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Darth Meanie

Time to Quit??

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1 hour ago, Elavion said:

 

That's kinda bragg-ish :P

While I do want you guys to succeed, realism kicks in. Even if your rules are much better, few people are actually going to play them, you can't provide new quality components (printed out cards and tokens aren't awful, but it's not nearly as nice as FFG quality), you have no marketing budget, no shiny thingies for tournaments (outside local area, at least), language barriers and many more issues that can't really be solved without acquiring a SW license and throwing money at it.

Not saying it's impossible for you guys to succed, just very unlikely. Good rules are not what sells games (just look at GW lol)

 

Claiming to be able to balance the game better than the professionals does at first appear to be pretentious, but we have two major advantages:

  1. Better game balance modeling
  2. Ability to change card text and costs in a rapid manner. Any tournaments using this format automatically become defacto playtesting data points.

FFG is hamstrung on #2 based on their business philosophy. #1 is the most pretentious claim, but also easily defendable. ;)

 

Thankfully I am not trying to sell a new game, I'm just meeting demand for functionality within the existing game. There is a massive latent demand for a more balanced version of the game, and it is accelerating even among the competitive community.

 

We won't need to print out new cards. All the pilot abilities and costs can be on a 8.5x11 page printed out from the squad builder. It's effectively a digital distribution method for the cards. If we don't want to run a risk of FFG copyright, we can always say "see standard FFG text" on cards we haven't changed.

 

Edited by MajorJuggler

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2 hours ago, Boba Rick said:

The women.

 

2 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

The Trench Run is one of my favorite scenarios . . .

 

7 minutes ago, Velvetelvis said:

I can't just  have seamen all over the place making a mess.

 

1 hour ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

Internet forums are the worst place to experience anything you love.

Except maybe. . .nevermind.

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Have you try 77plus format ? It's a really good format and with my local friends we have a ton of fun about this. :)

We don't draft, we use a 8Dice to choose what is our ship (from the 8 official choice for each faction) and let's go to battle.

Really fun, hope one day FFG will do more ! :)

Edited by Arkanta974

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2 hours ago, Managarmr said:

Because you can have fun at other formats than repetitive 100/6 with only OP stuff. Because its Star Wars:

pic3595569_md.jpg

I've never played in an Epic game that I liked more than 100/6. Different strokes and all, but it's not my cup of tea.

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2 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

The Community X-Wing idea is certainly bittersweet for me:  I think it is great that players are engaged and enthusiastic enough to want to make the game better, and sad that official game has gone so far afield that players feel they have no other choice but to reinvent the game*.

*Edit:  Sadly, I suspect all your work is going to be based around 100/6 play, the one aspect of XWM I have 100.6% no interest in.

100/6 is where we are starting. I would like to see other formats explored and standardized later as well. But we need the fundamentals working first.

Edited by MajorJuggler

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1 hour ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

In my opinion, this is a really bad idea.  I've been in gaming communities long enough to know that you're likely undertaking a world of thankless work and inviting lots of headaches upon yourselves.  You can't please everyone, and it's very unlikely you'll please even most people, since everyone has their own visions and ideals about this game.  But lacking any official authority to speak for the community at large beyond volunteerism initiative, folks will be even less accepting and more critical of your decisions.  For instance: from your community design team, how many Regional, National, Continental, and World Championships do you collectively have?   It's one thing if Heaver and other well-documented performers sat down to do a remake of the game, because they  would have a claim to some level of demonstrable expertise and understanding of the competitive game.  But it's another thing if a team of 'theory-crafters' without a demonstrated 1.0 pedigree of performance does it.  [...]

This is really funny.

First, I think Sozin and MajorJuggler are probably the two people that can get most other behind themselves. And even if they don't... so what? Do you think they rebalance the game for you? For me?! Take it or leave it. But given their credentials and abilities, I will take it.

Your whole wall of text is full of erroneous assumptions. For example, good player does not equal good designer - luckily Bob and Lyle are both. And X-Wing is not only being played for "swag". And nothing stops me from playing both the community mod and the FFG version - case in point is HotAC right now.

Most of your criticism is your speculation about acceptance - but I think you misunderstand something: they can listen to as much feedback as they want, but they are not getting paid. There is no justification for anyone of us to demand anything from them. And you know what? We will have much, much, much more interaction with the creators of the community mod than with FFG. Who is possibly one of the worst companies regarding communication with their player base. So really, your worst case is that they will be the same as FFG. In which case you didn't lose anything.

Edited by GreenDragoon
spelling in a foreign language is hard

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1 hour ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Even if your community model catches on to some significant degree, you'll have split an already waning playerbase.  You'll have those folks who want to do the Official Format, and those who want to do the Community Format, and all you've really accomplished is potentially halving the playerbase at a time when many regions and local communities are seeing decreasing event attendance. 

No, you are not.  You are splitting the player base into 2 separate groups who still need to buy the same plastic ships from the same source.  The game stays alive as long as product is being purchased, regardless of how people play the game.

