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Aren't the Worlds invitation only? Its not like it is going to be random people showing up for the Tourney, unless I read the article wrong - which I very much could have.  Also it is free to go to Worlds if you win a Grand Kotei.

"Top performers earn a personal invitation to the Winter Court—the World Championship—and Grand Kotei champions win travel and accommodations!"

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6 minutes ago, Danwarr said:

I mentioned that already. What if there are only 10 or so Crab players there? 10 people competing for the potential to shape deck construction for an entire year doesn't strike you as a somewhat odd choice?

I'm certainly willing to give the system a chance and I'm quite eager to see how the whole thing plays out because it is so different, but I think for some people the idea that a person making a choice in November 2017 means you can't use certain cards in a June 2018 event is going to be bit confusing especially to new players who maybe are just getting into a LCG.

Additionally, with the Initiate cards they've previewed, FFG has already shown they are going to design cards around having access to the Roles. It doesn't seem unlikely to me that a Clan will get access to a certain Role card that could potentially lead to some imbalance or maybe a Clan will not have access to something that might be really helpful for them. The whole thing is just very experimental, I think, and certainly not without flaws.

1) If there are only 10 Crab players, and the best of them finishes at 107th place... odds are they aren't making much of a choice.  The last 2 clans are only going to have 4-5 role options left and none may be optimal.

2) The roles don't change deck building that much.  We're talking about doubling up on 1 province element or +3 influence.  I don't think that is going to wreck the game balance that much...  Sure, you may need to face Shameful Display and Kuroi Mori, but do you really think you couldn't win the game because of that?

Do we know what the role character cards are yet?  Pls link if you do, I haven't seen them yet.  I still think the role system is going to be a much smaller influence of power than people are fearing.  The system is new, but its also toned down.  As the card pool expands we may find the initial role cards chosen by each clan is no longer optimal either...

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6 minutes ago, Isawa Kioshi said:

Disagreeing doesn't make Buhallin wrong, however. 

Literally the only reason I cannot go to Worlds is because I cannot afford it. How I would place at the tournament, were I to go, is irrelevant. I don't get to (potentially) make decisions for my clan because I don't have the money. This isn't an opinion to be disagreed with.

The decision is minor, and literally created as a flavor for the game to reflect the representation each clan receives.  If you aren't representing your clan, then you don't get to play that game - you can also just do whatever you want in casual matches.

The players who are picking are likely knowledgeable about the meta and card pool, and possibly even have information about not-yet-released cards.  I would think they would be in a great position to make a decision for the clan.

The biggest thing to consider here is that this isn't a deck building option.  Its just part of the clan.  You don't choose what is on your stronghold, the game designers do.  Are you going to complain about that?  You don't choose which role card you use in sanctioned events, the top representing players of your clan do, why complain about it?

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4 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Then what does it matter?  If the ring roles are clearly defined then the clans should naturally gravitate to one or two rings and Phoenix choosing Seeker of the Void wouldn't matter to Crab for example if they are tied to.......I dunno let's say earth.

Honestly I don't even know what you're point is any more?  Not trying to be snippy, I've seriously lost track with all the flip flop.  Please recap your point.

It matters to Crab, because the metagame shifts with the increase and decrease of the power of the clans. In a healthy metagame the decks have matchups that are better than others. If Phoenix becomes stronger, because they can play Shameful Desplay, it makes their metagameshare and also the metagameshare of its predator(s) bigger. The worst case scenario is, that Seeker of the Void breaks Phoenix, which leads to Phoenix not having a predator (happened in WH40k Conquest with Kith before the Planetfall cycle). Then there could be the situation we had with Lannister in AGOT lcg that the deck has a predator, but the predator loses against the rest of the field, which also leads to an extremly unbalanced metagame. If you want to make shure that this doesn't happen, you need to design the cards with the strongest role in mind. If a faction like Phoenix, which gets/loses a lot of power from the role choice gets a bad role for their playstyle, their powerlevel within the metagame will decrease, which will effect Crab for the better or the worse. From a design standpoint there are three ways to restore the balance: 1. Give the clans that are weaker now stronger cards to compensate for it. 2. Restrict or ban cards from clans that are stronger now. 3. Give them cards that are suited for the new playstyle.

1. is probably the worst decision, because the design of the next set is already done and so the cards would probably enter the cardpool in ~7 months. Furthermore it is dangerous, because when the roles switch, you can easily have an overpowered clan.

