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Thornoo1

Are heroes a trap?

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For the most part heroes, when tooled up, cost between 40-50 pts. I've been running either embedded Maro or solo Ardus.

I played my first game tonight without a hero (about my 10th game) and I found that the additional unit was  more effective than a hero.  I know that heroes can bring cool army buffs but I find them a little squishy.  So are they a trap?

Here's my sample list without a hero:

Reanimate Archers x2 Combat Ingenuity
Reanimate Archers x2 Combat Ingenuity
Reanimates x6, Champion: Deathcaller, Heraldry: Blighted Vexillum Bearer
Carrion Lancers x1
Carrion Lancers x1
Carrion Lancers x6 Equipment: Wind Rune,Training: Moment of Inspiration

Anyone else trying lists without heroes?

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I made some similar experience, as I ran a 200 points list without the undead heros. I didn't missed them.

For my understanding they are expensive for their output, especially the undead heros.

For human side I have to test, if it is better to go with or without some heros.

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Heroes have great manoeuvrability and early activations that units of similar cost do not have. They are versatile and strategically useful even if, as you point out, they may not be as tactically valuable as an equivalent unit

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It's a definite maybe. Ardus in particular seems pretty expensive for what he brings to the table, and I suspect they overcosted his "host of crows" army building ability by a few points. Maro as a support piece works better as a figure upgrade, but solo he does bring some really powerful damage to the table, admittedly at quite a high cost. Heroes are also one of the few ways to get artifacts on the table, so if there's one you want then they're an option.

Daqan fares better in my mind. Kari is on the fragile side, but she's great at range and great at melee, and can very reasonably expect to recoup her points. Hawthorne's individual output is worse, but reconfiguring trays is QUITE strong, giving out inspiration tokens can be really useful, and in the thorns build he can go toe-to-toe with some pretty serious targets.

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Ardus will get better or more economic with age. Both Host of Crows and his melee attack ability will continue to be useful as new units and upgrades come into play. Basically he may often see times where he gets better because of something else released. 

The same is margainally true for Kari's Amyhelin Allies. Better Latari in the future makes for more versatility in using this ability.

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45 minutes ago, TallGiraffe said:

With Kari I can take some Darnati with a frontline rune golem.

You really like that build, don't you? ;) I've just noticed you mention it a couple times. It's fun to see others getting really excited about upcoming content.

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One could test the worth of heroes by playing a 100 pt game on a small map with 2 heroes on one side and standard units on the other side. Who would win?

I have to agree with Bhelliom and Hawkman2000. The real worth of heroes is their support value for the main army. Host of Crows is a very strong ability. A build without a hero is nevertheless a valid one and the outcome of tourneys will show who's right. I do question the value of 2 Heroes in a 200 pt Army though. 

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9 minutes ago, Chaoticus said:

One could test the worth of heroes by playing a 100 pt game on a small map with 2 heroes on one side and standard units on the other side. Who would win?

I have to agree with Bhelliom and Hawkman2000. The real worth of heroes is their support value for the main army. Host of Crows is a very strong ability. A build without a hero is nevertheless a valid one and the outcome of tourneys will show who's right. I do question the value of 2 Heroes in a 200 pt Army though. 

I mean that isn't really how heros are tested.  I don't think that 100 point test would be very helpful.

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As I have gotten ever closer to finishing up the painting side of this game the game has been hitting the table a lot more over the past few weekends. At times I have been underwhelmed by hero performance but have also seen them be really effective depending on the scenario ... maneuverability and initiative really help them snag key positions and/or objectives. But like others have mentioned, their combat efficiency, against large units especially, doesn't seem to be all that great (definitely not like Monster/Heroes in Middle Earth SBG but I'm okay with this) ... although some well-timed and accurate strikes can be helpful in taking out tough upgrades, especially if you can flank an already engaged unit. 

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44 minutes ago, Hellfire33 said:

As I have gotten ever closer to finishing up the painting side of this game the game has been hitting the table a lot more over the past few weekends. At times I have been underwhelmed by hero performance but have also seen them be really effective depending on the scenario ... maneuverability and initiative really help them snag key positions and/or objectives. But like others have mentioned, their combat efficiency, against large units especially, doesn't seem to be all that great (definitely not like Monster/Heroes in Middle Earth SBG but I'm okay with this) ... although some well-timed and accurate strikes can be helpful in taking out tough upgrades, especially if you can flank an already engaged unit. 

