discarded. :D

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8 minutes ago, Mr Omura said:

The adept says "return this character to your hand", thus Yokuni should not be able to initiate this copied ability as he was never in the hand to begin with. You can't return to a place you never were. Additionally, now there is a card with a dynasty card back in your hand, which is weird (and will affect how random discarding will work).

Card goes to hand, design team has said it is so. And Random at that point isn't determined by picking it, but by another method. Rolling a die.

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15 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

Card goes to hand, design team has said it is so. And Random at that point isn't determined by picking it, but by another method. Rolling a die.

If a player puts Adept of Shadows in hand, and I watch where they place it, am I picking at random when I choose that card to discard, or am I making an educated guess?

If I've figured out a player's tell and I pick a certain card, is it random or an educated guess?

Just because picking Yokuni doesnt require much education to guess, doesnt mean it isnt the same as other scenarios

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1 minute ago, Shu2jack said:

If a player puts Adept of Shadows in hand, and I watch where they place it, am I picking at random when I choose that card to discard, or am I making an educated guess?

If I've figured out a player's tell and I pick a certain card, is it random or an educated guess?

Just because picking Yokuni doesnt require much education to guess, doesnt mean it isnt the same as other scenarios

You're being a touch intellectually dishonest, as well as if you know what the card is, it is neither an educated guess nor is it random.

Not an educated guess. Is it random, depends on how you define it, you don't know what the card is, you're just assuming it's important by the tell.

That being said, Yokuni is at best similar to the first scenario, and not at all like the second. But because he is clearly marked, picking is obviously not a random selection, and you can't really argue it is, just because it fits some other scenarios that may be similar but leave out the key fact that in this scenario there is a clear and obvious sign as to the identity of the card.

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Playing characters from hand in an Action Window does not explicitly state "conflict character".

Yokuni can also be discarded from hand for an extra fate, if you have another copy in play.

A different version of a unique card (that shares the same title) may be discarded from a player’s hand or provinces as a duplicate.

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3 hours ago, RandomJC said:

Oh it's probably illegal as all ****, but nothing so far says it is.

Legality aside, I just don't find it credible to have 5 Fate just hanging around, as well 1 Honor "to spend" for the mere chance of bringing Yokuni into play. 

Possible? Yes. Anything is possible. 

Likely? I'd say no, not likely. 

If you can't find any worthwhile card to pay your Fate for and play from your Dynasty deck (or your Conflict hand), then the game is pretty much over by then and you're not gonna prevail. Just my thought here. 

BTW, I love this card. ??

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1 hour ago, Shu2jack said:

If a player puts Adept of Shadows in hand, and I watch where they place it, am I picking at random when I choose that card to discard, or am I making an educated guess?

You should both expect (and inform) your opponent that they should shuffle up their fate hand first before randomly picking from it.

Even  better, just use a die for all random discards.

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1 hour ago, LordBlunt said:

Legality aside, I just don't find it credible to have 5 Fate just hanging around, as well 1 Honor "to spend" for the mere chance of bringing Yokuni into play. 

Possible? Yes. Anything is possible. 

Likely? I'd say no, not likely. 

If you can't find any worthwhile card to pay your Fate for and play from your Dynasty deck (or your Conflict hand), then the game is pretty much over by then and you're not gonna prevail. Just my thought here. 

BTW, I love this card. ??

Well now I know it is legal, the play is at end of conflict, bounce him back. Skip dynasty for a fate, immediately play from hand and start conflict by putting him into play.

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Wouldn't the better benefit be:
- Buy him on Turn X with one Fate. Attack with him that turn.
- On the following turn, attack with him. Bounce him back. Buy him, readied, and attack again.
- Good Omen. Repeat.

Yes, there are other, cheaper, methods of multi-attacking on the one turn. But having more options has to be better.

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1 hour ago, Bayushi Shunsuke said:

Wouldn't the better benefit be:
- Buy him on Turn X with one Fate. Attack with him that turn.
- On the following turn, attack with him. Bounce him back. Buy him, readied, and attack again.
- Good Omen. Repeat.

Yes, there are other, cheaper, methods of multi-attacking on the one turn. But having more options has to be better.

