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Darth Meanie

Time to Quit??

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4 hours ago, Marinealver said:

All this reballancing stuff is a little premature.

You have to demonstrate why it's actively bad for the community as a while. But all you're saying is that you, personally, don't like it right now. That's nice and all, but again: MJ isn't doing it for you. If I understand correctly he's doing it out of curiosity and for himself, but it's so much work that not sharing it would be a shame.

3 hours ago, SabineKey said:

Even without a structured and supported competition, it's still a competitive game where there are clearly better choices than others. There is always going to be that guy who complains that his slapped together triple X-Wing lost to a list that was better thought out and constructed. Always gonna be a-holes who just gotta win. Always gonna be trolls. And even without official prize support, someone is gonna want to play for something. 

I agree with that. There are definitely some card combinations that are pretty stupid and a waste of points and slots. But I don't think every possible combination needs to be viable in the exact same way to have a "balanced" game. Personally I would say it's enough if there is a build for every ship, for example. Maybe even for every pilot.

You should be able to take a ship or pilot and build something good with that. That's currently not possible.

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32 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Personally I would say it's enough if there is a build for every ship, for example. Maybe even for every pilot.

You should be able to take a ship or pilot and build something good with that. That's currently not possible.

Are you sure? You cannot take almost every ship and build a good squad with them?

Maybe not broken like top tier lists. Just good enough...

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4 minutes ago, Deadfool said:

Any game that involves customisation of your units via cards or whatever will always become about the cards/upgrades. It's just the way it is, if you don't like it, move on.

That doesn't necessarily follow.  For example only recently the best squad in the history of the game spent only 8pts on upgrades.

You can design the game to give primacy to upgrades and interactions between them, or you can design the game to make base ships the strength and upgrades only occasionally important.

Edited by SOTL

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1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

You have to demonstrate why it's actively bad for the community as a while. But all you're saying is that you, personally, don't like it right now. That's nice and all, but again: MJ isn't doing it for you. If I understand correctly he's doing it out of curiosity and for himself, but it's so much work that not sharing it would be a shame.

...

Because I heard it all before with Wave 4 and so on. Heck the Wave 4-5 meta was so bad even after the TLT arrived in wave 7 it wasn't until between Waves 8 and 9 that the new TLT pushed out the older powerhouses of the meta.  And I get it, everything that comes out doesn't follow the point to power curve and much of the new stuff is falling above the curve that was set in waves 1-3. However as I said before, just fixing the point cost will not fix the game. Right now the problem exists with only one aspect of the game although a significant aspect and that is the competitive meta. Not to say the same problems from that aspect doesn't bleed into other aspects (TLT is even more so potent in Epic than it is in standard). However it is a print format and there is the collection aspect for the game. To try and recost every pilot and upgrade card then reevaluate each card as new waves come in and new combinations is a recipe for disaster even with the mathematical skills of one Dr. Randall (my sincerest apologies if I misspelled the name). 

Now that being said it isn't that I don't want community members involved with X-wing (after all FFG still needs play-testers). However I think right now the game is still in a living state and that it is growing and will be subject to all the problems of accretion which some would even call power creep. But it is still growing and what was OP in one wave will eventually find itself into obscurity as waves go by (has anyone seen C-3PO recently?). Honestly when FFG (or Disney) decides to stop creating new ships for X-wing in about 10 or so years from now I would very much welcome the whole lets take over and make it better approach recosting all the pilot and upgrade cards without having to follow current conventions such as higher pilot skill pilots costing more than lower skill pilots of the same ship. 

Just now with FFG and X-wing still being a print game still requiring all the cards to be present at tournaments and still supporting the game and its living aspects I can't get behind a whole lets take over and redo X-wing to make it better. Not that I don't support alternative formats heck I am still trying to get my AM (Allies and Mercenaries) format going despite the criticism that it would be just more jumpmasters. But it seems more like instead of tryign to make a new way to play the game (like Heroes of the Autri Cluster) you are trying to change the game without FFG's consent. As for what FFG does I would simply like to remind them that it is a print game and if they feel the need to take measures that move away from said media format then they should make accommodations (i.e. accepting legal printouts of squadron list in place of pilot upgrade cards) to keep the game accessible to all players.

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You're talking about power balance, but I'm not having fun, and I've not been having fun for a long time.  I'm not alone.  A lot of people aren't having fun.  I don't give two figs about whether the game is balanced or not if it isn't worth spending time playing.

Somebody is making a rules set that aims at making the game enjoyable to play.

Why is that bad?

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Change the game without FFG's consent? Do you really think you need the consent to change rules, pts value, add new upgrades or game modes?

