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21 hours ago, Decorus said:

Because using the most exhausting form of Lightsaber combat would have zero effect on an Ancient being like Yoda right?

Also he doesn't look tired pulling the X-wing out of the swamp it actually looks like he is just calm collected and completely unaffected by what he is doing.

I think where most folks are getting the "Yoda looks tired after moving the X-Wing" is the bowed head and exhaled breath he lets out once the ship is on solid ground.  As you said, he's got a calm expression and isn't straining while he's floating the X-Wing, which is generally the polar opposite of concentrated effort/straining to accomplish a task.

Personally, I always took that moment not as Yoda being "tired" from exertion, but more frustration/resignation that he had to do something so blatant to finally break through Luke's inability to believe in just what the Force could accomplish if one's mind were truly open to the possibilities.

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Thats pretty much how I saw it, of course Yoda could have avoided this whole problem if he had Obi Wan bring him Luke when he was a baby...

Or if Obi Wan had the decency to actually try and teach Luke how to use the Force before he became a whiney teenager.

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1 minute ago, Decorus said:

Thats pretty much how I saw it, of course Yoda could have avoided this whole problem if he had Obi Wan bring him Luke when he was a baby...

Or if Obi Wan had the decency to actually try and teach Luke how to use the Force before he became a whiney teenager.

This was covered in other stories, Obiwan left him with his uncle owen and it was owen that blocked his training or from having anything to do with Ben Kenobi, it was mostly covered in the canon comics, and didnt go into much detail, but apparently Obiwan was supposed to be training him.

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Because Obi Wan totally can't go "You will let me teach the boy how to use the force"....

I know very dark sidish the whole mind ****** a poor moisture farmer to save the Galaxy.

Time has proven over and over again that Obi Wan is a terrible teacher not that Yoda has proven himself to be much better.

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11 hours ago, 2P51 said:

Oh gosh, another thread about Move's power level?  What a shock.  Good thing it doesn't get brought up by someone new every other month or it might actually be a sign of a poorly crafted OP rule or something.....

I don't think it is poorly crafted. It takes epic levels of XP to do the things people bring up as problems.  People never seem to consider how much XP it actually takes to do the things they worry about with any reliability. And in Combat you want to have a lot more reliability. Which I suspect is why we dont see a lot of tassing star ships at bad guys. It is more reliable to just hit them with a lightsaber.

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7 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

I don't think it is poorly crafted. It takes epic levels of XP to do the things people bring up as problems.  People never seem to consider how much XP it actually takes to do the things they worry about with any reliability. And in Combat you want to have a lot more reliability. Which I suspect is why we dont see a lot of tassing star ships at bad guys. It is more reliable to just hit them with a lightsaber.

I do, because it keeps getting brought up by players, over and over and over and over and over....I am simply acknowledging reality.

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Shrug its fine.

Reality is this:

For Move to be abused you need

1. A good chunk of the move tree

2. A high force rating 4 or 5 possibly even 6.

3. A High willpower 4 or 5

4. A high discipline in the 4 or 5 range.

5. A willingness to be a **** in game.

Even if you have someone who meets all those requirements with the just short 1k xp required for a decently rounded character. (Which I have) 90% of the BS they think they can do doesn't actually work well in the rules as written.

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Just now, 2P51 said:

I do, because it keeps getting brought up by players, over and over and over and over and over....I am simply acknowledging reality.

Sure it keeps getting brought up over and over. And when they do i say every time how much XP does it take to do that? Those complaining never know. they consider the crazy thing you could potentially do with out considering the xp cost of all the things needed to pull of the crazy stunt. like how much force rating does it take. How much discipline does it take. How much XP has to be dumped into the move tree to do it. I have never seen it be an issue because it takes an epic amount of xp to do it. and at that point one should probably expect to be able to do epic things. it also takes an epic amount of focus on being able to do just one thing. which in my experience makes for a not fun character as that focus takes away from your ability to make your self more effective. I mean think about at the XP levels required a non force user can get an ability that literally kills every minion and several rivals in a scene. That could be a couple hundred wound levels worth of damage. which is way more than the 80points of damage dropping a star destroyer would do. And less effort. **** with a vehicle you can do way more damage. So really i think the fear is way over blown.

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3 hours ago, syrath said:

This was covered in other stories, Obiwan left him with his uncle owen and it was owen that blocked his training or from having anything to do with Ben Kenobi, it was mostly covered in the canon comics, and didnt go into much detail, but apparently Obiwan was supposed to be training him.

