Jump to content

Recommended Posts

5 hours ago, Ignithas said:

Seems like the most toxic and untrue comment I encountered in this thread and someone said that I basically should quit the game, because I poop in his cereals. I encountered 6 people that raised valid concernes in this thread and I highly doubt that everyone else likes the role mechanic, given that a lot of people don't visit this forum. The accuse that people are raging or are sourpusses is also strange.

Let me stop you right there...

"Sourpuss" is not intended as an insult. Would you prefer "grump"? I think it fits, I am surprised you don't.

"Raging against" was not intended as an insult. In my mind it means "opposing aggressively". I also find that to be pretty accurate.  If there is another connotation that I missed, I apologize.

My post was incredibly dismissive. That part was fully intended. The anger against role cards makes no sense, and the arguements being presented are bizarre since you can completely ignore them.

In the old game, if a sensei was printed as "crab only" that you really wanted to play on your scorpion deck, did that fill you with this much annoyance? This is literally the same thing, except the top players chose who can use it instead of the designers.

I have no idea how this is a problem for anyone.

Edited by Yogo Gohei

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Ignithas said:

Seems like the most toxic and untrue comment I encountered in this thread and someone said that I basically should quit the game, because I poop in his cereals.

Actually, I said play casual or don't buy. The only time these cards matter is in competition (so why are some complaining that the actual competitors get to pick?). Even then, it appears you don't have to use a role when competing. But now that is a problem apparently.

 

Honestly, I've been impressed by the amount of effort, thought and passion put into this game. The design has bean great.

The devs have way more play testing on this then us. I'm going to start a thread this weekend, but I have yet to see an actual discussion on the cards and how they effect each clan.

Maybe then we'll have a decent assessmentof role cards. Until then, I trust the designers who have done very well with this game so far.

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello. As a new player for the L5R card game, I have only two concerns about the FFG version. Game is too short, 4/5 turn is not engouh in my eyes and I wouldn't say no to more dynasty deck consistency. And the lack of choice for role card. I don't see why an event in US should limit my deckbuilding.

 

15 hours ago, Asako Taiyo said:

If you do not want some random player having an effect on your game/story, L5R may not be for you. 

This was very true for the old game. And it was one of the main reason, i didn't play it. I'm a fan of L5R RPG and many online card game, but the CCG never actracted me. In fact, when I read some lore, I thought some stories in the last century of Rokugan were so... stranges. I had the feeling they were here merely for an CCG event. For me, the new L5R card  game is more well-rounded. And I hope they'll not let player have an impact on the game balance.  I don't think the number one in that tournament will think : "Hum, X is the best choice for my clan, but my clan is already one of the strongest one. Let's pick Y to make things more interesting." or "Let's pick Z, it makes more sens lore wise."

With LCG, clan fidelity will be less a thing. Be carefull about game balance or you might play against the same two clan 70% of the time.

 

Honestly if I want to play a game were player's performance have an impact on the game, I would rather play the RPG. I didn't like the CCG, but I think L5R 4th edition is great.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Buhallin said:

I don't necessarily have a problem with it. It's the reality of the world, and I'm fine with that.

Where I take exception is the idea that those winners are somehow proven superior to every other person who plays this game, in a way which justifies them dictating to those other players how they can play the game. They're not superior, any more than any other pay-to-win scheme declared a "winner" to be superior. They haven't proven themselves against the best, they've just proven themselves against those who can afford the entry fee.

And again, it is what it is. But delusional wannabe-LARPing about how I'm supposed to follow orders from some "best" player who's only the best because they could afford to go is just insulting.

I don't recall FFG putting it like that but it seems something has really hit a nerve with you on this matter.  Try not to take it so personally.  

I'm really confused as to what lead you to this conclusion.  I didn't get that at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Yogo Gohei said:

Let me stop you right there...

"Sourpuss" is not intended as an insult. Would you prefer "grump"? I think it fits, I am surprised you don't.

