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6 minutes ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

Actually I believe the Developer answered question related to this very point stated that movement of an item is done in a single round, regardless of range

Again, clarified, that the entire move happens in one round. I don't agree with it, but it is what it is.

I am curious what you would do to prevent? Not that I like it (despite how creative it is), but its not metagaming at all. If someone "moves" a star destroyer sized boulder (we are talking like a ELE sized asteroid here) and releases it this boulder from a height of 100 meters, the village underneath it will be destroyed. Heaven forbid they do it from a 1000 meters. This is not metagaming. This is how physics works.

Can arguments be made about "it requires lots of XP"? Sure, but those arguments fall flat on me.

Can arguments be made about "It makes you a one trick pony?" Sure, but what exactly is a "one trick pony?"

Can arguments be made that is "breaks the implied GM - Player narrative story telling and the player should self police?" Sure, but any game mechanic that requires a player or GM to simply avoid using because it 'breaks' the game is by definition a broken rule

Can arguments be made that there are "more effective and "broken" ways to do damage" in this system? Yes, there can be this argument and while I tend to agree with it, I would also say that just because you can kill someone using autofire doesn't mean you should double down on those broken rules and make another way to kill someone dead just as easily.

The problem there is a matter of accuracy. Without The ranged attack roll, you can't target that village and therefore the "rock" automatically misses doing no damage.

Edited by Tramp Graphics

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13 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The problem there is a matter of accuracy. Without The ranged attack roll, you can't target that village and therefore the "rock" automatically misses doing no damage.

Oops, the rock hit the backside of a hill, rolled backwards and crushed your starship. 

You really need to learn how to better control your power!

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3 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

 

The problem there is a matter of accuracy. Without The ranged attack roll, you can't target that village and therefore the "rock" automatically misses doing no damage.

Care to quote a rule that even comes close to such a hypothesis?

There isn't one. Don't even try to throw your "RAW" crap at me on this one.

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21 minutes ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

Well despairs can cause bad things to happen....

@2P51 doesn't think the rules support me calling for a Discipline skill check alongside the Force power check in such a situation:

So, if the problem is rules-lawyer players who refuse to pop for a measly 10 XP Control upgrade and simultaneously make the case that they should be able to "drop" something to cause damage instead of "hurling" it, and that they aren't required to make a skill check, and assuming for some reason I'm not allowed to override this player, then what happens to the rock once it's dropped is completely out of the player's control and completely within my control.

IOW in this ridiculous rules-lawyer scenario, no Despair is needed for something bad to happen. Talk about overpowered! ;)

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11 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

So, if the problem is rules-lawyer players who refuse to pop for a measly 10 XP Control upgrade and simultaneously make the case that they should be able to "drop" something to cause damage instead of "hurling" it, and that they aren't required to make a skill check, and assuming for some reason I'm not allowed to override this player, then what happens to the rock once it's dropped is completely out of the player's control and completely within my control.

IOW in this ridiculous rules-lawyer scenario, no Despair is needed for something bad to happen. Talk about overpowered!

My comment wasn't about whether or not a skill check is required to use the basic power to lift a silhouette 8 object. It was about whether dropping that object on something or someone causes damage.

If it were at my table, yeah, it would take a discipline check to lift an object like that using the basic power. If a player wants to balk at that ruling, they are welcome to do so and give a rationed response as to why it shouldn't require a check (which I would listen to and take into account; but not necessarily reverse myself just because).

Quoting some nebulous "RAW" rationale wouldn't get them very far with me.

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If you are trying to hit a specific thing with an object. It does not matter if you drop it, throw it, etc. You need to make a ranged check. QAt a difficulty set by the size of the object. All the difficulties involved in a range check apply. Trying to weasel out of it by saying I am just  gonna drop it is bs. Damaging random crap is also going to cause conflict.

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11 hours ago, 2P51 said:

You all are conflating the Control upgrade to me there is no other way this power can be used to cause damage.  That is fiction.  

If I lift something to extreme range and drop it, I am not using the Force to inflict any damage at all with the Force.  Gravity and the object's mass are doing that.  There is no roll involved in the falling rules.

If the object happens to be sil 8 it's going to fall and crush a great deal of 'stuff' under it.  That's all doable with FR3.

Move is OP.

 

Ultimately I get what you're saying. I agree it's horrendously OP. Which is why I hit it hard with additional rules. 

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Somehow you all are right:

yes to inflict damage with an Object to anything beneath it you will have to make the dicipline check and need the hurl Upgrade.

But I think you missed the point our friendly neighborhood Pirate was making.