This sounds to me like they are really well balanced. My experience is the same. The value of the Heroes depends on how they are used, so you have to be smart about how and when to engage to get the most out of them. I think armies with and without heroes will both be valid tactics, and we're going to see them vying for the wins at top tables. I also think that whichever one wins out at the first top tournament will set the trend for the next year or so. Which is sad to me because I think there are a lot of completely valid army building options.

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1 hour ago, rowdyoctopus said:

I mean that isn't really how heros are tested.  I don't think that 100 point test would be very helpful.

This way, you test the raw damage/durability and mobility of heroes against standard troops worth a similar amount of points. For sure, this is only one aspect of the heroes (+ their gear and special abilities). Abilities which support your army or allow you to reconfigure or add upgrades are of course not considered.

The real test is of course to have a number of games with and without a hero (neither side has a hero, both, only one) and write down the results. I find this to be a very interesting question. Requires a great number of games to answer though.

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I am starting to question Ardus' host of crows ability though.  My sample list in the initial post was more than functional without the need to boost to the next level unit size. 

With the additional points freed up I've got two large units and 4 utility units. Having two  redirectors and two dedicated blight batteries was great. All of the heavy lifting was done by the 3x2 Carrion Lancers, yet I was able to tie down a block of spearmen with my reanimates whilst deathcalling knights.

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7 hours ago, Budgernaut said:

You really like that build, don't you? ;) I've just noticed you mention it a couple times. It's fun to see others getting really excited about upcoming content.

What can I say? It has a lot of damage potential. Add citadel weapon master in and moment of inspiration and throwing 5 dice take out the worse.

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8 minutes ago, TallGiraffe said:

What can I say? It has a lot of damage potential. Add citadel weapon master in and moment of inspiration and throwing 5 dice take out the worse.

I'm likely jaded over mirror matches, but Kari has a nasty habbit of eating figure upgrades before they get to do work with Fortunas dice. 

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6 minutes ago, Darthain said:

I'm likely jaded over mirror matches, but Kari has a nasty habbit of eating figure upgrades before they get to do work with Fortunas dice. 

True but by the time they come out we will have 4 factions. 

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18 minutes ago, Darthain said:

I'm likely jaded over mirror matches, but Kari has a nasty habbit of eating figure upgrades before they get to do work with Fortunas dice. 

Oh, it's not just mirror matches. I LOVE the way the figure upgrades look, but they don't last long because of stupid Kari. I've given up on Figure upgrades for the next little bit, until I can figure out how to get rid of her early on.

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2 hours ago, Parakitor said:

Oh, it's not just mirror matches. I LOVE the way the figure upgrades look, but they don't last long because of stupid Kari. I've given up on Figure upgrades for the next little bit, until I can figure out how to get rid of her early on.

Say hello to my little friend Deathcaller. 

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Reanimate block with support lancer, deathcaller, simultaneous orders: 48 with Ardus' ability, 63 without. I also like the drummer that lets them disengage without panic so I can shift one away and then hit the combo, but that does make them even more expensive. Runegolems and hero's do not like that. With Ardus in there I can easily run two of those blocks, and still have a good bit of room. And then use Ardus and his extra defense to block for them. 

Also, Kari with heartseeker, when used right, is easily worth her points.

If you just throw them in to have heroes they are not great, but if you have a plan...

Edited by TallTonyB

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On 8/2/2017 at 1:47 PM, Chaoticus said:

One could test the worth of heroes by playing a 100 pt game on a small map with 2 heroes on one side and standard units on the other side. Who would win?

I have to agree with Bhelliom and Hawkman2000. The real worth of heroes is their support value for the main army. Host of Crows is a very strong ability. A build without a hero is nevertheless a valid one and the outcome of tourneys will show who's right. I do question the value of 2 Heroes in a 200 pt Army though. 

4x1 deepwood archers with kari and hawthorn. 

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For me heroes are another tool in the toolbox. And while the toolbox is a little bare (Really not that many units available) there's a role for ever unit.

And I noticed this in Armada. With the core box and wave 1 some units were less used, and with later waves units were back in. So I figure the same thing with Runewars.

For example Ankaur ability to take units, with the additional factions it really opens up your options. So it's not a trap, you have to learn to use them effectively.

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