Perhaps I am simply too old. The videogamer's point of view about "lets play the game as The Company designed it and pray for new DLCs and Patches" is not for us. 

If  I want to play with my friends with D100s instead of Reds and Greens, we will play as we want. 

If I pay to play FFG's Tournament, 100% by the book of course. 

Edited by Hexdot

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41 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

Because I heard it all before with Wave 4 and so on. Heck the Wave 4-5 meta was so bad even after the TLT arrived in wave 7 it wasn't until between Waves 8 and 9 that the new TLT pushed out the older powerhouses of the meta.  And I get it, everything that comes out doesn't follow the point to power curve and much of the new stuff is falling above the curve that was set in waves 1-3. However as I said before, just fixing the point cost will not fix the game. Right now the problem exists with only one aspect of the game although a significant aspect and that is the competitive meta. Not to say the same problems from that aspect doesn't bleed into other aspects (TLT is even more so potent in Epic than it is in standard). However it is a print format and there is the collection aspect for the game. To try and recost every pilot and upgrade card then reevaluate each card as new waves come in and new combinations is a recipe for disaster even with the mathematical skills of one Dr. Randall (my sincerest apologies if I misspelled the name). 

Now that being said it isn't that I don't want community members involved with X-wing (after all FFG still needs play-testers). However I think right now the game is still in a living state and that it is growing and will be subject to all the problems of accretion which some would even call power creep. But it is still growing and what was OP in one wave will eventually find itself into obscurity as waves go by (has anyone seen C-3PO recently?). Honestly when FFG (or Disney) decides to stop creating new ships for X-wing in about 10 or so years from now I would very much welcome the whole lets take over and make it better approach recosting all the pilot and upgrade cards without having to follow current conventions such as higher pilot skill pilots costing more than lower skill pilots of the same ship. 

Just now with FFG and X-wing still being a print game still requiring all the cards to be present at tournaments and still supporting the game and its living aspects I can't get behind a whole lets take over and redo X-wing to make it better. Not that I don't support alternative formats heck I am still trying to get my AM (Allies and Mercenaries) format going despite the criticism that it would be just more jumpmasters. But it seems more like instead of tryign to make a new way to play the game (like Heroes of the Autri Cluster) you are trying to change the game without FFG's consent. As for what FFG does I would simply like to remind them that it is a print game and if they feel the need to take measures that move away from said media format then they should make accommodations (i.e. accepting legal printouts of squadron list in place of pilot upgrade cards) to keep the game accessible to all players.

"He's trying to make the game more enjoyable for himself and whoever wants to join, and I don't like that!"

You keep on rambling that you don't like it, but you don't explain why. You don't need to get behind it. You also don't have to play it. You don't have to blindly follow the impeding "disaster"
What are you afraid of? That people could like it better? That FFG could like it?

Your first paragraph is not helping your case - if anything it's an argument that Bob should have started earlier because the game has been flawed for a long time.

The second paragraph simply states that Bob should not start until FFG stops producing the game. Why? Do you think he'll never adjust his edition? Do you think he can't incorporate newer ships and cards? Also, we know how much work it is now, but it would be much worse in 10 years. So again, better start now than later.

And your last paragraph tries to make an arbitrary distinction between HotAC, AM and his CE. What's the difference? That his version is so good that it can be played competitively?

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I have seen a lot more unhappy players lately.  I think everyone should play the game the way you want to.  It might be hard to find those that want to play your way, but with all these dissatisfied players out there, it can't be too hard.  Try playing beyond tournament level X-wing.

HotAC is out there.  Missions and campaigns are out there.  Mario Kart X-wing is there.  B-teams games.  Limit it to,excluding certain builds.  Say something like 100 pts without TLT's and no pilots over PS 6.  Throw out 20 asteroids on the table.  Try a game of 200 pts with only generics.  There are a lot of ways to play the game, but avoid what you dislike.

I'm gearing up to run a bunch of non-meta stuff at GenCon, including a narrative event with unique rules and limited unique pilots.  Grab those rules and try them out in your local area.  Find ways to have fun with the game.  Try Dagobah Dave's Trench Run mission.  

Focus on what makes the game fun and play that way.

Edited by heychadwick
Typo

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32 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Focus on what makes the game fun and play that way.

What I've found that really diminishes my enjoyment of the game is this message board.  As it stands every single system or ability in the game is a NPE.  Turrets?  NPE.  Arc dodgers?  NPE.  Large ships? NPE.  Upgrades?  NPE.

In fact if you were to remake the game based on only those things that aren't a NPE... You'd have part of wave 1, and 2 ships from S&V.  I still enjoy playing the game but the toxicity in this forum has gotten to the point it reminds me of the WoW or SWTOR message boards.

