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4 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, it is relevant. regardless of what the silhouette 8 object may be. If you're trying to hit someone with it, it is an opposed roll, since it is a ranged attack. 

No it's not.  I'm not hurling it.  I'm dropping it.

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5 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

No it's not.  I'm not hurling it.  I'm dropping it.

It's still a ranged attack. Whether you're actively throwing it, or dropping it. You still have to aim and position it, and, you have to hit a (potentially) moving target with accuracy. It is an opposed check by RAW.  It still falls under the Hurl upgrade. Whether you're actively throwing it, or dropping it is purely narrative; the effect is the same. 

Edited by Tramp Graphics

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Few things here.  I never said I was attacking anyone, you all did.  I never said I was hurling something as an attack, you all did, and by the way the rule does make the distinction of mentioning the word hurling, so you're just wrong there.  I never said I was using it on a ship under power or an NPC, you all did.  You all are making counters to arguments I never made, which leads me to the conclusion you all have a distinct lack of attention to detail.

For the points invested, someone in a T-shirt and flip flops can walk into a motor pool and start destroying AT-ATs or whatever.  Move is OP.

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3 hours ago, 2P51 said:

No it's not.  FR3 can pick up sil 8 and drop it on whatever it wants reliably for 100xp in the power and 130ish in a tree.  It's broke.

No it can't. that is a impossible check requiring spendng a destiny point to attempt it and getting ALL white pips on your force roll and making a 3 red 2 purple check. People seem to leave out an awful lot of the important details.

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I'm not ignoring anything.  I think what there is a conflating of the Control upgrade to apply to all matters and applications involving Move.

A player does not need the Control upgrade to pick up an object.  They do not need the Control upgrade to 'move' the object to long range. They can let go of the object.  What happens in your world when they let go?  They don't have the Control upgrade so the object just floats there mid air?  If one of your PCs falls off a ledge, do they need to make a Ranged attack at your table to hit the ground?

Edited by 2P51

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14 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

I'm not ignoring anything.

A player does not need the Control upgrade to pick up an object.  They do not need the Control upgrade to 'move' the object to long range. They can let go of the object.  What happens in your world when they let go?  They don't have the Control upgrade so the object just floats there mid air?  If one of your PCs falls off a ledge, do they need to make a Ranged attack at your table to hit the ground?

Simple, if there are people and/or other specific targets there that the character is specifically targeting, he rolls a ranged attack to hit them, as opposed to the ground. Otherwise his targets get out of the way before being squashed. It is still a ranged attack by RAW.

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I never said I was targeting anyone, you did.

You all keep bringing up this Control upgrade and I never said a word about it once.

I pointed out for about 230 xp, a PC can walk into an area and just start wrecking objects and places by picking them up and dropping them because they can and there is no roll involved other than the FD for the pips.

Move is OP.

Edited by 2P51

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9 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

I never said I was targeting anyone, you did.

You all keep bringing up this Control upgrade and I never said a word about it once.

I pointed out for about 230 xp, a PC can walk into an area and just start wrecking objects and places by picking them up and dropping them because they can and there is no roll involved other than the FD for the pips.

Move is OP.

IF you're wrecking property, vehicles, people or whatever, you are still targeting something. Whether it is a person or object, you are still trying to hit something in order to inflict damage to that target. That requires a ranged attack. It doesn't matter if the target is mobile or immobile. If you are using Move to cause damage, you are making a ranged attack on something, and that requires a Discipline check against a specific set difficulty determined by the Silhouette of whatever you are using in order to accurately hit whatever it is you are trying to destroy. Now, if you were simply picking silhouette 8 object up, and simply moving it to then place it elsewhere without attempting to cause massive property damage or loss of life, then that certainly not require the Discipline check. However, there is nothing "Game breaking" about that. It's only using it for some offensive purposes that any potential problems could arise, and those are mitigated by the fact that doing so requires a Disciple check against a difficulty set by the silhouette of the object being used. 

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So what you are saying even though someone can pick up an object, and a very large one, and then they drop it, but they don't have the Control upgrade it suffers no damage when it plummets from several hundred meters in the air?  That's just dumb.

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1 hour ago, 2P51 said:

No it's not.  I'm not hurling it.  I'm dropping it.

Page 120: "Often, when summoning the Force in order to throw objects at people, influence the mental state of others, or otherwise affect individuals, a character may also need to succeed on a Discipline skill check." (emphasis mine)

Also, dropping objects onto people, in order to sidestep the range attack Control upgrade, is cheesy metagaming BS and it wouldn't fly in my games. You want to attack people with the power, you buy the ranged attack upgrade. The actual text of the upgrade says nothing about "hurling;" it covers all aspects of moving something with the intent of inflicting damage. 

If Force users don't have this upgrade, then their attempts to attack anyone will be easily dodged or mitigated in some other fashion.

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Just now, 2P51 said:

So what you are saying even though someone can pick up an object, and a very large one, and then they drop it, but they don't have the Control upgrade it suffers no damage when it plummets from several hundred meters in the air?  That's just dumb.

What kind of object are we talking about?

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1 minute ago, awayputurwpn said:

Then at that point it's all narrative. Where's the overpoweredness issue?

Disabling a BN of parked walkers is over powered.  Being able to pick up unoccupied starships and drop them all over a port and take it out of action is over powered.  Etc.  It simply requires imagination to see the utility and OP possibilities of being able to loft  these size objects and simply drop them.

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1 minute ago, 2P51 said:

I've stated myself clearly enough, I don't need to repeat anything.

You keep saying that you never said ship, but now you're saying ship. I don't get it. 

How is the player finding all these unoccupied ships or walkers? But yeah if they somehow found a bunch of unattended vehicles, I guess they could start disabling them one by one. It'd take awhile, and it might prove to be complicated if they're under guard or if the Empire can mount a defense in some way, but it's at least possible.

I'm not seeing a problem with it—if a player is able to do this with impunity and I as a GM don't like it, then I as a GM should have been better prepared, IMHO.

House rules are of course a valid approach. I just don't see the need for them.

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You all are conflating the Control upgrade to me there is no other way this power can be used to cause damage.  That is fiction.  

If I lift something to extreme range and drop it, I am not using the Force to inflict any damage at all with the Force.  Gravity and the object's mass are doing that.  There is no roll involved in the falling rules.

If the object happens to be sil 8 it's going to fall and crush a great deal of 'stuff' under it.  That's all doable with FR3.

Move is OP.

 

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If a character is destroying stuff willie nilly... well that is extrememly conflict worthy. Also using the force to cause damage falls under the hurl upgrade. Or at least that is how I would rule it. You don't get to sidestep conflict and the rules just because their are people involved. If you are trying to target stuff with the intent to do damage you need to follow the hurl rules.

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