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Playtesting, Leaks, Outrage, and the #HumbleBrag

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6 hours ago, LordBlades said:

This is the one that bothers me the most in the aftermath of these leaks...there seems to be an 'underground' network of people 'in the know'.

The lizard people...

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One thing to note is that ships getting nerfed through FAQ and the play testing around it has not happened that many times, and the last ones have just been poorly timed around big tournaments (Worlds and NA Nationals). And any leaking is likely because one tester's friend says "I want to play list X at big event Y", and the tester says "I feel bad for you wasting your time, so I'll let you in on this...but don't tell anyone else!"

This is obviously a new thing for FFG X Wing testing to take a handle on. Products and what not, I don't think Ive ever heard a leaked product or specific card. Testers must understand the NDA part of that one. But the FAQ update NDAs seem to be different, because "personal feelings cloud their judgement."

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1 hour ago, Stoneface said:

Are they that obvious? Right now we have the luxury of hindsight. It's difficult to separate what we know now from what we didn't know back then. I'm sure that some evil genius would come up with triple scouts but I'm not sure it was that obvious.

Again, this is an assumption that the playtesters actually saw and playtested the final cards. This is not always the case. 

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Also to note, defining something as "too good for this game" is not as easy as "I think this combo is broken" or even "100 people think this combo is broken".

I honestly didn't think Deadeye Scouts were a PROBLEM for a LONG time. I spent 4 months trying to beat them, went like 40/60 against them with all my favorite list archetypes, looked at my past, THEN finally jumped on the wagon that it was way more difficult to beat this combo over every other combo in the game. If you're into the competitive scene deeply, you have to have this mentality otherwise you end up crying more than trying to win.

Same with Palpatine. It took a lot of play and practice (and repeated data over multiple metas) to really say that "oh wow, lists without Palpatine are clearly not able to contend and Im in favor for a change."

SAME with Attani, which was deemed bad for sooooo long.

Dengaroo, got that one right away, but still only felt it was Zuckuss, lol.

PS9 Dengar Tel Alpha, THAT was the first real one that stuck out as "wow, this really too good." And that was really only thanks to Expertise existing, and also Dengaroo's previous existence informing us of Dengar's power with multiple focus tokens.

We look at these cost estimations, and we see "5 pts undercosted" or "3 pts overcosted" compared to another ship, and that throws the player base a red flag. But you cant really say "this is clearly too hard to beat with EVERY archetype" until you've tried and tried or gathered tons of tourney data. Decimators and Falcons have been overcosted turret platforms from the get-go. Soontir was borderline overcosted. It took a while to really understand that it was their PLAY style that made them good, despite the abyssmal cost.

PS10 Nym + Genius + Bomblet, clearly too good tactically, but 40 pts for 10 Hull 1 Agi, that seems abyssmal #s wise. How do we know the meta or general play tactics won't hash out to make him look bad? Decimators, for example, would care minimally for what Nym can do. Maybe Kylo Deci gets popular to take on Nym. Maybe Nym players play Nym less due to this fear. Maybe Aces learn the tactics or to include the support ships that suddenly make it impossible for Nym to regularly win.

Also, Im still 100% certain 3 x Deadeye Skurrg is not a thing that will drive the meta any way similar to 3 x Deadeye JM5K. Rolling boosting turrets (which will ALWAYS find a way to be popular) will keep that list from being a regular meta contender.

Edited by phild0

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1 hour ago, Tbetts94 said:

He was not the only one. Everyone came up with the combo within hours...

yeah, moment g-chips and scout cost were revealed it was pretty much gg there

though even if I hadn't pointed out the combo, the (back then) Kavil blaster turret + r4 aggro ruling --> deadeye in same wave were waving some giant red flags

Edited by ficklegreendice

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4 hours ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

If I was in charge, the game would be fun for everyone. Like it used to be before the old design team left and Alex Davy and Frank Brooks ruined it with the crew in the Corvette and wave 4. There would be no NPE's. Sure maybe you didn't like swarms but at least a swarm player is still playing the game.

If you were in charge, the Phantom, fat turrets, Palpatine, x7, Zuckuss, and Manaroo would still be broken. There probably wouldn't have been a wave 11 without the Phantom nerf or a nerf to fat turrets.

At this point the game is so based around abusing NPE's that ignore core aspects of this game that too much would have to be nerfed. I'd settle for a dozen moderate balance changes.

Your rear facing glasses are so tinted it hurts, I don't have the time to go pull up everything people hated from wave 1-3. One of your biggest complaints salty is the pwt that's wave 2... And to claim these waves were designed well we can look at the 1 damage hwk as a glaring example of how those waves had issues. Let alone completely useless game mechanics like ordanace (at the time).

Saltyboy gets to define what is fun for everyone. If you find stuff fun that he does not, well you are going to hear about how you make him have a negative play experience.

Also salt, I don't actually fly any of the things you find to be npe at least very rarely, I prefer small based arced ships I just can't stand your attitude.

I don't pretend to know anything about the play testing system but they do a pretty good job. What does get through does seem to get fixed. The fact that some of you think you know better then FFG and all the play testers after playing with stuff once or twice or even just reading about it is insane. Not everything is perfect, and it never will be there is to many moving parts. Having opinions is one thing claiming the design and testing team don't know anything is just rude.

 

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saying it wasnt obvious unless 1 guy posted it doesnt mean much.