I think it was in the RotS novelization, but Obi-Wan did suggest that he start training Luke from infancy, but that Yoda shot that idea down, citing how that approach had ultimately failed the Jedi Order, and that Obi-Wan was supposed to trust to the Force as to when he should begin Luke's training.

As for Owen, I agree that part of it was his fear of Luke winding up like his father, going off on "some **** fool idealistic crusade," except that I don't think Owen and Beru were ever told about what really happened to Anakin, as Kenobi himself didn't find out until some time later that Vader had survived, and that Owen instead believed that Anakin had gotten killed during the last days of the Clone Wars, thus leaving Luke an orphan with no father.  Does add a note of bitterness to Owen's outlook on Anakin's life, which I think is suitable for a "man of the soil" with simple aspirations out of his life.

There's probably nothing in the current canon to back any of that last paragraph up, but I think it's appropriate and gives more weight to Owen keeping Kenobi as far away as possible from Luke for as long as he could, in that rather fearing Luke might go evil, he was instead worried that Luke might wind up dead chasing adventure.

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2 hours ago, 2P51 said:

I do, because it keeps getting brought up by players, over and over and over and over and over....I am simply acknowledging reality.

I think at this point there's three constants that are going to show up repeatedly in new threads as being broken and/or overpowered.

1) Autofire
2) Move power
3) Starship combat (though this one seems to have died down of late)

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4 hours ago, 2P51 said:

I'm not debating, fyi.  I think it's broke and I do know exactly the xp involved.  The assertion that everyone doesn't know the xp involved is simply factually incorrect as I do and many have.

If you don't know how much XP it takes how do you know it is actually a problem. That is the thing the xp levels to do the crazy stuff is extremely high.

Edited by Daeglan

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2 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

I think it was in the RotS novelization, but Obi-Wan did suggest that he start training Luke from infancy, but that Yoda shot that idea down, citing how that approach had ultimately failed the Jedi Order, and that Obi-Wan was supposed to trust to the Force as to when he should begin Luke's training.

As for Owen, I agree that part of it was his fear of Luke winding up like his father, going off on "some **** fool idealistic crusade," except that I don't think Owen and Beru were ever told about what really happened to Anakin, as Kenobi himself didn't find out until some time later that Vader had survived, and that Owen instead believed that Anakin had gotten killed during the last days of the Clone Wars, thus leaving Luke an orphan with no father.  Does add a note of bitterness to Owen's outlook on Anakin's life, which I think is suitable for a "man of the soil" with simple aspirations out of his life.

There's probably nothing in the current canon to back any of that last paragraph up, but I think it's appropriate and gives more weight to Owen keeping Kenobi as far away as possible from Luke for as long as he could, in that rather fearing Luke might go evil, he was instead worried that Luke might wind up dead chasing adventure.

I think that it was in star wars vol 5 , the comic that relates Yoda's tale of travelling to a planet where there he felt " a calling" to travel too, in it it starts off with Luke in an x wing reading obi-wans journal and its an excerpt from that journal he mentions not training Luke fron an earlier age.

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Lets put it this way I have Move at the extreme end of the spectrum. I use it, but its nowhere near as bad as my Lightsaber dueling combination:

Premptive Avoidance, Draw Closer and Maxed out Force Leap or as I like to refer to it infinite kiting of suck.

:

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Here are some comparisons for the amount of XP required to get Move to the point thought about here, and what you can do if you chose another shtick. 

Fearsome: 460 XP across Aggressor, Warden, and Enforcer gets you 8 ranks of the Fearsome talent, as well as +2 FR along the way and a variety of other useful talents. Your reward for this expenditure is that foes must make an 8 difficulty fear check when they become engaged with the PC. Oh, and one of the talents picked up along the way is No Escape, which makes it so that 2 Threat on that fear check results in losing the adversary's free maneuver. An adversary with 5 Willpower and Discipline (an impressive feat) has a 68% chance of suffering from No Escape, and fails the check 54% of the time. 

Trading: For a meager 345 XP, we can get 7 ranks of Wheel and Deal and Master Merchant. For a sense of scale, that means that you can sell an item at 120% of its base value if you just get 1 success and spend 2 strain. That is before we even consider becoming great at the checks by buying up skills. If you can get to 1 success on Negotiation to haggle, you can get the price down to 70%. If you can get two successes, on your check to sell, you can make a profit without even spending strain! For added points, you can grab the remaining ranks of Know Somebody from Advisor and Modder for 9 total at 475 XP, still leaving 125 XP for Presence or Negotiation. With that many ranks of Know Somebody, finding a legal item is as easy for the trader as finding a glow rod for the average person. Let that sink in that the trader can find the rarest of items available through legal channels as easily as you would find Heinz 57 at your grocery store. For 600 XP, you can make a trader that on average with 4 difficulty can track down a Veridicator without even trying (once per session, admittedly), buy it for only 2600 cr, then turn around and sell it for 5800 cr.