"Raging against" was not intended as an insult. In my mind it means "opposing aggressively". I also find that to be pretty accurate.  If there is another connotation that I missed, I apologize.

My post was incredibly dismissive. That part was fully intended. The anger against role cards makes no sense, and the arguements being presented are bizarre since you can completely ignore them.

In the old game, if a sensei was printed as "crab only" that you really wanted to play on your scorpion deck, did that fill you with this much annoyance? This is literally the same thing, except the top players chose who can use it instead of the designers.

I have no idea how this is a problem for anyone.

Grump and sourpuss are both insults and you can't know this, because you don't know me. They actually don't fit at all, because I am actually very positive about the game.  The only thing I wrote is that I don't like the role system and when being asked I wrote my reasoning. The very fact that you blatantly misrepresented the situation (2 people instead of the 6 in the thread, insinuate that people with different opinions are agressive, which you even do in this reply), insulted people with a different opinion and be dismissive just to ridicule the arguments others have made is the very definition of toxic behaviour.

If you want to be competitive (and I certainly want to be), you can't ignore the role cards. The definition of being competitive is to build decks of which you think you have the highest chance of winning. And the role increase your chance of winning by a big margin, so nobody at a tournament will chose to not play it, making the decision to not play the role card void. I have alaborated in a post before why the design choices of the design team is different, than decisions from the community that change the balance.

Sometimes it would be nice if people listen to different opinions without assuming the worst. Then it is also easier to understand the arguments that people with different opinions have.

 

1 hour ago, Shu2jack said:

Actually, I said play casual or don't buy. The only time these cards matter is in competition (so why are some complaining that the actual competitors get to pick?). Even then, it appears you don't have to use a role when competing. But now that is a problem apparently.

 

Honestly, I've been impressed by the amount of effort, thought and passion put into this game. The design has bean great.

The devs have way more play testing on this then us. I'm going to start a thread this weekend, but I have yet to see an actual discussion on the cards and how they effect each clan.

Maybe then we'll have a decent assessmentof role cards. Until then, I trust the designers who have done very well with this game so far.

 

 

 

 

As far as I can tell every person here in this thread that made counter points are people that want to play in tournaments. As I (and other people before me) alaborated above, being competitive and not using your role card doesn't make any sense.

I can totally sign this "Honestly, I've been impressed by the amount of effort, thought and passion put into this game. The design has bean great."

Like I said before, the role cards aren't unbalanced, but the votes can lead to clans being better or worse, which will effect the competitive environment and can make clans being suboptimal for tournament use.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder if passions would be so intense if players picked a minor penalty for their clan instead of a minor benefit. 

Yes, I said minor benefit. This choice changes one or two cards in your deck and will probably net an extra fate or two every game. That works for your opponent, too, so it's -almost- a zero sum game. Essentially, it is my opinion that this will have little effect on the game or individual play style. But, since the sentiment is, "which justifies them dictating to those other players how they can play," we should look at that, since no one likes being shackled by those bourgeoisie elitists. Let's say your clan had to make this pick and you were not there. Let's say, despite the community consensus on the clan board and the cash prize incentives, Shiba Bob who lived an hour away from Worlds and had a good day has picked the Gatemaster of Crumpets. Now, you are stuck with that deckbuilding reality. There exist several cases.

Case 1: "I agree with the pick." Great. Lovely. Move along.

Case 2: "I agreed with the pick at the time, but some expansions came out and now I disagree." I'm guessing this will be the default state of every clan as a group. It does make people eager to go and do well at a tourney in order to get the change they want. Control the means of production!

Case 3: "*shrug*" I'm guessing this will be the default emotion of every player as an individual.

Case 4: "I disagreed with the pick at the time, but now I agree." Good?

Case 5: "I completely disagree with the pick and will take that feeling to the grave." Here's the thorny one. The minor benefits of the role card can simply be ignored during deckbuilding. All Roles provide a small, passive fate gain that doesn't require any deck changes. The issue is, if, somehow, there really is -actually and truly- a powerful advantage to picking one option over another and that wasn't picked. Now, you, the best player on the planet, (who skirts the income necessary to play an LCG but not to fly and compete on the world stage,) must endure the decision of this inferior individual for an entire tourney cycle. IMO, if a "bad choice" got past all of the boards and bounties and barriers, it sounds like your problem, and if you can't make it work, I'd revisit your self opinion.