He never intended to hit anything with the sil 8 object.

His scenario is just: "PC walks over a plain field, he sees an AT-AT that is abandone for which ever reason (no pilots, no stormies, not even the keys are in this AT-AT) then he decides: Man I'll use MOVE to levitate this fine monstrosity of technique up to the skys. Using Move base power and range and strength upgrade at this point no discipline check is needed per RAW and per RAW it only took this one round to do so (quite the acceleration).
Now there is an AT-AT hovering in mid-air on an extrem range. if the PC now dicides that he won't keep the MOVE active (so no need for the so often reciteted sidebar ) the AT-AT will just fall down (remember plain field nothing to hit anywhere close) thus the AT-AT will take falling Damage (I'm away from my books right now so I can't calculate the damage proberbly) this will take quite some damage to the AT-AT (even so his Armor soaks up a lot of the fall-damage and his Hull will also can take quite the hit (remember fall damage is personal scale damage so each point of Armor soaks 10 points and only every 10 points is one Hulldamage), so I'm not sure if the AT-AT will be destroyed in one go or not, but this way no hurl or discipline would be needed by RAW. this is indeed very strong since you could use this to stand on a hill/mountain/tower with sight on the Parkingyard of an emperial base and flip one parked and unmaned vehicle after the other out of commision without the need of discipline checks.

the jedi force user may gain 2 conflict for destroing proberty (except it is to prevent the empire to use these thing to execute Order 89 - "execute all towns people because they didn't sell the gouverners beloved juicy-juicy drink" which other wise would start at dawn)

(but then again one Destiny Point Flip and the GM can turn the OP arround: Right after you took the second vehicle out of the parking lot and let it fall to destruction outside of the base, the sensors of the defensesystem are targeting you und 4 turrents of mounted twin-heavy-repeating-blasters are aimed at you... good luck on the following 4 to 8 hits...)

 

As for the other Examples of hovering something above anything else to smash it (the meteor for example) yep that would require the discipline check.
And on fail you narrate. "While hovering the meteor 100 m above the village you hear the despaired screams of thousands townspeople and it seems you are as cold hearted as you thought you would be... for some reason you thrown the Ggiant-Space-Mountain beyond the city.

same goes if the PC tries to hover the rocky-mountain over the city and the do the "deactivate move stunt" he would plain miss the city: "seems your aim was quite off since you only hit the fields before the city without any casuallities... it's like a miracle... ok the meteor it self get falling damage from that action and breaks down to a lot of smaller stone Sil 0-6/7

 

Of course as GM you can always ask for the diciplin check even to lift a little rock, since it is RAW that the GM has always the last word and may add or leave things for better work at the table, so in the end every GM is right, evenso your players will arguee about that one ^^

Edited by Nightone

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Don't care what anyone says, lifting a mountain is an impossible check. Impossible checks required a Destiny Point flip just to attempt which prevents a Lightside Force User from drawing upon the Dark Side... you want to destroy crap with it? There's some upgrades coming your way, by the way how are you close enough to not get caught in the ensuing shock wave.

ATAT is definitely the problem though, too small to be impossible, too big to fit the cannon.

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yeah the aftermath is of course always a hinderence, same goes for the SSD or SD if you anyhow actually manage to hit anything with it... well you are in the vicinity and RAW states the GM may decide if and what targets are also hit by big objects... no need for any despair to make a TPK here ^^

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That Attack upgrade definitely could have been worded better, something along the lines of:

"The Force User is capable of causing damage using target object. Any attempt to cause such damage requires a Discipline check with the difficulty being equal to the Silhouette of the target object. Both the target object and the second object it collides with suffer 10 damage per Silhouette of the target object (Sil 0 = 5)."

 

Add to that an increase in Force Pip cost to activate strength from 1 to 2 Pips potentially even a "strength can only be activated once" clause and the power requires much less GM/Player negotiations.

Making "the narrative" the balancing factor for anything in an RPG seems great on paper. When it works, with just the right group, it works really well... but Move and Autofire are just too much of a headache for far too many groups.

I'm grateful my group doesn't have these problems, but after 4 years of following these forums I think the world would be a better place if those two things had been designed differently.

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4 minutes ago, Nightone said:

yeah the aftermath is of course always a hinderence, same goes for the SSD or SD if you anyhow actually manage to hit anything with it... well you are in the vicinity and RAW states the GM may decide if and what targets are also hit by big objects... no need for any despair to make a TPK here ^^

It doesn't even have to hit them, the displaced air, rock, trees, houses and people will obliterate anything within Extreme personal range of the dropped object... the acting Force User can't actually be far enough away and still use the power.

