Jump to content
eagletsi111

Should Autothrusters give you a chance to avoid bombs?

Recommended Posts

5 minutes ago, Cerve said:

I don't think that bombs are a problem. As always, is the combination of some rules that still a problem...in this case, Bombs+AdvSlam.

 

Is that what kills Ace, not just bombs in my opinion. I fight this combo and yes, it is broken. It cut off a lot of choices (low hp aces) because you can't do nearly nothing against it: the ship just move, move again, drop the bomb and good bye.

Yes you can swarm, you can try to block the path of the bomber with other ships, but still too edgy as strategy, and you can't do it always (expecially in the mid-late game, where of course Miranda is stronger..). 

To me that's a problem. I hope that the fix for Advanced Slam will coming soon, because it simply cut off a lot of choices in matter of ships and listbuilding. And that's bad for the game.

 

 

Without it, Aces still capable to simply dodge the bombs, or to avoid the dangerous zone of an high ps bomber. So it's fine for theme.

That is fair. If the rumored FAQ Leak is true, then i don't think a mod like what's described would be necessary. If the leak proves false, then a solution like this might still be worth looking into.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I fly bombs exclusively at the moment, and I can tell you from experience that good ace players knows how to evade the bombs as much as possible.
Of course I get bombs off on them, but I have to pay some blood to get them in (And no, a full set of clusters on an interceptor is not always a deathsentence... sadly....).
Your orignal idea is of course ludicrous, giving an already fantastic upgrade another ability. What would stop interceptors from being the terror of our dreams again? 

While people has discussed above how FFG do not design upgrades that is a hard counter, consider the auto-thrusters: 
It is thought as a counter to turrets, but ALSO works at range 3. I don't think you can come up with a similar concept for a bomb-upgrade, unless it might do something to asteroids? But that would also be crazy. 
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Retro-Thrusters (2pts)

Modification

Once per round when an enemy bomb detonates, and you are with range 1 of that bomb. You may roll a single evade dice. Reduce the damage by 1 for each evade result. You may spend focus and evade tokens to modify/add  to the result.  

You can only equip this card if you have the barrel roll action  

----

If you have an evade token you get 2 evaded damaged, you have focus and roll focus you can use that to get an evade.

This won't make bombs garbage and won't punish bombing lists. but at some time gives you a chance for "action" aces. This gives bombs a new function as token strippers.

I prefer new cards that fix the issue and force list building choices.

Edited by the1hodgy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, SabineKey said:

And with Sabine and Cad Bane still around, they should still be. The defensive reroll for bombs would likely have limited to no modification by design. That still gives bombs the advantage, but at least gives ships like the Interceptor a chance.

And like I said before, if this kind of thing happens, it shouldn't be added to Autothrusters. Those are already well worth the points.

I think the better approach would be to allow Autothrusters to cancel Sabine and Cads effects. Because Bombs vs Aces in general are fine and Sabine Wren and Cad bane elevate those bombs to be useful against other ships as well, something which certainly is good, because to narrow tools are not useful in X-Wing because of the still good squad variety. 

That said, yes please for adding boost to TIE Advanced. They really would need that. :)



Retro Thrusters are a cool idea as well, even when they are physically  just autothrusters on manual control and with that said, I would let them cancel all bomb damage at the cost of an evade token.  ;-)
Outside of interceptors no one would play them anyway, because they are a super specific counter with no use outside of a bomb matchup. And btw, what is up with that A-Wing hate? Only when you have barrel roll, really? 

Edited by SEApocalypse

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

And btw, what is up with that A-Wing hate? Only when you have barrel roll, really? 

Must have been a Freudian slip :P only so many times a man can be snap shot'ed at before it becomes instinct. how about;

Retro-Thrusters (2pts)

Modification

Once per round when an you would take damage from a none primary or secondary weapon. You may roll a single evade dice. Reduce the damage by 1 for each evade result. You may spend focus and evade tokens to modify/add  to the result.  

You can only equip this card if you have the barrel roll or boost action on your action bar.

You may equip one additional modification at 2pts or fewer.   

-----

No A-Wing Hate. and less situational. 

Edited by the1hodgy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No. Bombs are supposed to hard-counter aces. If you have a problem with your Ace-only squadron when you face a rival with bombs, then do not bring an ace-only squadron.