Heck, if people all bought the ships of each wave and stomped them into powder, FFG would still have a reason to make the game (although play mechanics would become a lot less critical :P).

 

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1 hour ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

... the members of that organization can then elect Design Committee members from their ranks through elections.  This at least gives some airs of official authority

I vote for MajorJuggler and Sozin.

35 minutes ago, MajorJuggler said:

Running tournaments with it, but then that leads to the other major advantage: quick response time on buffs/nerfs, and being able to directly change ability verbage and point costs at will.

This is where I think the power will really be. I'd be so excited to join a Vassal league/tournament with the Community version rules, just for a chance to try it out in the wild. I don't know if people would still try to break the game with current power squads, even if they're toned down, or if everybody is going to be like me and run full speed towards "Fel's Wrath" and Lt. Lorrir to finally include them in competitive squads ;) 

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If X-Wing was tennis, the greatest fans and players would spend their time off lamenting the speed of serves, the unfairness of court surfaces, and the game-ending new rackets from Spalding. 

I love this community and have learned a lot here. But I would never direct a new player here. They would think they arrived too late. 

 

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3 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

So, we have burnout, NPE, meta of doom, and published pain as our monthly blog selection.

There have got to be addiction recovery and post-partum depression websites that are more chipper than this. . .anyone want to explain to me why we should even be playing this game anymore??

The game is fine. It's all the "buff this, nerf that, this is NPE, doomsayers" that make reading some of these threads so depressing that I've put the Suicide Hotline on speed dial.

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17 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

We will have much, much, much more interaction with the creators of the community mod than with FFG. Who is possibly one of the worst companies regarding communication with their player base.


I mean, I know it's hip and all now to hate on FFG because the forums have (like everything else in 2017) gone rather toxic and the podcasts have turned against the game along with many veteran players.  And I do believe that their customer service and communication and design quality took a dip after the Asmodee merger.  But I still think this is untrue.  Many other large companies in the industry still seem incomparably worse than FFG at lining up what's wanted and what's delivered.  For instance, GamesWorkshop and WizKids are, in my opinion and experience, far worse than FFG at this.  WotC may be a bit better, perhaps, as people seem to generally be pretty content with Magic at the moment, though I'm not sure how much of a two-way street exists between Magic Players and the Magic Designers (my guess is very little, but Magic is a game of rotating sets, settings, and characters and doesn't have to maintain an environment where all the beloved things from a huge IP are on par), but folks always seem to dislike the newest D&D things or edition changes.

I really do hope Sozin and Juggler succeed in their efforts, but I've been a part of quite a few gaming communities across genres for the better part of the past 20 years, and I've never seen a player-initiated attempt to redesign or manage a game really warrant all the effort that was sunk into it (for a variety of reasons).   Again, the real notable exception may Bloodbowls' The NAF, and that organization did not attempt to rebalance or redesign the game itself, outside of evaluating a few additional (and at one time official) team rosters.

So I'd say I'm a skeptic, though I'm certainly not rooting against them or hoping they fail.  I just think it's worth looking at the many other historical attempts to spearhead such community efforts in the long lineage of failed, dead, or forgotten card, board, and miniature games.  That being said, it's their free time and their hard work, so more power to them.
 

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41 minutes ago, Velvetelvis said:

It's a small thermal exhaust port.....just below the main port.

And that's why we can't have nice things on the internet.

 

That being said, I laughed loud enough that my neighbor next door wanted to see what all the hubub was about. Thank you for making my day. 

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47 minutes ago, Koing907 said:

I've never played in an Epic game that I liked more than 100/6. Different strokes and all, but it's not my cup of tea.

Thing is, there is only one type of tea being served:  "Tea, hot, Earl Gray."

Once a year you can put cream in it (when an Epic ship drops).

Iced tea, sweet tea, oolong, mate, tisanes, and all the rest have been contributed by players/fans, but because they are not "official," the state of the game is not judged by graphing* any of these other things.

But officially, if you don't want a steaming cup of Earl Gray, you really have no alternate options.

(*Seriously, why does any game need graphs to show its status?)

Edited by Darth Meanie

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2 minutes ago, Scopes said:

And that's why we can't have nice things on the internet.

 

That being said, I laughed loud enough that my neighbor next door wanted to see what all the hubub was about. Thank you for making my day. 

 

44 minutes ago, Velvetelvis said:

It's a small thermal exhaust port.....just below the main port.

Jesus....

 

I laughed....way to hard.

 

the savage on this forum has been epic as of late. so good. 

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1 minute ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

And I do believe that their customer service and communication and design quality took a dip after the Asmodee merger.

I'm not talking about their customer service, that's top notch. But when have they ever interacted with the community?

We got a hint of explanation during the Great Nerfening. We get error-prone advertisments disguised as articles every few weeks. But what about feedback? What about open communication? What about a Twitter rep? Anything social media? I'd like to insert my John Oliver impression here: it's 2017! That stuff is business 101 by now.