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3 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

It doesn't even have to hit them, the displaced air, rock, trees, houses and people will obliterate anything within Extreme personal range of the dropped object... the acting Force User can't actually be far enough away and still use the power.

Which is why I've always found this argument to be pointless.  With the RAW about range for the Move power, without adding a house rule to allow use at Planetary bands, there's pretty much no way for a Force User to manipulate an object that big, and not actually be ON the bloody thing.  Or standing so close that they would be hit by the very inaccurate attack themselves.  

I mean, people keep using the Starkiller scene from FU 1 to talk about this type of use of Move, but they fail to forget that he pulled that thing from orbit.  Which is hardly Personal range distances.   So it already doesn't work.

Now, that being said, I personally don't have an issue with house ruling to allow this.   I play with people who are  *bleeping* reasonable, and not power hungry sociopaths, who only roleplay to cause as much destruction and death as they can manage in the shortest timeframe possible.   So I don't really worry about them constantly grabbing Sil 8 objects and crushing every challenge they have in front of them.   Because they are reasonable human beings that understand a thing called personal restraint.    

 

Besides, if they are trying to play a "good guy", just remind them that they will probably kill several dozen, if not hundreds of innocent people when they crush a city with their sil 8 attack.

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9 hours ago, Nightone said:

Somehow you all are right:

yes to inflict damage with an Object to anything beneath it you will have to make the dicipline check and need the hurl Upgrade.

But I think you missed the point our friendly neighborhood Pirate was making.

He never intended to hit anything with the sil 8 object.

His scenario is just: "PC walks over a plain field, he sees an AT-AT that is abandone for which ever reason (no pilots, no stormies, not even the keys are in this AT-AT) then he decides: Man I'll use MOVE to levitate this fine monstrosity of technique up to the skys. Using Move base power and range and strength upgrade at this point no discipline check is needed per RAW and per RAW it only took this one round to do so (quite the acceleration).
Now there is an AT-AT hovering in mid-air on an extrem range. if the PC now dicides that he won't keep the MOVE active (so no need for the so often reciteted sidebar ) the AT-AT will just fall down (remember plain field nothing to hit anywhere close) thus the AT-AT will take falling Damage (I'm away from my books right now so I can't calculate the damage proberbly) this will take quite some damage to the AT-AT (even so his Armor soaks up a lot of the fall-damage and his Hull will also can take quite the hit (remember fall damage is personal scale damage so each point of Armor soaks 10 points and only every 10 points is one Hulldamage), so I'm not sure if the AT-AT will be destroyed in one go or not, but this way no hurl or discipline would be needed by RAW. this is indeed very strong since you could use this to stand on a hill/mountain/tower with sight on the Parkingyard of an emperial base and flip one parked and unmaned vehicle after the other out of commision without the need of discipline checks.

the jedi force user may gain 2 conflict for destroing proberty (except it is to prevent the empire to use these thing to execute Order 89 - "execute all towns people because they didn't sell the gouverners beloved juicy-juicy drink" which other wise would start at dawn)

(but then again one Destiny Point Flip and the GM can turn the OP arround: Right after you took the second vehicle out of the parking lot and let it fall to destruction outside of the base, the sensors of the defensesystem are targeting you und 4 turrents of mounted twin-heavy-repeating-blasters are aimed at you... good luck on the following 4 to 8 hits...)

 

As for the other Examples of hovering something above anything else to smash it (the meteor for example) yep that would require the discipline check.
And on fail you narrate. "While hovering the meteor 100 m above the village you hear the despaired screams of thousands townspeople and it seems you are as cold hearted as you thought you would be... for some reason you thrown the Ggiant-Space-Mountain beyond the city.

same goes if the PC tries to hover the rocky-mountain over the city and the do the "deactivate move stunt" he would plain miss the city: "seems your aim was quite off since you only hit the fields before the city without any casuallities... it's like a miracle... ok the meteor it self get falling damage from that action and breaks down to a lot of smaller stone Sil 0-6/7

 

Of course as GM you can always ask for the diciplin check even to lift a little rock, since it is RAW that the GM has always the last word and may add or leave things for better work at the table, so in the end every GM is right, evenso your players will arguee about that one ^^

By RAW, what happens narratively then is that the object is lowered to the ground. not dropped suddenly, destroying it. The only way to inflict damage on anything using Move (including the object being moved) is through the hurl upgrade. There is no circumventing that rule. 

