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MajorJuggler

New record for squad jousting value (Fair Ship Rebels 2.0), and a peek at MathWing 3.0

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2 hours ago, MajorJuggler said:

 

To use a golf analogy, it's like we're discussing how to best land the ball directly on the green from the tee on a Par 3, and what we need to do to go from sticking it +/-30 feet from the hole, to +/- 10 feet from the hole. Then meanwhile FFG takes a swing and not only misses the green and the fairway, but they shank it wide left and end up 50 yards into the woods.

To be fair to FFG they're expecting most players (kitchen table) to turn up with just a 7 iron for a game of pitch and put; not a targeting computer, night vision scope and a laser range finder. 

However, I am starting to wonder if Pilot packs (60 cards?) of pilot 'abilities' could be released maybe annually (?) for high level competitive play. Some attributes obviously couldn't be changed (dials, PS etc) but the 'written' ability text could be, as could ship cost.

Such packs might even be 'themed' allowing TOs to stipulate what flavour of competition was going to be played. The question would be is if the consumer would balk at the additional cost of such packs. 

 

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You make me want to use my brain again.....well....maybe not.  But it does remind me searching for a mathematical representation of the scattering effects of an etching silicon with an electron microscope  in near vacuum.  Doesn't have to be perfect but give a good answer.

Thanks for all your work.  I will have to say, after experience that I absolutely hate flying against that list (usually against a Rey and Draw their Fire on Lowhrick).  Worst NPE ever.

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I have to wonder - could Thane be a decent alternative to Jess? He's got a bit more hull for DTF, and his free actions with Biggs around can improve the synergy even more:

Thane Kyrell (30)
ARC-170 (26), R2-D6 (1), Jyn Erso (2), Alliance Overhaul (0), Draw Their Fire (1)

Lowhhrick (30)
Auzituck Gunship (28), Selflessness (1), Wookiee Commandos (1)

Captain Rex (14)

Biggs Darklighter (26)
X-Wing (25), R4-D6 (1), Integrated Astromech (0)

Totalling 100 pts.

Essentially, Biggs gets a further 3 or so focus tokens for defense/offense each round. Thane still has the focus+TL 3 die attack of Jess, but with added Jyn flexibity for the quad.

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25 minutes ago, Astech said:

I have to wonder - could Thane be a decent alternative to Jess? He's got a bit more hull for DTF, and his free actions with Biggs around can improve the synergy even more:

Thane Kyrell (30)
ARC-170 (26), R2-D6 (1), Jyn Erso (2), Alliance Overhaul (0), Draw Their Fire (1)

Lowhhrick (30)
Auzituck Gunship (28), Selflessness (1), Wookiee Commandos (1)

Captain Rex (14)

Biggs Darklighter (26)
X-Wing (25), R4-D6 (1), Integrated Astromech (0)

Totalling 100 pts.

Essentially, Biggs gets a further 3 or so focus tokens for defense/offense each round. Thane still has the focus+TL 3 die attack of Jess, but with added Jyn flexibity for the quad.

This is the list I ran at the last SC I went to. I'm wondering why Thane fell out of favor for Jess. I didn't punch as hard as I could have with the list, as I was still getting used to it, but it's fairly common to get a focused TL attack from Biggs and Thane, and add that on top of the damage mitigation schtick of the list.

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5 hours ago, Tam Palso said:

To be fair to FFG they're expecting most players (kitchen table) to turn up with just a 7 iron for a game of pitch and put; not a targeting computer, night vision scope and a laser range finder. 

However, I am starting to wonder if Pilot packs (60 cards?) of pilot 'abilities' could be released maybe annually (?) for high level competitive play. Some attributes obviously couldn't be changed (dials, PS etc) but the 'written' ability text could be, as could ship cost.

Such packs might even be 'themed' allowing TOs to stipulate what flavour of competition was going to be played. The question would be is if the consumer would balk at the additional cost of such packs. 

 

This is almost precisely what I've argued for as an X-wing 2.0 feature. You'd also add a little version number in a corner of the card somewhere, and explicitly note that updated versions replaced older ones, while older examples of the card were to be treated as the newest one available.

Tie in a rule that 'if anything is newest, everything must be as new as possible' (ie, no cherrypicking), and you've got a best-of-both-worlds solution, with even errata and clarifications being available through reprints, and standard ship cards remaining usable in the meantime.