2. is probably the best choice, but you essentially punish the clan champions for having made a good decision

3. The issues of the 1 point still remains, but the powerspike after the role switch wouldn't be as high.

Most likely they will only do 2 if the metagame goes completely out of control, but they would accept clans falling out of favor competitivly. And this is my concern.

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28 minutes ago, Danwarr said:

It runs counter to the narrative that only top players are making Role decisions. Going to FFG Worlds has more to do with being able to buy a ticket and having time off than anything else. This isn't the MTG Pro Tour or something. 

Sorry but I can't imagine active putting up the money to go to worlds, make through the gauntlet of good players that will be there and somehow emege as a top of clan players with any regularity.

As with anyting there will be some outliers, but, it will not be the norm and this set up from FFG is no more or less conducive to that than anything in the mtg pro tour.

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1 minute ago, shosuko said:

The decision is minor, and literally created as a flavor for the game to reflect the representation each clan receives.  If you aren't representing your clan, then you don't get to play that game - you can also just do whatever you want in casual matches.

The players who are picking are likely knowledgeable about the meta and card pool, and possibly even have information about not-yet-released cards.  I would think they would be in a great position to make a decision for the clan.

The biggest thing to consider here is that this isn't a deck building option.  Its just part of the clan.  You don't choose what is on your stronghold, the game designers do.  Are you going to complain about that?  You don't choose which role card you use in sanctioned events, the top representing players of your clan do, why complain about it?

I wasn't leveraging an opinion about the role cards one way or another. I actually really like them.

My point was to back up Buhallin's, in that the biggest difference between people who make decisions for the clans and those that do not isn't player skill, it's money. 

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Just now, shosuko said:

The decision is minor, and literally created as a flavor for the game to reflect the representation each clan receives.  If you aren't representing your clan, then you don't get to play that game - you can also just do whatever you want in casual matches.

The players who are picking are likely knowledgeable about the meta and card pool, and possibly even have information about not-yet-released cards.  I would think they would be in a great position to make a decision for the clan.

The biggest thing to consider here is that this isn't a deck building option.  Its just part of the clan.  You don't choose what is on your stronghold, the game designers do.  Are you going to complain about that?  You don't choose which role card you use in sanctioned events, the top representing players of your clan do, why complain about it?

Being able to play Shameful Desplay and Kuroi Mori isn't minor. The difference between card designer designing cards and pro's chosing a role is that it's extremly hard for a designer to design their cards around powershifts, that they don't have control over, while it is much more easy to design around cards you have designed previously.

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16 minutes ago, Isawa Kioshi said:

Disagreeing doesn't make Buhallin wrong, however. 

Literally the only reason I cannot go to Worlds is because I cannot afford it. How I would place at the tournament, were I to go, is irrelevant. I don't get to (potentially) make decisions for my clan because I don't have the money. This isn't an opinion to be disagreed with.

I've never argued right or wrong.I can't go due to money either, but, I'm ok with letting the person who places top of their clan pick the role. Some are not and this we agree to disagree.

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3 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Sorry but I can't imagine active putting up the money to go to worlds, make through the gauntlet of good players that will be there and somehow emege as a top of clan players with any regularity.

As with anyting there will be some outliers, but, it will not be the norm and this set up from FFG is no more or less conducive to that than anything in the mtg pro tour.

I also don't think that one person will be able to do this regular, but one time is enough to create an unbalanced metagame.

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1 minute ago, Ishi Tonu said:

I've never argued right or wrong.I can't go due to money either, but, I'm ok with letting the person who places top of their clan pick the role. Some are not and this we agree to disagree.

Ahh, gotcha. I think I misunderstood what you were disagreeing about. My bad :(

Edited by Isawa Kioshi

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12 minutes ago, Isawa Kioshi said:

I wasn't leveraging an opinion about the role cards one way or another. I actually really like them.

My point was to back up Buhallin's, in that the biggest difference between people who make decisions for the clans and those that do not isn't player skill, it's money. 

But as I said back to Buhallin - The investment of time and money is a big part of what gives you the skill as a player.  If you were to pick up the best players from each store and drop them in a room with the top players from each clan from World's, I would imagine those players - who have invested more time and money into the honing their skills at the game - would emerge as the victors more often then the people who play just once a week against the same dozen players, who may not even have experience against all of the clans, let alone each clan's options...

