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On 8/15/2017 at 5:05 AM, Richardbuxton said:

That Attack upgrade definitely could have been worded better, something along the lines of:

"The Force User is capable of causing damage using target object. Any attempt to cause such damage requires a Discipline check with the difficulty being equal to the Silhouette of the target object. Both the target object and the second object it collides with suffer 10 damage per Silhouette of the target object (Sil 0 = 5)."

 

Why does the FaD core book remove the "Discipline" part of the move control upgrade for hurling objects? It says do a ranged attack but it doesn't say which skill. I read the entire section but it doesn't seem to say which skill to use. In the EotE book it is clearly discipline, and most here have assumed that, but has it been clarified by Errata or a developer?

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2 hours ago, dtdunn said:

Why does the FaD core book remove the "Discipline" part of the move control upgrade for hurling objects? It says do a ranged attack but it doesn't say which skill. I read the entire section but it doesn't seem to say which skill to use. In the EotE book it is clearly discipline, and most here have assumed that, but has it been clarified by Errata or a developer?

They did this because in the Edge Core book, the only time you attack with the Force is with the Move power, so they put the skill to be used there.

However, in Force and Destiny, you can attack with the Force in multiple ways, including the Move power and the Unleash power, among others (Harm could be another potential option, although GMs ruling it uses Medicine would not be too far outside the norm).  So, they put in the description of the Discipline skill that it is the default skill used anytime someone makes an attack with a Force power.

I agree that it's somewhat confusing, but it is in there, just in a counterintuitive location.

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I have a question if you have Move power tree completely filled, then you can move up to 5 objects, move objects up to silhouette 4, and move objects up to Extreme range from the character. Now my question is this can you apply those aspects of Move ALL together, meaning you can move 5 silhouette 4 objects from a distance of Extreme Range. Or can you only use one aspect at a time, like Moving 5 silhouette 0 objects at short range, OR, Moving 1 silhouette 4 object at short range, OR moving 1 silhouette 0 object from a distance of Extreme Range. Assuming you generate enough Force points to make the Check. I am just double checking.

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34 minutes ago, capnhayes said:

I have a question if you have Move power tree completely filled, then you can move up to 5 objects, move objects up to silhouette 4, and move objects up to Extreme range from the character. Now my question is this can you apply those aspects of Move ALL together, meaning you can move 5 silhouette 4 objects from a distance of Extreme Range. Or can you only use one aspect at a time, like Moving 5 silhouette 0 objects at short range, OR, Moving 1 silhouette 4 object at short range, OR moving 1 silhouette 0 object from a distance of Extreme Range. Assuming you generate enough Force points to make the Check. I am just double checking.

You can do all at once. And you van use the Strength upgrade multiple times. So if you activate it once, you can move Sil 4. Twice, Sil 8 (Star Destroyer), three pips would be Sil 12, but I don't know of anything that is Sil 12 because it's just so massive

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51 minutes ago, Underachiever599 said:

You can do all at once. And you van use the Strength upgrade multiple times. So if you activate it once, you can move Sil 4. Twice, Sil 8 (Star Destroyer), three pips would be Sil 12, but I don't know of anything that is Sil 12 because it's just so massive

Well, the Death Star, as published, is Sil 20 :P .  Although keep in mind that most GMs would require you to spend some pips on Range to affect things of Sil 5 or above; If you can't fit the entire object within your Range, then you're gonna have trouble Move-ing it anywhere :) .

Edited by Absol197

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I have read this thread with both a sense of awe and dread, as opposed to great amusement. Yes, there is a great bit of "Yes, it can!" - "No. it can't!" level of discussion going on, especially about the Hurl-opposed-to-drop wording of Move. Fine.

So it is difficult to the extreme to get a Star Destroyer to crush a village. It is far too big (disregarding Yoda's remarks about size for a bit) to just be moved, it has tremendous engine power to keep it in the air and to oppose the direction Move is trying to get it to move into. I cannot just "drop" it to cause damage, I need to "hurl" it, as that is the only way to deal damage using Move powers. Appearently, just picking up something, lifting it high up in the air, and stop using the Move power cannot cause it damage, even if it has no repulsor units to keep it afloat in the air, gravity takes over and it actually plummets (I shudder to use the word "drops" here) to the ground from whatever height I lifted it up to.