The real question is whether or not it's likely, of course... and I'm not holding my breath. Though the increasingly aggressive FAQs are making me wonder; the designers are clearly recognizing that the whole thing is getting wobbly, at least.

Edited by Reiver

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6 minutes ago, Reiver said:

This is almost precisely what I've argued for as an X-wing 2.0 feature. You'd also add a little version number in a corner of the card somewhere, and explicitly note that updated versions replaced older ones, while older examples of the card were to be treated as the newest one available.

Tie in a rule that 'if anything is newest, everything must be as new as possible' (ie, no cherrypicking), and you've got a best-of-both-worlds solution, with even errata and clarifications being available through reprints, and standard ship cards remaining usable in the meantime.

The real question is whether or not it's likely, of course... and I'm not holding my breath. Though the increasingly aggressive FAQs are making me wonder; the designers are clearly recognizing that the whole thing is getting wobbly, at least.

I couldn't see a complete reprint of all pilot cards being more than $30 American, most likely around $25. If that's the price of constant, accurate errata and newer, exciting abilities for our favourite characters then I'm all for it.

The FAQs are like a cloth over a bullet wound. Maybe it helps, but the problem isn't solved. There simply isn't enough granularity in X-wing to avoid power creep in new ships.

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6 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Aye

but

um

pew? pew?

Between you and MJ I feel like a moron. . .

Big words are an obstacle to clear, concise speech - but it does help that one does have the internet at the fingertips to look up words. Eschew obfuscation in all dialectical dialogues, colleagues!

Parsing @Hawkstrike's point in clearer language is fun, though:

"Maths don't do a good job of predicting most games because they're very random; wargames don't lend themselves to the idea of put in a problem, get a perfect solution to that problem. Math like this can HELP a player, but blind trust will wreck that player's day. Sometimes you've gotta shoot at Dengar head on."

 

I personally don't think this list is a flash in the pan, but it's only a threat against arcdodgers in the hands of someone who can outpredict you EVERY time. It's got limited repositioning, a fairly tight leash, and is stuck at a max PS of 5. 

But man, is it good at jousting.

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5 hours ago, Astech said:

I have to wonder - could Thane be a decent alternative to Jess? He's got a bit more hull for DTF, and his free actions with Biggs around can improve the synergy even more:

I think Thane can be a good choice because of his rear arc, but since Jess has a native R1 boost to attack and defense (plus effectively 7 hull behind 2 greens vs 9 hull behind 1 green), she's still probably the better choice both initially and then later in the game as the formation breaks up. If Thane gets isolated -- or target locked for ordnance -- he's going down faster than Jess.

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7 hours ago, Astech said:

I have to wonder - could Thane be a decent alternative to Jess? He's got a bit more hull for DTF, and his free actions with Biggs around can improve the synergy even more:

Thane Kyrell (30)
ARC-170 (26), R2-D6 (1), Jyn Erso (2), Alliance Overhaul (0), Draw Their Fire (1)

Lowhhrick (30)
Auzituck Gunship (28), Selflessness (1), Wookiee Commandos (1)

Captain Rex (14)

Biggs Darklighter (26)
X-Wing (25), R4-D6 (1), Integrated Astromech (0)

Totalling 100 pts.

Essentially, Biggs gets a further 3 or so focus tokens for defense/offense each round. Thane still has the focus+TL 3 die attack of Jess, but with added Jyn flexibity for the quad.

I think that's another version that is out there and I think also did well, if not won, a store champ.

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6 hours ago, Astech said:

I couldn't see a complete reprint of all pilot cards being more than $30 American, most likely around $25. If that's the price of constant, accurate errata and newer, exciting abilities for our favourite characters then I'm all for it.

The FAQs are like a cloth over a bullet wound. Maybe it helps, but the problem isn't solved. There simply isn't enough granularity in X-wing to avoid power creep in new ships.

Don't count on it being that cheap, nor that thoroughly updated.

This is why I'd vote for versioning, so that future updates remain viable even with peicemeal updates - a reprint of the decloak errata coming with the Phantom being clearly denoted, for example - would help considerably, even if it's not even a brazen rebalance.

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Fascinating. The first time that an obvious peak of the mountain top list really appeals to me (being introduced to X-Wing through the 2012 finals and all that). Lets just hope the next FAQ gives Biggs an entirely different ability, otherwise I don't think this can be fixed...

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If it gets too common you could start playing the Ship Deleter(Ghost with accuracy corrector and autoblaster turret). I would despise playing against you, but it would do work against this sort of thing.