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I think this back and forth is pointless now.  Everyone has clearly indicated their thoughts on the ruling of the power, and apparently nobody is going to convince the other side to change their mind, given the tone of the replies back and forth.  So, how about you end it here, instead of loading up who knows how many more pages of this thread with what is basically a 2 person rules lawyering bickerfest of "Yes it does work that way"  "No it doesn't"  "Uhuh!"  "Nuh uh!"  over and over.    Cool?   Cool.

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6 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

I mean, people keep using the Starkiller scene from FU 1 to talk about this type of use of Move, but they fail to forget that he pulled that thing from orbit.  Which is hardly Personal range distances.   So it already doesn't work.

Not to mention that in the scene itself, Starkiller isn't pulling the ship out of orbit, as it was already falling from orbit before he got involved.  All he really did was guide the ship into more of a controlled crash so that the impact wouldn't wipe out everything within a much larger radius that would have included Starkiller, his ship, and his tagalong companions, to say nothing of what ever other living beings were in the area.

He largely waited until the thing was within extreme range (having already hyper-focused on Move by buying as many upgrades as possible) and then used the power (along with the GM possibly including Discipline checks at a Daunting if not Formidable or Impossible difficulty) to make it a controlled crash instead of a planet-killing impact.  He's also got a Force Rating of at least 5, if not a 6 (in story he was an insanely powerful Force user, though often getting by more on sheer brute strength than refined technique that more experienced Force users such as Palps and Yoda favored), and given he's probably still using dark side pips as he's not quite hit "redemption" yet at that point in the story, he's got pretty good odds of getting four dark side pips on that many Force dice.

Then again, I hold that "I saw it done in a video game!" as being the worst possible justification as to why something should be included in an RPG.

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13 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

I think this back and forth is pointless now.  Everyone has clearly indicated their thoughts on the ruling of the power, and apparently nobody is going to convince the other side to change their mind, given the tone of the replies back and forth.  So, how about you end it here, instead of loading up who knows how many more pages of this thread with what is basically a 2 person rules lawyering bickerfest of "Yes it does work that way"  "No it doesn't"  "Uhuh!"  "Nuh uh!"  over and over.    Cool?   Cool.

Like I said earlier, it's one of those things that's going to keep cropping up, much like autofire until there's a new edition or the writers do a total re-write of the entire Move power.

Edit: And probably much like WotC's attempts to fix Move Object in the RCR version of Star Wars or the Polymorph spell in 3.5 D&D, any re-writes are bound to simply create new arguments and new ways to abuse the re-written power, making any efforts to "fix" the perceived issue a fool's venture.

Edited by Donovan Morningfire

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2 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Not to mention that in the scene itself, Starkiller isn't pulling the ship out of orbit, as it was already falling from orbit before he got involved.  All he really did was guide the ship into more of a controlled crash so that the impact wouldn't wipe out everything within a much larger radius that would have included Starkiller, his ship, and his tagalong companions, to say nothing of what ever other living beings were in the area.

Really?  Wow I don't remember much of that game at this point then.  I thought he was just doing a Rocks Fall Every Imp Dies attack for Awesome Points.  

 

 

2 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

He largely waited until the thing was within extreme range (having already hyper-focused on Move by buying as many upgrades as possible) and then used the power (along with the GM possibly including Discipline checks at a Daunting if not Formidable or Impossible difficulty) to make it a controlled crash instead of a planet-killing impact.  He's also got a Force Rating of at least 5, if not a 6 (in story he was an insanely powerful Force user, though often getting by more on sheer brute strength than refined technique that more experienced Force users such as Palps and Yoda favored), and given he's probably still using dark side pips as he's not quite hit "redemption" yet at that point in the story, he's got pretty good odds of getting four dark side pips on that many Force dice.

Then again, I hold that "I saw it done in a video game!" as being the worst possible justification as to why something should be included in an RPG.

Eh, again, this depends on personal preference.  I guess I've just played too much Scion and Exalted, where doing insane, high level things is standard operating procedure.  The idea of allowing someone to use a galaxy spanning power field to lift huge objects in dramatic ways just doesn't really feel off to me.  Sure it hasn't been "established in the movies" but when has that EVER stopped a Star Wars fun from doing stuff, and filling in the gaps with their own theories about what is/isn't canon?    We've got 30+  years of Legacy material that support the idea that fans will make up their own rules when they want to. :D  

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12 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Like I said earlier, it's one of those things that's going to keep cropping up, much like autofire until there's a new edition or the writers do a total re-write of the entire Move power.