 

On a final note, if you fancy yourself a "deckbuilder" and the Role concept challenges you, then this is an opportunity to grow. All challenges are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Ignithas said:

Grump and sourpuss are both insults and you can't know this, because you don't know me. They actually don't fit at all, because I am actually very positive about the game.  The only thing I wrote is that I don't like the role system and when being asked I wrote my reasoning. The very fact that you blatantly misrepresented the situation (2 people instead of the 6 in the thread, insinuate that people with different opinions are agressive, which you even do in this reply), insulted people with a different opinion and be dismissive just to ridicule the arguments others have made is the very definition of toxic behaviour.

If you want to be competitive (and I certainly want to be), you can't ignore the role cards. The definition of being competitive is to build decks of which you think you have the highest chance of winning. And the role increase your chance of winning by a big margin, so nobody at a tournament will chose to not play it, making the decision to not play the role card void. I have alaborated in a post before why the design choices of the design team is different, than decisions from the community that change the balance.

Sometimes it would be nice if people listen to different opinions without assuming the worst. Then it is also easier to understand the arguments that people with different opinions have.

 

As far as I can tell every person here in this thread that made counter points are people that want to play in tournaments.

Yes, but how much game experience do they have? Do  we know how it plays out?

 

Raising concern is one thing, but what results do we have to support it? Right now it is our theory vs the experience of the guys who designed and tested.

I would be more open if someone was to point out the worst roles for a clan and discuss how that plays out vs a clan with a very good role. Then compare that to if both clans have a good role. Maybe a test game(s) to highlight.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've only read "Phoenix wants Void (seeker?)" And "Crab wants Earth (keeper?)". Having not played a single game,  I have no informed opinion of it.  Phoenix always seemed to have the highest count of Void shugenja,  so Void seems a flavorful fit for them. Kaiu Sugimoto was the Keeper of Earth in Old5R, so flavor wise,  that seems right to me. 

I'd ask those with experience if those two roles would seem to create an unhealthy advantage for those two clans come day one...?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, HirumaShigure said:

I'd ask those with experience if those two roles would seem to create an unhealthy advantage for those two clans come day one...?

Seeker of Void let's phoenix play Shameful Display and their clan province in the same deck. Unhealthy advantage? No. But it would be very handy for them.

Seeker of Earth let's Crab play Entrenched Position and Ancestral Home in the same deck, which along with pilgramage will make cracking their provinces incredibly obnoxious. But it isn't a wildly huge advantage.

I would also claim that crane would really like Keeper of Air or Fire. Extra influence + mild discouragement for their opponent to attack using the rings they really want seems nice. But not busted.

Also of note, a clan cannot have the same role for two years in a row. So, even if something is a huge advantage, it will not last.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I see the roles like this:

You pick a Seeker role if you feel that there is an immediate boost to the clan that will net you a competitive advantage that is better than anything else the clan could receive until the next time the roles are selected.  The downside here is that while it may improve your clan's chances at success in the short term, if something comes along that provides a replacement which lessens the amount of the competitive advantage gained by your choice, the long terms gains have the potential to be diminshed.  It's more of a gamble.

The Keeper rolls are the 'safe' choice.  They open up the available deck building options while giving you more flexibility to adapt to the metagame, as it changes, between each role selection ceremony.  The trade off is that you sacrifice the potential to have that extra competitive advantage while it's still around.

The fate gains tied to each are reverse.  The Seeker role will almost always net you 2 extra fate over the course of the game.  The Keeper role could be more......or it could be zero.  This futher pushes the immediate gains that could be had by choosing a Seeker role.