Durable: For 470, you can get Durable 8 and Unstoppable, and 630 XP can get that to Durable 10 or you can pick up Aleena as a race and wear Reinforced Gauntlets. Or both to get to Durable 12. That last part is the really funny one, because it says that you need Vicious 3 or 3 extra activations of the critical just to have a chance at dealing a critical hit. Can we just appreciate that this would be the kind of PC that you can take a guillotine to and he has a very decent chance of the blade getting caught in his neck and not killing him. 

Solid Repairs: 275 XP and you can repair an extra 10 Hull for every repair, or 350 for 12. You can only make one attempt to repair the hull for an encounter, but this character can repair a tenth of some of the toughest ships. The character has focused on being awesome at repairing vehicles, and they are truly great at it. Just like with every character like this. It should be noted that a similar kind of thing can be done with stimpack Specialization, healing +7 wounds per stimpack. So instead of healing 5/4/3/2/1, you heal 12/11/10/9/8! Fine Tuning is another awesome thing for this, though you can only get six ranks. 

Speaks Binary/Droid Tech: Speaks Binary lets you give boost dice whenever you direct droids to do something. You don't even need to spend a maneuver or closely monitor the process, as the idea is the user can communicate to the droid at a core programming level. Well, for 320 XP you can get 8 ranks! 8 boost dice for that bodyguard droid, and for the astromech, and for the protocol droid. 

Lethal Blows: 425 XP for 10 ranks, +100 to the critical in total, with 2 ranks of True Aim.  Pick up weapons with lots of Vicious and you can insta-gib rivals and maybe even nemeses. Oh, and even ships, especially since your True Aim also works for Gunnery.

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18 hours ago, Decorus said:

Shrug its fine.

Reality is this:

For Move to be abused you need

1. A good chunk of the move tree

2. A high force rating 4 or 5 possibly even 6.

3. A High willpower 4 or 5

4. A high discipline in the 4 or 5 range.

5. A willingness to be a **** in game.

Even if you have someone who meets all those requirements with the just short 1k xp required for a decently rounded character. (Which I have) 90% of the BS they think they can do doesn't actually work well in the rules as written.

No it's not.  FR3 can pick up sil 8 and drop it on whatever it wants reliably for 100xp in the power and 130ish in a tree.  It's broke.

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12 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

No it's not.  FR3 can pick up sil 8 and drop it on whatever it wants reliably for 100xp in the power and 130ish in a tree.  It's broke.

I think the idea is that difficulty is based on silhouette (pg 298) and as it's over 5 (Impossible) needs a destiny point spend as per (optional?) rules on pg 27, so that destiny point cannot then be used to use the dark side (or light side) results on the force roll (pg 36).

All page references are F&D Core.

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I think it's fair to say at this point that you need to homebrew it at least a little bit.

The very fact that the discussion rears it's head so often is solid enough evidence of that. 

I personally apply strain appropriate to silhouette. 

Range bands nessecary if the item is outside of engaged or too big or solid for it to be balled up. 

The game is not perfect and as we often find out when they come on order 66 the rules do have some mistakes in them. 

Move - is- overpowered if you do not apply some sort of limitations to it because otherwise it's very realistic too easily possible throw around a star destroyer force unleashed style. 

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1 hour ago, 2P51 said:

That's to throw, not pick up and drop.  There is no Discipline roll to pick something up.  There is no Discipline roll to drop something.

That's just it though, IF you are targeting someone to hit them with said Silhouette 8 object, it is still a ranged attack, that is what the Discipline check is for. It doesn't matter if narratively you are throwing it or dropping it, you are still trying to hit someone, and this is what the disciple check represents. 

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My questions would be why the heck is the sil 8 vehicle not using its engines even part of this scene?

Why would you allow a force user to overpower engines that can go hundreds of km/hr?

 

The GM sets the scene and the rules, the book is at best a guideline. RAW it seems insane but applying logic to it, it's fine. Funny thing is, dropping that star destroyer does absolutely no damage to it, so it then just floats up and turns your force user into stardust.

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