Edit: And probably much like WotC's attempts to fix Move Object in the RCR version of Star Wars or the Polymorph spell in 3.5 D&D, any re-writes are bound to simply create new arguments and new ways to abuse the re-written power, making any efforts to "fix" the perceived issue a fool's venture.

I'm aware it keeps cropping up, I've commented myself (in other threads) on the big 3 that we keep seeing here, as you did.   I'm simply asking the people in this specific thread, who were continuing a fruitless argument about rules lawyering something that is already a fuzzy rule in the first place, to stop doing it.   It wasn't productive to the thread, and was simply derailing it into a back and forth that served no real purpose.   After 5+ posts back and forth either way, with no shifting in positions about how to read the rules, is there any point to continue the discussion?  By that point, in my opinion, all that is further illustrated, is how unmoving (Hah! pun!) both parties are on their stance.  It's not a debate anymore, it's just words being tossed back and forth, serving no purpose.

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6 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Eh, again, this depends on personal preference.  I guess I've just played too much Scion and Exalted, where doing insane, high level things is standard operating procedure.  The idea of allowing someone to use a galaxy spanning power field to lift huge objects in dramatic ways just doesn't really feel off to me.  Sure it hasn't been "established in the movies" but when has that EVER stopped a Star Wars fun from doing stuff, and filling in the gaps with their own theories about what is/isn't canon?    We've got 30+  years of Legacy material that support the idea that fans will make up their own rules when they want to. :D  

Difference is that Scion and Exalted are built around the characters doing larger-than-life stunts, and the players coming up with over-the-top ways to use their powers.  All of the players know ahead of time what they're getting into, and have agreed they're going to be playing Shonen Anime: The RPG (whacked out hairstyles optional)

Star Wars as a setting generally isn't built to accommodate that style of play as a regular thing, and for some being able to routinely pull off those kinds o things breaks the feel of the setting.  I'm not that fussed about it, one because it takes a significant investment in Move to be able to routinely do those sorts of hijinks (and as another poster earlier in the thread showed there's ways to create task specific builds that are just as broken and are far more reliable for similar amounts of XP).

I guess a comparison would be a game setting in Tolkien's Middle-Earth before the War of the Ring, and then introducing Elminster of Forgotten Realms, who does casual things with magic that would likely bake the noodle of all five of the Istari/Wizards.  Or dropping Thor into the midst of the Netflix Defenders' series, whose power is several magnitudes higher than anything the Heroes of ****'s Kitchen can dole out.

And two because I've already played "that character" in Saga Edition who became known amidst the players as the "Teenage Telekinetic Wrecking Ball" or "Starkiller sans wangst."  When the campaign end-game is turning Korriban into fine powder, dropping AT-ATs from the sky or yanking Star Destroyers out of orbit is kind of small potatoes.  Granted, with that particular campaign (Legacy Era, no Cade Skywalker), the group was on board with crazy shenanigans, especially since it benefited them and I was more than willing to step back and let other PCs have their time in the spotlight instead of hogging it 24/7 (exceptions made for high-ranking Sith Lords, especially Krayt).  And unless the player is on a serious power-trip, a character with that kind of raw power gets boring faster than most folks would think if all they are is just overwhelming power.

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Sure, Star Wars doesn't normally lend itself to that level of power, except when it does, like the afore mentioned Starkiller.   My only issue is when people try to say you can't, or shouldn't do this.   It's my table, and my players, if we want to play that level of power in our Star Wars campaign, nobody can stop us, nor should they.   I don't try and  convince anyone from playing a more reserved game, and honestly, I usually play reserved games myself.  But if my players came to me and said they wanted to play a high power level version of Star Wars, and specifically cite things like "That thing Starkiller did with the Star Destroyer", well that's fine with me.  It doesn't mean we will always play that level of adventure, but if we decide to, it doesn't harm anyone if we do.   

I mean, there are still tons of ways for a GM to curtail this level of power, other than the very mature and reasonable "Sure guys, you can do this kind of thing, but DBAD about it and try and solve every problem with a Star Destroyer mic drop ok?"   If your players are so immature that they can't work with you and agree to something that reasonable, well, then you've got a lot more issues to deal with at your table I bet.

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1 hour ago, KungFuFerret said:

But if my players came to me and said they wanted to play a high power level version of Star Wars, and specifically cite things like "That thing Starkiller did with the Star Destroyer", well that's fine with me.

This. It's not an issue of canon, nor an issue or rules, but an issue of awesome. "I want to play a character who can do this awesome thing...remember that one video game?" That is cool. That gets me going, "Okay, how can we accomplish this awesome thing you want to do?" 

Don't try to game the system; just play Star Wars, man. 

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