The point from Buhallin is that Skill is not represented when you require money.  The counter point is that without money, that skill may not be as great as one might imagine...

11 minutes ago, Ignithas said:

Being able to play Shameful Desplay and Kuroi Mori isn't minor. The difference between card designer designing cards and pro's chosing a role is that it's extremly hard for a designer to design their cards around powershifts, that they don't have control over, while it is much more easy to design around cards you have designed previously.

While the role cards can be powerful, there are 5 keeper and 5 seeker roles and only 7 clans, and they don't all want the same thing.  If the Phoenix pick Seeker of Void to play 2 Void provinces, the Crab can pick Seeker of Earth to play 2 Earth ones, which is equally powerful for them.  There is no #1 best role for every clan so naturally several clans will get their optimal pick.

The Seeker roles are more powerful in their ability to provide 2 provinces of the same element, but they are also limited to only producing 2 fate per game...  The Keeper roles help with splashes and can produce more fate per game.  I think everyone assumes the Seeker ones are better, and that may be true - but when I consider Lion with 3 reprieve and 3 levy I think that is pretty strong...

Edited by shosuko

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1 minute ago, shosuko said:

But as I said back to Buhallin - The investment of time and money is a big part of what gives you the skill as a player.  If you were to pick up the best players from each store and drop them in a room with the top players from each clan from World's, I would imagine those players - who have invested more time and money into the honing their skills at the game - would emerge as the victors.

The point from Buhallin is that Skill is not represented when you require money.  The counter point is that without money, that skill may not be as great as one might imagine...

While the role cards can be powerful, there are 5 keeper and 5 seeker roles and only 7 clans, and they don't all want the same thing.  If the Phoenix pick Seeker of Void to play 2 Void provinces, the Crab can pick Seeker of Earth to play 2 Earth ones, which is equally powerful for them.  There is no #1 best role for every clan so naturally several clans will get their optimal pick.

The Seeker roles are more powerful in their ability to provide 2 provinces of the same element, but they are also limited to only producing 2 fate per game...  The Keeper roles help with splashes and can produce more fate per game.  I think everyone assumes the Seeker ones are better, and that may be true - but when I consider Lion with 3 reprieve and 3 levy I think that is pretty strong...

I don't think that the Seeker Role is better for every clan. But in my opinion Shameful Display is by far the strongest neutral province in the game and Kuroi Mori (debatably) the best clan province. So putting Shameful Display under your stronghold and Kuroi Mori and Elemental Fury under your provinces is in my opinion superior from the powerlevel than anything the other clans can field (yet).

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Three thoughts.

First, the genius of this set up is its execution.  This role selection thing is not in the core rules, but simply in the Organized Play pdf.  So, if FFG sees that it had unintended consequences, they can just scrap it and move on.  No big deal.  In addition, this is only for Organized Play.  No one is forcing you to play this way casually, or even in your FLGS.  This is only in play for events supported by FFG kits.

Second, while it may seem like a big deal to get two provinces of the same element right now when there are only 17 total (have we even seen all 17?), more provinces will be printed.  While two void provinces may be optimal for a clan today, two earth may be better in six months.

Third, one of L5R's biggest draws is that the players have can affect the game on a level that is unseen in other games.  While the selection of roles is not earth-shattering, it is a dip into what draws many to L5R.  If you do not want some random player having an effect on your game/story, L5R may not be for you.  And that is okay!

I am cautious about this, but I am leaving my final verdict aside until I can get some games under my belt with this system.

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1 hour ago, shosuko said:

1) If there are only 10 Crab players, and the best of them finishes at 107th place... odds are they aren't making much of a choice.  The last 2 clans are only going to have 4-5 role options left and none may be optimal.

2) The roles don't change deck building that much.  We're talking about doubling up on 1 province element or +3 influence.  I don't think that is going to wreck the game balance that much...  Sure, you may need to face Shameful Display and Kuroi Mori, but do you really think you couldn't win the game because of that?

Do we know what the role character cards are yet?  Pls link if you do, I haven't seen them yet.  I still think the role system is going to be a much smaller influence of power than people are fearing.  The system is new, but its also toned down.  As the card pool expands we may find the initial role cards chosen by each clan is no longer optimal either...

1. I would hope the Role draft goes in reverse order so Clans that are obviously weaker get the first pick of a potential strong role for their clan.