Bringing a mono-thematic squadron maximizes its strengths but also maximizes its weaknesses. For far too long some mono-thematic squadrons have been good against everything. It was time that it ended.
If you want to play a mono-thematic squadron, prepare to get really good at managing your hard counters, instead of begging at the designers to soften them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Azrapse said:

No. Bombs are supposed to hard-counter aces. If you have a problem with your Ace-only squadron when you face a rival with bombs, then do not bring an ace-only squadron.

Bringing a mono-thematic squadron maximizes its strengths but also maximizes its weaknesses. For far too long some mono-thematic squadrons have been good against everything. It was time that it ended.
If you want to play a mono-thematic squadron, prepare to get really good at managing your hard counters, instead of begging at the designers to soften them.

Sounds good. 
Sounds not realistic. 

Begging the designers for nerfs seems to work just fine. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, ModernPenguin said:

I fly bombs exclusively at the moment, and I can tell you from experience that good ace players knows how to evade the bombs as much as possible.
Of course I get bombs off on them, but I have to pay some blood to get them in (And no, a full set of clusters on an interceptor is not always a deathsentence... sadly....).
Your orignal idea is of course ludicrous, giving an already fantastic upgrade another ability. What would stop interceptors from being the terror of our dreams again? 
 

But at the same time, I have it from several friends who are good Imperial Ace players saying that SLAMing K-wings are that big of a death sentence for their aces. They have also experimented with bombers and still hold firm to their conclusion. Heck, strengthened in some cases. 

I personally would rather face off against aces than bombers on flavor alone, plus general experience fighting them.

 

6 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

I think the better approach would be to allow Autothrusters to cancel Sabine and Cads effects. Because Bombs vs Aces in general are fine and Sabine Wren and Cad bane elevate those bombs to be useful against other ships as well, something which certainly is good, because to narrow tools are not useful in X-Wing because of the still good squad variety. 

That said, yes please for adding boost to TIE Advanced. They really would need that. :)

I'm still worried that that idea for autothrusters is putting too much use out of one card. It's already awesome. 

Edited by SabineKey

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

I'm still worried that that idea for autothrusters is putting too much use out of one card. It's already awesome. 

In many ways autothrusters are a defining piece of equipment for interceptors. Which is the issue that Vader got none. I would assume in an X-Wing 2.0 we would see ship classes and autothrusters would be a baseline ability for all interceptors from the Advanced V1 over the A-Wing to the TIE Interceptor itself. No point in giving this to other types of ships. Similar I would assume that different forms of Adaptive Ailerons would be the prefered way to handle the extra mobility of interceptors instead of making them rely on PTL for reposition.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, ViscerothSWG said:

I don't like this idea, but would accept it if the owner of the bomb could spend TL and Focus and any other abilities (Jonus) to modify bomb results. 

That is what Cad Bane and Sabine Wren already allow to do. Modify Bomb Results. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, BadMotivator said:

I like this idea. Bombs should be more effective vs large and slow ships while agile ships should find them easier to avoid.

Arguably, the advantage bombs should have is that they can catch an evasive target in the blast radius, therefore negating some of their agility advantage. Torpedoes should have the role of being effective against large and slow targets.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Koing907 said:

Imperials need their CB/SW. I've thought a Bomb Technician, who lets the ship spend it's focus token on bombs that roll dice to convert focus results to hits.

Needs to be a bombing title usable by multiple imperial ships. Or let it be equippable in either  crew/missile/torp slot. Tie shuttle steals the bomb slot (which seems an oversight in design).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, eagletsi111 said:

Could FFG add the following to Bomb Rules.   Ships with Autothrusters roll 1 green die for each bomb token they hit or overlap, on an evade result they ignore the bomb damage completely and the bomb is removed from the game without triggering any effects period. 

This would IMO bring balance back to the game and help FFG sell more Star Vipers?   Bring aces out of hiding!   and make the game about flying again instead of auto damage abilities.

 

Really good idea. The ships that need autothruster are also generally the ones that struggle with bombs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Too hard to implement without either being arbitrary (FFG choosing which ships get to avoid bombs and which ones don't) or making bombs pointless (again).

Also, how exactly do you dodge an explosion? Mines are triggered by proximity, not actual contact, and bombs are on a timer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

In many ways autothrusters are a defining piece of equipment for interceptors. Which is the issue that Vader got none. I would assume in an X-Wing 2.0 we would see ship classes and autothrusters would be a baseline ability for all interceptors from the Advanced V1 over the A-Wing to the TIE Interceptor itself. No point in giving this to other types of ships. Similar I would assume that different forms of Adaptive Ailerons would be the prefered way to handle the extra mobility of interceptors instead of making them rely on PTL for reposition.