Which is a shame because this used to be a great community, one in which we actually talked about what was good with the game.  

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50 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

  I think everyone should play the game the way you want to.  It might be hard to find those that want to play your way <snip>

In truth, I think this is actually a crux of the problem.  I have zero interest in 100/6, but since it is the standard format, how much work do I have to do to drum up alternate play?  If I walk into a FLGS, I strongly suspect that everyone will be ready and/or wanting to play 100/6.  And there is no way to spontaneously trick that format out into something more except to bust out a mission.  But a lot of those require special gear, defined ships, or other features that require 2 players to agree in advance that they are going to play that version of the game.

XWM needs to figure out a way to make 100/6 randomly and spontaneously not 100/6. . .objective cards, micro-mission cards, or whatever.  But until FFG begins to think outside the 3x3 box, not many other people will either, and this game's ship's will continue to be judged based on their effectiveness in the well-worn space sandbox.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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10 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Personally I think 100/6 is relatively close to being good.  Efforts to 'fix' the format that the majority of people seem to play should be a priority.

Well, you're in luck, because that where all the focus goes.  Always has, seems likely that it always will.  Even MajorJuggler admits that this Community Edition will focus exclusively on 100/6, at least to start.

OTOH, I think it is false and disingenuous to assume everyone is and/or wants to play 100/6.  A majority of people play the format because, officially, nothing else exists.  And a lot of the dissatisfaction in the game seems to stem from the fact that, in a community that discusses the game RAW, 100/6 is the only conversation to have.

 

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6 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Well, you're in luck, because that where all the focus goes.  Always has, seems likely that it always will.  Even MajorJuggler admits that this Community Edition will focus exclusively on 100/6, at least to start.

OTOH, I think it is false and disingenuous to assume everyone is and/or wants to play 100/6.  A majority of people play the format because, officially, nothing else exists.  And a lot of the dissatisfaction in the game seems to stem from the fact that, in a community that discusses the game RAW, 100/6 is the only conversation to have.

 

The challenge is laid down for anybody to create community efforts that support something other than 100/6.  

Care to take up the gauntlet and be constructive, or are you just going to carry on throwing obstructions at anybody working on 100/6?

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42 minutes ago, SOTL said:

The challenge is laid down for anybody to create community efforts that support something other than 100/6.  

Care to take up the gauntlet and be constructive, or are you just going to carry on throwing obstructions at anybody working on 100/6?

Aaaaaaannnnnnnddddd........you miss the point entirely.  Not to mention that you just stated the social equivalent of telling a poor begger to "get a job" with all the associated sympathy.

A.  There is already a ton of community support for something not-100/6.

B.  Throwing obstructions at 100/6?  I may as well stand in front of a freight train.

thus,

C.  The point is that there is very little OFFICIAL material for something not-100/6 that can be played without advanced-prep/mutual agreement or psuedo-100/6 with some element more than "kill them all."  I, unfortunately, DO NOT HAVE THE POWER TO CHANGE THIS except to state what I would like to see from FFG.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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7 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

I agree with that. There are definitely some card combinations that are pretty stupid and a waste of points and slots. But I don't think every possible combination needs to be viable in the exact same way to have a "balanced" game. Personally I would say it's enough if there is a build for every ship, for example. Maybe even for every pilot.

You should be able to take a ship or pilot and build something good with that. That's currently not possible.

While I agree with you, it seems like others don't. I've seen posts here that seem to resent the idea that they have to put thought into the list building stage. 

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8 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

"He's trying to make the game more enjoyable for himself and whoever wants to join, and I don't like that!"

You keep on rambling that you don't like it, but you don't explain why. You don't need to get behind it. You also don't have to play it. You don't have to blindly follow the impeding "disaster"
What are you afraid of? That people could like it better? That FFG could like it?

Your first paragraph is not helping your case - if anything it's an argument that Bob should have started earlier because the game has been flawed for a long time.

The second paragraph simply states that Bob should not start until FFG stops producing the game. Why? Do you think he'll never adjust his edition? Do you think he can't incorporate newer ships and cards? Also, we know how much work it is now, but it would be much worse in 10 years. So again, better start now than later.

And your last paragraph tries to make an arbitrary distinction between HotAC, AM and his CE. What's the difference? That his version is so good that it can be played competitively?

Some people like the game in its current form. X-wing is fun but many people (yourself to be included) are making it sound like it is the most broken thing ever. You play X-wing however you want that's fine, but telling everyone it is a mess and it should be played your way and by your ideas how it should be played. Forget it. If you are not having fun with X-wing move to a different game. 