2. From my own and other's current experience with Kuroi Mori, it really can make a decent difference. Not being required to play a Fire Province is a fairly sizable boost. Giving Phoenix another way to Honor their characters can make the difference between breaking a Province or losing a Conflict entirely. The Role that is personally most interesting to me is Seeker of Earth because it gives access to Ancestral Lands and Entrenched Position. Having to face one of these is somewhat annoying, but the match-up to match-up versatility is what strikes me the most. Typically, a Clan that is weaker in one area, like Lion are with Pol, will typically just pick Ancestral Lands. But, if they also have access to Entrenched Position, they can swap what they put on their Stronghold based on who they are playing. Game against Crane? Ancestral Lands. Unicorn this time? Entrenched Position. Again, these are minor changes, but minor changes can make a big difference over the course of a game or a tournament.

 

As far as the the Dynasty characters for the Roles go, the only one we know any text from is the Seeker Initiate which is something along the lines of:

Quote

Seeker Initiate

2 fate, 1 military, 1 political,

Monk
Seeker role only.
Reaction: After you claim a ring that matches the element of your role – search the top 5 cards of your conflict deck for a card and add it to your hand. Shuffle.

 

We haven't see the text for the Keeper Initiate for any official spoilers, but I've seen a few rumors.

Quote

As the card pool expands we may find the initial role cards chosen by each clan is no longer optimal either...

I think this is a fair criticism of the system. There is no flexibility to change in a given year once that choice is made. Additionally, because of the inability to test other roles within a given Clan at official events, the only real way to tell is something is wrong is probably going be lack of results for a given Clan as opposed to winning deck-lists with various Clan/Role combinations.

Edited by Danwarr

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28 minutes ago, Asako Taiyo said:

First, the genius of this set up is its execution.  This role selection thing is not in the core rules, but simply in the Organized Play pdf.

Role cards are mentioned numerous times in the Rule Reference, Learn-to-Player document, and the Rulebook. They seem pretty core the design of the game.

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2 minutes ago, Danwarr said:

Role cards are mentioned numerous times in the Rule Reference, Learn-to-Player document, and the Rulebook. They seem pretty core the design of the game.

........

Yes, of course they are in the Core Rules, as they are in the Core Set...

 

However, this particular selection method, the thing that has been taking up most of this thread, that top of clan at worlds selects the role for each clan in Organized Play, is only in the OP rules.  These can be changed at will.  So again, the actual selection of role cards for the clans at worlds is not set in stone.

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4 minutes ago, Asako Taiyo said:

 So again, the actual selection of role cards for the clans at worlds is not set in stone.

I mean it sort of is? We know it's tied to player participation and whatever the Emperor's Sanction list is. Obviously this is open to change, but you could say that about any rule I suppose.

Roles1.JPG

Roles2.JPG

Edited by Danwarr

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2 minutes ago, Danwarr said:

I mean it sort of is? We know it's tied to player participation and whatever the Emperor's Sanction list is.

Roles1.JPG

Roles2.JPG

Do the Core Set Rules include what the Emperor's Sanction list is or how it is determined?  That's my point, FFG can change what the Emperor's Sanction list is, and how it is established at any time.

Edited by Asako Taiyo

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8 minutes ago, Asako Taiyo said:

Do the Core Set Rules include what the Emperor's Sanction list is or how it is determined?

The Role definition of the Rule's Reference is actually the first and only mention anywhere of the Emperor's Sanction list. That personally sounds to me a bit like the MWL from Netrunner, or maybe even a full Ban list but we don't know for sure. However, we do know the Emperor's Sanction list is at least a concept that exists internally at FFG and they know what they want it to be and what its intended use is for.

Edited by Danwarr

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The Rules Reference isn't even the core set, interestingly enough, so FFG can edit it whenever they want too. Note how on page 3 of the L2P guide they link the reader to an online Rules Reference.