 

Edit: im sorry! This was meant for a different thread!

Edited by codegnave

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I love the idea of a full blown revamp by you guys

The game doesn't need a 2.0 if we just do it ourselves.

Edit( I don't think it needs a 2.0 at all personally,I just really like the idea of people taking what's there and hot rodding it)

 

Edited by Velvetelvis

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21 hours ago, MajorJuggler said:

And now, if you will excuse me, I will return to working on my House Rules to balance the entire game for a "Community X-wing Mod" that sozin and I are spearheading. Not coincidentally, I have changed Biggs' ability:

Once per round, the first ship that declares an attack against another friendly ship at Range 1 of you and could have targeted you instead, receives a stress token.

I'm not saying Biggs' ability isn't powerful, or that it doesn't need some addressing at some level, but **** that is the most watered down, weakest change I've seen proposed for it. Ever. Oh no, I get a stress token but I kill your best ship in a single shot with my tricked out OP scum and now your squad can't even compete? Why not just ban the x-wing from competitive tournament play, because that's what's being proposed here. 

Seriously, I do not understand how people hate on the one and only good ship the game is named for when we have issues like Scurgg Genius and Dengar double shot running rampant.

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6 minutes ago, Boris_the_Dwarf said:

I'm not saying Biggs' ability isn't powerful, or that it doesn't need some addressing at some level, but **** that is the most watered down, weakest change I've seen proposed for it. Ever. Oh no, I get a stress token but I kill your best ship in a single shot with my tricked out OP scum and now your squad can't even compete? Why not just ban the x-wing from competitive tournament play, because that's what's being proposed here. 

Seriously, I do not understand how people hate on the one and only good ship the game is named for when we have issues like Scurgg Genius and Dengar double shot running rampant.

It kind of depends on what other ships can do, don't you think? It doesn't look like a fix for the existing game.

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Just now, Verlaine said:

It kind of depends on what other ships can do, don't you think? It doesn't look like a fix for the existing game.

True. At this point, I don't think they can do anything short of a complete rewrite on the x-wing to make it viable. I'm not on the inside track so my ideas probably won't go far, but taking an escort title from armada and giving it  to all x-wings is the best I've come up with. That or some sort of counter attack. Otherwise, we are talking about doubling shields and/or hull just to bring them into the 1.5 era (which I what I call the current game).

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1 minute ago, Boris_the_Dwarf said:

True. At this point, I don't think they can do anything short of a complete rewrite on the x-wing to make it viable. I'm not on the inside track so my ideas probably won't go far, but taking an escort title from armada and giving it  to all x-wings is the best I've come up with. That or some sort of counter attack. Otherwise, we are talking about doubling shields and/or hull just to bring them into the 1.5 era (which I what I call the current game).

Which is pretty much what MJ's new system does, if I understand it correctly. It:

1) Leaves the core mechanic of plot maneuver, resolve maneuver in ascending Pilot Skill order, resolve firing in descending Pilot Skill order untouched.

2) Changes the base point value of a game to 200, rather than 100

3) Has two different costs for each upgrade based on the 'tier' of the pilot - better pilots pay a higher price for upgrades

4) Changes the points cost of the ship itself - for example, a Rookie Pilot in his system is 35 points, or the equivalent of 17.5 in 1.0 X-Wing.

I do think his Biggs nerf goes a bit far too and he's letting his personal feelings about the OP-ness color the core idea; the notion of a control piece that directs enemy fire at itself isn't THAT bad, it's just that the universal clause - as well as the price point - makes it necessary in 1.0 because the ships have to be designed to account for it.

Making it more along the lines of the HoAtC fix (once per round you can force an enemy which COULD target Biggs TO target Biggs instead of another ship at R1) would be a reasonable fix, even if it makes him the most expensive X-Wing. And I play exclusively Imperials (too poor to spend that much money on X-Wing), so no dog in that fight for me.

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26 minutes ago, Boris_the_Dwarf said:

Oh no, I get a stress token but I kill your best ship in a single shot with my tricked out OP scum and now your squad can't even compete?

You realize that change would prevent the big, bad Dengar and other current Expertise carriers from killing your best ship in a single shot? Also, a typical mindlinked Fenn Rau would be double stressed, actionless (except a gifted Focus) and then killed the following turn. PtL Aces would hate life. Thankfully, MJ's change is only once per round.

There is a reason why Rebel Captive is effective and worth 3pts and a crew slot.

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