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24 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

Some people like the game in its current form. X-wing is fun but many people (yourself to be included) are making it sound like it is the most broken thing ever. You play X-wing however you want that's fine, but telling everyone it is a mess and it should be played your way and by your ideas how it should be played. Forget it. If you are not having fun with X-wing move to a different game. 

Yeah... no. I see what you're trying to do but neither does it work nor are you right. I also want to point out that the one thing I'm consistently advocating for are more game modes. So it should not be surprising at all that I welcome another mode in the form of an overhaul.

The game is doing quite well, compared to the last year, and I have a ton of fun - I spend way too much time on it after all. But that doesn't mean I have to ignore the massive flaws.

You also - again - missed the point: I can play 100/6, epic and HotAC. Why not add CE to that mix? So no, I'm not telling others to play my way. Instead I'm saying that adding one more way to play the game is a good thing. And you're even more wrong as it's neither my way nor my ideas.

But it is quite telling because it's you who keeps repeating that the CE is somehow bad, that it should not be done yet and others should not like it. That's called projection.

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17 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

Some people like the game in its current form. X-wing is fun but many people (yourself to be included) are making it sound like it is the most broken thing ever. You play X-wing however you want that's fine, but telling everyone it is a mess and it should be played your way and by your ideas how it should be played. Forget it. If you are not having fun with X-wing move to a different game. 

Mm. How best to rebut this.

Your argument is the same as, "Don't bother with a mechanic, that knock in your engine ain't nothing serious, and it still drives right?" or "Man, that spot can't be skin cancer, you're only 25!" or to be even more blunt, "Have you SEEN Episode 1? Star Wars is ruined forever, the original trilogy is now awful, you should become a Trekkie, can I have your Kenner toys?"

Right now the game is still competitively playable by most definitions - buy the latest ships, keep up with the newest upgrades, don't bother having any favorite ship because that ship will be obsolete in 1-3 waves, and spirits forbid you might actually LIKE TIE/ADs or B-Wings! - but the warning signs are legion. Stacks of obsolete cards? A seemingly unfixable power unit? Fresh material running low? Consistent power creep? An FAQ that is bigger than the rulebook?

I'm reserving judgment until I see what they put out with the FAQ and announce at GenCon, but I dunno. Absent a major course correction...

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21 minutes ago, iamfanboy said:

Fresh material running low? 

More like fresh material being ignored:  Rogue One and Rebels could be mined for a lot more material like an x-wing upgrade, more y-wing pilots, Phoenix pilots, Imperial officers, mining guild TIEs, hammerhead corvette, etc., etc.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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12 minutes ago, iamfanboy said:

Mm. How best to rebut this.

Your argument is the same as, "Don't bother with a mechanic, that knock in your engine ain't nothing serious, and it still drives right?" or "Man, that spot can't be skin cancer, you're only 25!" or to be even more blunt, "Have you SEEN Episode 1? Star Wars is ruined forever, the original trilogy is now awful, you should become a Trekkie, can I have your Kenner toys?"

Right now the game is still competitively playable by most definitions - buy the latest ships, keep up with the newest upgrades, don't bother having any favorite ship because that ship will be obsolete in 1-3 waves, and spirits forbid you might actually LIKE TIE/ADs or B-Wings! - but the warning signs are legion. Stacks of obsolete cards? A seemingly unfixable power unit? Fresh material running low? Consistent power creep? An FAQ that is bigger than the rulebook?

I'm reserving judgment until I see what they put out with the FAQ and announce at GenCon, but I dunno. Absent a major course correction...

You can't really, my argument is these fixes might end up doing more harm than good. 

I get that right now as FFG devs learned (or should have learned) what makes a good ship/pilot/upgrade and what doesn't. There is also pressure that each new ship must be good. So the nature of the Wave release business model does mean that accretion makes the game vulnerable to power creep. The print model makes it very difficult to change things once it has been released without a new edition and that solution presents its own set of problems (mainly what to do about all the older components). 

But yeah it is better to wait for the official word. In forms of communication especially from one body of people to another body of people you have to ensure the message given and received is the one intended.

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8 hours ago, VanorDM said:

What I've found that really diminishes my enjoyment of the game is this message board.  As it stands every single system or ability in the game is a NPE.  Turrets?  NPE.  Arc dodgers?  NPE.  Large ships? NPE.  Upgrades?  NPE.

In fact if you were to remake the game based on only those things that aren't a NPE... You'd have part of wave 1, and 2 ships from S&V...

I think you can probably go a level or two deeper than that, and when you get right down to it you'll notice that the only thing that isn't an NPE to some of these people complaining is winning.

"It's perfectly OK if I fly Miranda/Dash but GOD FORBID someone plays Dengar/Nym against me, what an NPE"

Few people complain when the list they're flying is doing well.

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