 

I see both sides of the equasion, where probably neither is totally wrong. but there is one thing I didn't quite find. "Direct damage" opposing "indirect damage".

 

I use Move to lift a rock (or Stormtrooper, or Star Destroyer, whatever) and use the Control (Hurl) upgrade to move it into a target fast enough to deal direct damage. I use the rock ( or ...etc.) as the physical object (ammo) for a direct line-of-fire type of attack. Disregard difficulties for the sake of the arguement. I Move-Force-Power something, hurl it, hit it with a form of combat check, deal damage. Direct damage. That much is clear.

Well, then next I am aboard a hovering airspeeder, and I use Move to affect the side of a mountain, causing a couple of 'large-ish' (Silhouette 2) boulders to start rolling down the mountain side, causing a massive rock slide or avalanche to bury a village in the valley below. I am not using Move to hurl the boulders directly at the village, I am not targeting them at people or buildings or vehicles specifically. I just use Move to get them into a position where they start to roll down naturally, under the influence of gravity, and cause a massive (un)natural disaster. What would the indirect damage from this action be (besides conflict for actively causing destruction of nature and artificial structures and all manner of death or severe wounds on living creatures caught in the rock slide or avalanche)?

Do I need to have a Control upgrade and 'hurl' a disabled space ship into the sun to cause it damage? Or can I just use Move to give the disabled space ship (like an X-Wing to keep it simple, and of low enough difficulty) a little nudge and have the natural laws of physics (through mass and inertia) continue to move the space ship towards the sun? What would the damage to the space ship be when it reaches the sun (or causes it to come close enough anyways)? Would that be "0", because I didn't have the Control (Hurl) upgrade? I concur that I would not do any direct damage, but what would the indirect damage be when a disabled X-Wing tumbles into a giant ball of fusing gases, radiation and quite some heat?

When atop a cliffside, with a 1.000 feet drop next to me, I use Move to shove the gamorrean guard that is assaulting me a short range to the side. Over the edge of the cliff. I do not use Move to deal direct damage, I do not use it to slam the gamorrean into the cliff side or bash it into the ground below. I simply shove him over the edge. Then stop using Move. What would the indirect damage be for a gamorrean that has no solid ground beneath his feet, just a 1.000 feet deep fall, and that is no longer held in place by the Move power telekinetically? Again, "0" because I didn't get he Control (Hurl) upgrade? Or is there a 1.000 feet fall with a sudden stop at the end? A gravity induced crash into the ground 1.000 feet below its starting point.

Is moving something slowly in a straight line, floating a meter above the ground using Move a function of Control (Hurl)? be careful with the simple answer! Because what about moving something slowly in a straight line, floating a meter above the ground using Move, above and parallel to a mag-train monorail? When the mag-train itself is speeding towards the object your are simply moving, slowly, in a predicable line, what deals damage? I dare say I didn't use Control (Hurl) to deal direct damage. I simply held an object in a place where it met another object moving at its own break-neck speed on a track it couldn't leave, severely lowering its chances of preventing an impact.

 

In thirty-three years of playing roleplaying games of all types, I noticed one thing. Sometimes the rules aren't overpowered, but the use of a free mind and a little bit of logic might be. And as long as an RPG setting or world uses any form of (assumed) physical laws (mass, gravity, inertia, velocity-impact, etc.) , people will find a way to use those to their advantage. Often it is up to the game master to handle such instances.

Oh! To dread hand-held fire extinguishers in a science fiction setting for all their unintended uses! ;)

Cheers!

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All those examples fall into a narrative description. The GM should be deciding a difficulty for a Discipline Check (or if it’s opposed) , work out the Force pip requirements using the normal upgrade system.

Then hand out conflict like candy, casually pushing an opponent of a 1000 meter high cliff should be a momentous event in the pc’s life, they should either feel remorse for a very long time or suddenly find killing a lot more appealing.