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1 hour ago, Ignithas said:

It matters to Crab, because the metagame shifts with the increase and decrease of the power of the clans. In a healthy metagame the decks have matchups that are better than others. If Phoenix becomes stronger, because they can play Shameful Desplay, it makes their metagameshare and also the metagameshare of its predator(s) bigger. The worst case scenario is, that Seeker of the Void breaks Phoenix, which leads to Phoenix not having a predator (happened in WH40k Conquest with Kith before the Planetfall cycle). Then there could be the situation we had with Lannister in AGOT lcg that the deck has a predator, but the predator loses against the rest of the field, which also leads to an extremly unbalanced metagame. If you want to make shure that this doesn't happen, you need to design the cards with the strongest role in mind. If a faction like Phoenix, which gets/loses a lot of power from the role choice gets a bad role for their playstyle, their powerlevel within the metagame will decrease, which will effect Crab for the better or the worse. From a design standpoint there are three ways to restore the balance: 1. Give the clans that are weaker now stronger cards to compensate for it. 2. Restrict or ban cards from clans that are stronger now. 3. Give them cards that are suited for the new playstyle.

1. is probably the worst decision, because the design of the next set is already done and so the cards would probably enter the cardpool in ~7 months. Furthermore it is dangerous, because when the roles switch, you can easily have an overpowered clan.

2. is probably the best choice, but you essentially punish the clan champions for having made a good decision

3. The issues of the 1 point still remains, but the powerspike after the role switch wouldn't be as high.

Most likely they will only do 2 if the metagame goes completely out of control, but they would accept clans falling out of favor competitivly. And this is my concern.

And that is why I'm having a hard time understanding why you think allowing everyone to pick their own role would remedy this.

Allowing players to pick their role means that Phoenix players are still going to be able to pick Seeker of Void and there are no clan/plot combos that prevent this.  Winning ahead of Phoenix and hating out their selection is the only way to stop it but even that isn't really a great idea as I'll explain later.

I understand the argument of allowing players access to everything to give them the best chance to combat a strong archtype but as the card pool grows between each championship the choice may no longer matter.  In some ways this makes all the keeper roles more viable since they are just increasing the amount of influence and thus the potential access to new cards that get released after the roles are selected. Seeker is clearly more specific to what's good at that moment.

If a couple packs into the season a fire province that is equally as good as Shameful Display pops up and renders the selection of Seeker of the Void less effective then the players will have to live with it.

While I get that the idea of certain card combinations are scary when you've seen previous games get ruined by that sort of thing in the past, I wouldn't get too worked up about it 4 months before the roles are even decided and the first real metagame is established.

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I'm excited for role cards, but I fully expect after the honeymoon phase with the new mechanic the community at large is gonna express more and more "coulda shoulda woulda" resentment.

I think what's important right now is to not make any judgements about the mechanic before we see how it actually impacts the competitive metagame.

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To be honest, I think this is kind of what makes the choice of role card so cool.  Like, the game hasn't even released yet and we're all worked up over someone that may or may not choose the role we like, and which may or may not have a significant effect.  

The idea that player decisions within the game can cause this much of a reaction, and carry this much weight is part of what makes L5R so cool!  A game driven by player interaction - BOOM, here we go! 

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Hey guys. I played at Worlds for AGOT last year.

There were 5 Tyrell players total and I placed was the top-placing Tyrell in 49th place. But that is somewhat misleading, I was 1 win from making top 16 with my Opponant match-win ratio.

Even the top of the "weakest" faction can still place pretty highly. I was 5-3 and played against some top decks. You don't get the top of faction by sheer luck.

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17 minutes ago, YasukiKaito said:

To be honest, I think this is kind of what makes the choice of role card so cool.  Like, the game hasn't even released yet and we're all worked up over someone that may or may not choose the role we like, and which may or may not have a significant effect.  

The idea that player decisions within the game can cause this much of a reaction, and carry this much weight is part of what makes L5R so cool!  A game driven by player interaction - BOOM, here we go! 

Exactly - We've chatted about this in different topics about how FFG could keep player interaction and control evident without having the story team or design team go crazy corrupting every faction in turn...  The suggestion I liked was the idea of creating different posts that would allow several clans to fill out - like Shogun, Left Chancellor, ect.  I think these role cards do exactly what I was wanting.  We can have these won and lost and traded over time - a constant reminder when you build your deck that "this is the role your clan has" and "this is the role you'll face with that clan."  The way they've designed it is just great - not only in the balance and availability of roles (I suspect most clans will get their "optimal" choice or at least a close second even without going to hate-drafting) but also in the fluidity of it.  The power of each role card could change with each card expansion, and the Role cards themselves can easily change and evolve each time they are reset - who knows if we'll use these exact same role cards for next Worlds really?

Giving the players the title of Hatamoto and Shogun is a great touch too.  I just hope those players are active in the online community, not just their local community.

Edited by shosuko

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