While it may seem that some clan/role combos are head and shoulders above the rest, I think it's a little less cut and dry as to which choice is best.  Clearly clan/role combos have some advantages tied to them, however, without all the cards being revealed and no tournaments being won to determine which clans get what roles, it's very difficult for me to be concerned.  

Personally, I really like the blend of flavor and mechanics that roles, and how they are selected, being to the game. 

Edited by Ishi Tonu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would never pick no role.....but I am very curious as to what they plan on doing with the 3 spare roles that are not picked.

My clan could take Keeper of Farts and I'd still run it for that extra three influence.  If they took Seeker of Farts I'd at least test some decks with two fartty provinces to see if they were any good although they'd probably just stink.  Of course Scorpion might want this role since their farts are silent but deadly. :ph34r:

Edited by Ishi Tonu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

I would never pick no role.....but I am very curious as to what they plan on doing with the 3 spare roles that are not picked.

They did say that on L5R Live that they had "special" plans for the three unchosen roles; ronin maybe?  So if you pick a spare role you're actually representing none of the major clans?

Just to throw my hat into the ring on this whole conversation of "forced" role selection; some people will always be irked by someone else making a choice for them, and I totally understand.  Most of us enjoy the freedom of deckbuilding and having a choice forced on you by someone you have never met can be a little irritating.  That being said, I hope all those that feel that way can get by it, because the actual impact on competitive play is likely to be very small.  Saying "I lost because that dumb-dumb Ishi Tonu picked Keeper of Farts instead of Keeper of Burps" is not going to be able to be validated in any way, so we're just going to have to deal with it.  I for one will embrace my role as Keeper of Farts by squeezing the cheeks just that much tighter at a tournament.

That said, as a semi-competitive card game player (I finished 2nd in Netrunner Regionals in my area a few years back) who has a job where getting time off in the fall is essentially impossible, I have to resign myself to the fact that I will never be able to make any of these Role choices.  It does irk me a little that the choice of role is given to one person and opposed to say, all regional winners of that clan or Hatamoto votes.  Many people will be able to attend a Kotei and become Hatamoto, but very few will be able to attend Worlds.  That bothers me a bit.  Aren't exclusive prizes and the Shogun title enough to lure the most competitive people to Worlds?  I feel like we should all be able to influence the story in some way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Buhallin said:

I don't necessarily have a problem with it. It's the reality of the world, and I'm fine with that.

Where I take exception is the idea that those winners are somehow proven superior to every other person who plays this game, in a way which justifies them dictating to those other players how they can play the game. They're not superior, any more than any other pay-to-win scheme declared a "winner" to be superior. They haven't proven themselves against the best, they've just proven themselves against those who can afford the entry fee.

And again, it is what it is. But delusional wannabe-LARPing about how I'm supposed to follow orders from some "best" player who's only the best because they could afford to go is just insulting.

You know what's insulting? Calling your fellow players "delusional", "wannabes", "neckbeard". Probably there are more gems like this hidden there, but I skipped to the end when it got annoying in page 2 to see if it got useful again... only to find that this is still going on its 7th.

These are the rules of sanctioned play. They simply add options that 2-3 days ago we didn't have. If you had no problems with the game until then, it just makes no sense to have them now. These options are mutually exclusive; the method used to decide which option you get to use is meaningless. If you have a problem now, I'd stop and think if the problem is with these rules or if its actually something else.

Sanctioned play is an additional layer over the basic game. You can own and play the game with your friends and never participate in sanctioned play. But, it you do, you are accepting lots of additional strictures of which the roles are a just a part. If you don't want to to accept those, or you object things like other players shuffling your decks, touching your cards, or random people (like judges or the TO) bossing you around, telling you where to sit and what you can or cannot do. then I suggest that the best course for you is not participating in sanctioned play. Simple as that.

Otherwise, I further suggest that you accept you have made your point to the best of your ability and the rest of your fellow players simply don't share your concerns. 

Edited by Mon no Oni

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Casanunda said:

Saying "I lost because that dumb-dumb Ishi Tonu picked Keeper of Farts instead of Keeper of Burps" 

It's hard to know which way the wind will blow.  