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1 hour ago, Richardbuxton said:

All those examples fall into a narrative description.

True. But they are also all examples of using Move without the Control (Hurl) upgrade, and still seeing something detrimental happening to the target or the environment.

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Definitely, you can kill someone with a kitchen knife while they sleep . It’s not what they are intended for, but you will still be charged for murder.

Move is designed (badly imho, but still it is what it is) for a universe where killing someone by throwing them off a cliff is really bad, but killing them by bashing them into their buddies is less bad. 

The movies are not consistent with this stuff so making a game consistent is really difficult. If a player wants to do something destructive then make a gm call, kill an entire village, then hand out the conflict and get on with the story of why the character did that. The easy path is the dark path, emphasis it and make it a central pillar of the story 

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Is there errata for move allowing things to move from other than short range, then? I thought basic power is very clear that you can move something FROM short range to your maximum range (which starts at short). But I still see lots of talk of moving things from longer than short range.

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4 hours ago, Darzil said:

Is there errata for move allowing things to move from other than short range, then? I thought basic power is very clear that you can move something FROM short range to your maximum range (which starts at short). But I still see lots of talk of moving things from longer than short range.

No errata, but there are these things caked Range Upgrades that let you spend Force points to Move things that are further away :) .

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Yes, which lets you upgrade the range you move things to, as stated in the move basic power. At least that’s how I interpret it stating a fixed range to move from, and a range to move things to, which starts st short, but can be increased.

Edited by Darzil

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5 hours ago, Darzil said:

Is there errata for move allowing things to move from other than short range, then? I thought basic power is very clear that you can move something FROM short range to your maximum range (which starts at short). But I still see lots of talk of moving things from longer than short range.

By strict reading of the Range upgrades, those only allow to move an object outside of short range, with the base power's requirement of "an object within short range" is unaffected.

However, there was a dev answer over in the EotE forum sticky thread for such that said Range upgrades would expand both the initial range the targeted object had to be within and how far out you could move it.  So per said dev answer, activating two Range upgrades would let you target an object within long range and move it to anyplace within long range.

Said dev ruling isn't listed in either the FAQ or the errata, but I've personally been allowing Range upgrades to work as per the dev answer.

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On 2/24/2018 at 5:14 PM, Absol197 said:

Well, the Death Star, as published, is Sil 20 :P .  Although keep in mind that most GMs would require you to spend some pips on Range to affect things of Sil 5 or above; If you can't fit the entire object within your Range, then you're gonna have trouble Move-ing it anywhere :) .

I'm of the more strict sense to not allow anything that can't fit in the Extreme Range category to be moved. Star Destroyers, since this is the one that comes up a lot, are 1.6km long and I cap Extreme Range at around 1km. Not to mention they have engines, repulsors and such that would make it near impossible. If the check could even be completed, the character would have to be essentially directly underneath one and the only place they could hurl it would be down to the ground, thereby killing themself and everything around them. The Star Destroyer would be unharmed due to the 10 armor, which is hilarious.

On 2/25/2018 at 4:23 AM, Richardbuxton said:

Move is designed (badly imho, but still it is what it is) for a universe where killing someone by throwing them off a cliff is really bad, but killing them by bashing them into their buddies is less bad.

Funny enough, Rebels has the Jedi constantly chucking stormtroopers off of buildings with the Force.

On 2/25/2018 at 12:52 PM, Donovan Morningfire said:

By strict reading of the Range upgrades, those only allow to move an object outside of short range, with the base power's requirement of "an object within short range" is unaffected.

However, there was a dev answer over in the EotE forum sticky thread for such that said Range upgrades would expand both the initial range the targeted object had to be within and how far out you could move it.  So per said dev answer, activating two Range upgrades would let you target an object within long range and move it to anyplace within long range.

Said dev ruling isn't listed in either the FAQ or the errata, but I've personally been allowing Range upgrades to work as per the dev answer.

Never seen nor heard of his dev ruling but I'm not really sure that the range upgrades are the thing that needs to be so limited with Move.

Edited by GroggyGolem

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