Wait, so would we be able bounce a bowed Adept and replay into an Attack or Defense unbowed? 

That improves this card a fair bit for me and I already thought it was very good card.

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4 hours ago, RandomJC said:

You're being a touch intellectually dishonest, as well as if you know what the card is, it is neither an educated guess nor is it random.

Not an educated guess. Is it random, depends on how you define it, you don't know what the card is, you're just assuming it's important by the tell.

That being said, Yokuni is at best similar to the first scenario, and not at all like the second. But because he is clearly marked, picking is obviously not a random selection, and you can't really argue it is, just because it fits some other scenarios that may be similar but leave out the key fact that in this scenario there is a clear and obvious sign as to the identity of the card.

Schrodingers Yokuni? :P

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'd be fine in an opponent asks for what you mentioned and I would probably ask myself at a tournament.

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1 hour ago, Bayushi Shunsuke said:

Wouldn't the better benefit be:
- Buy him on Turn X with one Fate. Attack with him that turn.
- On the following turn, attack with him. Bounce him back. Buy him, readied, and attack again.
- Good Omen. Repeat.

Yes, there are other, cheaper, methods of multi-attacking on the one turn. But having more options has to be better.

Feels like way more moving parts that too easily can get mucked up.

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Other than a cute trick with the champion, what does the card add to a Dragon deck? She's a bushi for something like Rout, but beyond that, she's really constant recipient for legacy attachments. I don't know if I see her really being splashed for during the core set when we consider the other clan options.

Would other clans play her? The more honorable ones or runners wouldn't want to lose the honor. The less honorable ones might find a place except for other candidates like the Tattooed Wanderer or Stoic Gunso, both of which also cost fewer influence and allow for other splashes.

Right now she seems more like a Scorpion card that helps out the conflict card management aspect of the clan. Maybe a Dragon deck could use her if some other tools came out to either help dig out the champion or her, more cards like Secluded Temple that focus on having fewer characters in play prior to conflicts, or some other uses of the card outside of the champion. 

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This is why I think Scorpion will be somehow a dedicated dishonor deck. There has been 5 revealed personalities with absolutely no proactive ability to help win conflicts. Comparing this to Crane (unanimously accepted as a mirror of Scorpion), they only have 3 personalities that doesn't directly help win conflicts. This would continue the curse of Scorpion relying too much on their cards in hand.

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30 minutes ago, Shosuro Teri said:

This is why I think Scorpion will be somehow a dedicated dishonor deck. There has been 5 revealed personalities with absolutely no proactive ability to help win conflicts. Comparing this to Crane (unanimously accepted as a mirror of Scorpion), they only have 3 personalities that doesn't directly help win conflicts. This would continue the curse of Scorpion relying too much on their cards in hand.

Are you sure that after seeing 5 of their 15 characters you can make such a conclusion? Scorpions are encouraged to draw a lot, keep their honor low and make sure their opponent doesn't win too much honor thanks to the dishonor tools they'll have at their disposal. Don't forget dishonor helps you win conflicts, as you'll have less force facing your army.
 

Quote

Strategy : Scorpion Clan

While playing the Scorpion Clan, you’ll want to make high honor bids in order to draw extra cards and surprise your opponents with potent tricks and traps. Yet you must always maintain your deepest loyalty, lest you lose all honor and the game. Dishonor is also a powerful tool when turned against your foes to keep their skill low and their hopes of beating you in conflict even lower.

What we've seen so far : 

Adept of Shadows : As a Conflict Character, she will pop when you want to, or when you need that sweet 2 force.

Bayushi Manipulator : Makes you draw one more card each turn (or messes with duels).

Favored Niece : Make you cycle two cards a turn.

Shosuro Actress : take a character from your opponent's discard right into the conflict on your side.

Young Rumormonger : lets you choose who's honored or dishonored. Which means you get to pick the highest impact target for your dishonor effects and the least impactful target for your opponent's honoring effects

So out of the five previewed characters so far, two give you access to more cards, while the rest are pretty versatile and helpful when it comes to having more force than your opponent.

What I want to see is how much of ninja-y and poisony goodness they'll get in the core set. :)

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