My wife would say my role is Peeper of Butts.  I've held that role for far to long in her opinion. "Don't you ever get tired of looking at it?"...............no, no I do not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

It's hard to know which way the wind will blow.  

My wife would say my role is Peeper of Butts.  I've held that role for far to long in her opinion. "Don't you ever get tired of looking at it?"...............no, no I do not.

And thus the taint consumes you...  Sadly, there is no Peeper of Butts role yet but people expect if they do release it that it will be a 1v2+ boss mode rather than a standard playable faction.

Edited by shosuko

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

****, people got the wrong idea about these cards I reckon. Folks a tripping. Tournament play in this game is going to feature clans and those clans will have a subtle but constantly changing power running behind them, and that's just a core part of the game. Is what it is. I'm looking forward to it.

People are taking this super personal. And it's weird.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Shu2jack said:

And who knows, maybe players have the option of picking the roles other clans didn't pick. 5 options (Clan role, 3 unchosen, pick no role)

This seems like a pretty crazy theory,  however by stating it you have reminded me that they implied on L5RLive that there is some kind of purpose for the unused role cards. What that could possibly mean, only time will tell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ide Yoshiya said:

This seems like a pretty crazy theory,  however by stating it you have reminded me that they implied on L5RLive that there is some kind of purpose for the unused role cards. What that could possibly mean, only time will tell.

They mention it briefly on the role cards page on the OP site as well, specifically stating their purpose will be revealed sometime after Gen Con and the Kiku Matsuri. So whatever that purpose is, they definitely don't want it spoiled before the first role cards are selected for this year's worlds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Casanunda said:

Just to throw my hat into the ring on this whole conversation of "forced" role selection; some people will always be irked by someone else making a choice for them, and I totally understand.  Most of us enjoy the freedom of deckbuilding and having a choice forced on you by someone you have never met can be a little irritating.  That being said, I hope all those that feel that way can get by it, because the actual impact on competitive play is likely to be very small.  Saying "I lost because that dumb-dumb Ishi Tonu picked Keeper of Farts instead of Keeper of Burps" is not going to be able to be validated in any way, so we're just going to have to deal with it.  I for one will embrace my role as Keeper of Farts by squeezing the cheeks just that much tighter at a tournament.

I think the impact of the roles will be larger than you expect, but that remains to be seen.  My problem is not "My clan picked a dumb role".  Quite the opposite.  I think what we're going to get are the most obvious min-maxed bog-standard meta reinforcement possible.  The problem for me is that I don't like that - I want to actually be creative with my decks, win or lose.  I never netdeck, and I often play counter to the meta.  That's always hard - I'm always playing at a handicap in the first place.  Now there are even bigger handicaps, because not only do I take an even greater penalty for not conforming to the meta, but I can't even take an advantage that might allow me to be more creative.

I also don't have any faith in FFG's ability to maintain game balance, and this is going to make it worse.  If roles were open, then players could use them to adapt to poor balance decisions.  But if something comes out that (for example) makes doubling up province types even more powerful, half the clans can't respond to that, and those clans will become even worse as a result.  That's hypothetical, but I do have faith in FFG to screw it up - probably sooner rather than later.  Once they do, the restrictive nature of roles will make it worse.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

I don't recall FFG putting it like that but it seems something has really hit a nerve with you on this matter.  Try not to take it so personally.  

I'm really confused as to what lead you to this conclusion.  I didn't get that at all.

FFG did not, but several people in this thread have stated it in exactly these terms, which is who I was responding to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Buhallin said:

Now there are even bigger handicaps, because not only do I take an even greater penalty for not conforming to the meta, but I can't even take an advantage that might allow me to be more creative.

I don't mean for this to sound dismissive - But I am truthfully at a loss for how 3 extra influence/the opportunity to double up on a province type if you want to (+ free fate) doesn't give a player more freedom in deck building. 

Thats the actual mechanic: they are reducing limitations on your deck. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...