3 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

WotC may be a bit better, perhaps, as people seem to generally be pretty content with Magic at the moment, though I'm not sure how much of a two-way street exists between Magic Players and the Magic Designers (my guess is very little, but Magic is a game of rotating sets, settings, and characters and doesn't have to maintain an environment where all the beloved things from a huge IP are on par), but folks always seem to dislike the newest D&D things or edition changes.

Ah, but there is one massive difference: Have you ever taken the surveys? The extensive questions for content that they release for free, just because they want some feedback?
And then there is the sage advice, where they frequently answer questions on rulings.

What do we get? Some obscure emails that lose their validity after every FAQ.

6 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

So I'd say I'm a skeptic, though I'm certainly not rooting against them or hoping they fail.  I just think it's worth looking at the many other historical attempts to spearhead such community efforts in the long lineage of failed, dead, or forgotten card, board, and miniature games.  That being said, it's their free time and their hard work, so more power to them.

Duly noted, whatever that's worth. I agree that looking at other attempts can be very illustrative.

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8 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

What do we get? Some obscure emails that lose their validity after every FAQ.

Don't forget the vague hints that the Inner Circle Illuminati know more than you are allowed to know, but you'll find out. . .when it's time (in 2-3 more waves).

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5 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

(*Seriously, why does any game need graphs to show its status?)

Seriously, imagine the world of x-wing balancing on the back of a space turtle. If all the posts are care free casual wing, the turtle lists to the right and aether swims in clockwise circles forever. To balance that out, there exist graph & math posts as counterbalance and keep the turtle moving forward. Too many graph & math posts and the turtle starts in a counterclockwise arc.

As long as we receive regular releases and faqs and updates, the ebb and flow between the two sides remains relatively balanced so that the space turtle continues to move forward.  If, however, there is no news for a prolonged period of time, and especially if there's a rumor or leak circulating, the ebb and flow from one side to the other is so violent that the turtle loses forward momentum while rocking back and forth.

Therefore the graph & math posts are just as important as the casual paint and play posts. You might say that it's takes both types of posts for the space turtle to 'fly even better'... seriously.

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4 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

So, we have burnout, NPE, meta of doom, and published pain as our monthly blog selection.

There have got to be addiction recovery and post-partum depression websites that are more chipper than this. . .anyone want to explain to me why we should even be playing this game anymore??

YAH I CAN SPLAINE.

FIRST: STOP PLAYING THE ace-wing-meta=yarb-card game thing...

SECOND: Let go your ADD-Need to run zoom thirty minute 1--/6 games and try to get two or three in so you can have a chance to win at least one or maybe two on game nite.

THIRD: LEARN TO IGNORE THE FFG META-FAQ-MESS.

FORTH: PLAY ACTUAL STAR WARS X-WING!

FifTH: Learn that EPIC and Cinematic play are REAL STAR WARS Games. The ace-wing-a-ding is ADD Card Crap.

SIXTH: STAY AT HOME PLAY AT HOME WITH FRIENDS AND FAMILY ( This is what you do to keep crap=power-40k rejects out of your wonderful STAR WARS Gaming...or if you are lucky enough to have an actual scumbag gamer free FLGS then just play their and send me your address so I can come to this rare and wonderfully clean public game environment too!)

SEVENTH: REMEMBER YOUR ROOTS... way back when you laughed and screamed with joy and cried with hope while you watched the original trilogy (except the dam-ewoks) and bring that REAL CONSCIOUSNESS to your wonderful game nights.

See... how... easy?!

PSA: LOVE STAR WARS AND KEEP YOUR VERSION OF IT SAFE AND STRONG AND THE FORCE WILL REMAIN WITH YOU... ALWAYS!

Yah... DAT!

mf_emoticon_schoolyou_jedi.gif

 

 

 

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21 minutes ago, citruscannon said:

The computer game civilization has a long history of complete conversions, fan modification and rebalancing attempts. This thing can be done well with enough support and data, I'm very optimistic!

This is a good point, though computer games have the huge advantage that whatever group of people are interested around the world, they can all link up and play with little to no effort.  The community is instantly and effortlessly in touch.  In tabletop gaming, you're really dependent on the local scene and the local community.  It doesn't do a lot of good if a few thousand people are interested in a new version of a tabletop game if there's no one local to your area who is (outside of Vassal, of course).

The regional and local nuances of hobby gaming is a big part of why there's no chains for hobby gaming stores.  The market is small enough and the tastes and fancies of a local community particular enough that you can't really have a national or continental chain of stores that follow a similar business model, especially since brick and mortar game stores have such razor thing profit margins.  GW Stores are the one exception in the US, and they've had a complicated history and story.  But, for instance, there's a store here in town that stocks every single available Warmachine/Hordes release, and the Warmahorde crowd is a huge part of its business.  Drive two hours across state in any direction, and you won't find a gamestore that has any Warmahordes, outside of a few dusty products in a clearance bin because the game never took there.  You will, however, find a store that's got an entire wall lined with Malifaux product, despite no other stores in the state stocking it.  And so forth.

But the take home message is that a game is only as good as your local community, and no matter how great a game is, if you don't have a local group to play it with it might as well just be a box of A.L.F. Trading cards.

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