Yeah, the poor Advanced got left out in the cold as far as ships go. And that's a shame cause it's got some awesome pilots beyond Vader.

 

4 hours ago, Koing907 said:

Arguably, the advantage bombs should have is that they can catch an evasive target in the blast radius, therefore negating some of their agility advantage. Torpedoes should have the role of being effective against large and slow targets.

Yeah, but equally arguably, the ability to drop a bomb on a fast little ship in a bomber is less a capability of bombers in general and more the perfected skill of a high level pilot/crew.

 

4 hours ago, Koing907 said:

Imperials need their CB/SW. I've thought a Bomb Technician, who lets the ship spend it's focus token on bombs that roll dice to convert focus results to hits.

 

4 hours ago, ViscerothSWG said:

Needs to be a bombing title usable by multiple imperial ships. Or let it be equippable in either  crew/missile/torp slot. Tie shuttle steals the bomb slot (which seems an oversight in design).

Yeah, with how the TIE BOmber and Punisher worked out, it makes more sense for it to be a mod or something like that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Yeah, the poor Advanced got left out in the cold as far as ships go. And that's a shame cause it's got some awesome pilots beyond Vader.

 

Yeah, but equally arguably, the ability to drop a bomb on a fast little ship in a bomber is less a capability of bombers in general and more the perfected skill of a high level pilot/crew.

Well, that's how it is in game

Just replace pilot/crew with "player"

Going by ep 2, it's just a question of predicting more or less where the enemy will end up and BAAAWWWMMMMBBB

and then obi wan counter playing by running the **** away instead of jousting 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Well, that's how it is in game

Just replace pilot/crew with "player"

Going by ep 2, it's just a question of predicting more or less where the enemy will end up and BAAAWWWMMMMBBB

and then obi wan counter playing by running the **** away instead of jousting 

 

Yes and no. The episode 2 example still isn't dropping a bomb right on someone's head. In game play terms, it was laid in the path and maneuvered around. 

Considering we are attempting to represent a three dimensional battle on a two dimensional mat. There is more space for a ship to avoid a bomb while bombs have a limited drop pattern of back and/or down. 

Hence why I am not referring to the "player", but the pilot. A single pilot with the ability to drop bombs as precisely as an Advanced SLAM K-Wing sounds more like a pilot ability rather than something any ordinary Warden Squadron pilot should be able to do with reasonable regularity. 

I'm basing this conclusion on Star Wars media, where you don't see bombs (or bombers) used regularly for dog fights. And real life where bombers generally have fighter escorts, not depending on the bombers use there payload to "bomb" the enemy planes out of the sky.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

quite literally the only reason im against this is Autothrustors is already auto-include on capable ships, and the main complaint is they cant take any other mod 90% of the time since its so vital.
Adding this perk to autos would make that goto 100%. And make Fenn even more an issue, the "only ace in the game"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/3/2017 at 7:15 PM, eagletsi111 said:

Could FFG add the following to Bomb Rules.   Ships with Autothrusters roll 1 green die for each bomb token they hit or overlap, on an evade result they ignore the bomb damage completely and the bomb is removed from the game without triggering any effects period. 

 

 

This would IMO bring balance back to the game and help FFG sell more Star Vipers?   Bring aces out of hiding!   and make the game about flying again instead of auto damage abilities.

 

 

No.

Autothrusters allows the game to represent a target moving to erratically for you to be able to effectively lead at long range. Even laser bolts have to go from A to B and if B isn't where you thought it was... you miss. The thing with explosions is, they don't care what they hit and in a vacuum would (and have been shown to) expand spherically. Autothrusters don't allow you to fly faster, so you can't escape the explosion shockwave. Someone is now likely to come up with something like "well if they explode spherically (or radially from any point in all directions), why doesn't being behind a rock save you from the blast...." Because it's a game kids.. that we can play in an hour or so. If realistic space combat is more your thing, try Attack Vector: Tactical. Where controlling 1 ship is about as much as you can manage, because physics is a *****..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Rinehart said:

I swear interceptor players won't stop until interceptors are immune to damage.  Ships have to take damage guys or the game breaks hard.

There is a difference between immune to damage and having a fighting chance against things that can literally ignore most of what you paid a third of your list for. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

There is a difference between immune to damage and having a fighting chance against things that can literally ignore most of what you paid a third of your list for. 

 

You are ignoring how many other things that they DOMINATE?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...