I'm the only one in my local gaming group that noticed the Nym + Genius thing, but going to a tourny the town over there were at least 4 other nyms built the exact same way (partner was different/had different loadout). And i saw it all over the forums not even a day after release

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One problem with the open playtesting could be one of licencing.  Disney allows FFG to use Star Wars but how and when and to who it is released is up to them.  this is one of the reasons playtesters have to sign a non-disclosure agreement.  Look at Rogue 1.  The ships came out alongside the movie.  This would mean that playtesting was well before movie finalization.  You can't let ship secrets out like that for an open playtest. 

Not to mention the other problem of bad players.  How many times do we see a post about how the Phantom needs to go back to the way it originally came out?  The answer is no we shouldn't.

Edited by thestggrwng
added a thought

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42 minutes ago, Icelom said:

The fact that some of you think you know better then FFG and all the play testers after playing with stuff once or twice or even just reading about it is insane.

It is insane. Which is what makes it so maddening when FFG comes out and says they never saw the power of a jumpmaster being used as an alpha strike, and a bunch of scrubs discussing the game on these forums found that out without playing a game with the card (ok I'm done beating that drum now, promise).

Lowwrrick and Nym are a different case because the designers seemed fully aware of the possibilities they brought to the game as we see them now. If these pilots do prove to be worthy of nerfs or NPEs for a majority of players, then we should be really worried about their ability to design and test new upgrades for balanced play in that case.

 

The designers and/or playtesters do many things well, but they can miss some things that would not be missed if more eyes were available to scrutinize their decisions. This is not a knock on them as even the best designers are not going to be able to see every possible interaction when new things are introduced. This is exactly why an open play testing would be beneficial. That's the main point I'm trying to make.

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1 minute ago, thestggrwng said:

One problem with the open playtesting could be one of licencing.  Disney allows FFG to use Star Wars but how and when and to who it is released is up to them.  this is one of the reasons playtesters have to sign a non-disclosure agreement.  Look at Rogue 1.  The ships came out alongside the movie.  This would mean that playtesting was well before movie finalization.  You can't let ship secrets out like that for an open playtest. 

They don't give any details about the ships, pilots or upgrades in playtesting. They use code names.

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2 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

They don't give any details about the ships, pilots or upgrades in playtesting. They use code names.

Disney is very very tight lipped.  Even with code names, it can be easy to extrapolate what is what and what it's abilities are.  

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12 minutes ago, thestggrwng said:

Disney is very very tight lipped.  Even with code names, it can be easy to extrapolate what is what and what it's abilities are.  

Then those select few ships are held back, IF that's a problem.

Some bottom of the barrel EU Q-Wing with a white 2 Segnors is open play testing fair game.

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28 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

It is insane. Which is what makes it so maddening when FFG comes out and says they never saw the power of a jumpmaster being used as an alpha strike, and a bunch of scrubs discussing the game on these forums found that out without playing a game with the card (ok I'm done beating that drum now, promise).

Lowwrrick and Nym are a different case because the designers seemed fully aware of the possibilities they brought to the game as we see them now. If these pilots do prove to be worthy of nerfs or NPEs for a majority of players, then we should be really worried about their ability to design and test new upgrades for balanced play in that case.

 

The designers and/or playtesters do many things well, but they can miss some things that would not be missed if more eyes were available to scrutinize their decisions. This is not a knock on them as even the best designers are not going to be able to see every possible interaction when new things are introduced. This is exactly why an open play testing would be beneficial. That's the main point I'm trying to make.

Same scrubs said palp was doa because he costed to much for what he does... 

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4 hours ago, Velvetelvis said:

X wing famous people only come here periodically to advertise a podcast....

 

That then goes on to insult the same forum members they try to siphon patreon money from.

You will almost never see anyone in the inner circle of secret greatness post anything other than that.

You know...because we're all to stupid to matter.

I'm really depressed you feel this way.  I've always endeavored to be as transparent and direct as possible.  I've tried to give back to our community in the best ways I know how.

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3 minutes ago, Mynock Delta said:

I'm really depressed you feel this way.  I've always endeavored to be as transparent and direct as possible.  I've tried to give back to our community in the best ways I know how.

Looking at your post history he is kind of right... 193 posts joined the same time as me and they are mostly podcast posts... 

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3 minutes ago, Icelom said:

Same scrubs said palp was doa because he costed to much for what he does... 

Which is why you would have everyone able to evaluate the card in action to curve incorrect evaluations. I'm in no way saying you should believe the initial hype in every case. In most cases, it is very much off.

But deadeye scouts werent just good in theory. They were good in reality. If they were good in theory but bad in reality, obviously it would be a moot point.

Palp to many was poor in theory, but he is much more visible as a powerful card when in play. All it took was 10 or so games with him to realize the potential.

 The irony here is Palp is an example of a more worrisome trend- the designers being fully aware of a good way he works (the preview article had him with soontir and Vader if I recall correctly, the original Palp aces), and still being unaware of its power. 

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12 minutes ago, Icelom said:

Looking at your post history he is kind of right... 193 posts joined the same time as me and they are mostly podcast posts... 

Because people know him as a podcaster... He spends a ton of time making his podcast, so of course that's what he talks about. I would wager that most of Major Juggler's posts are about mathwing because that's what he does! Most of Biophysical's posts are probably about Defenders because that's what he flies! Most of my posts are about my unabashed love for the TIE Phantom because that's what I love to fly! 

We each carve out our niche in this community. 

Edited by Crit Happens

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56 minutes ago, thestggrwng said:

Disney is very very tight lipped.  Even with code names, it can be easy to extrapolate what is what and what it's abilities are.  

Codename: Space fighter 79.

ability: Once per turn, you may flip a damage card facedown (insert whatever you want here)

 

Holy ****, Rey Fett!!!

:huh:

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Look at all the experts.  WoW.  I wonder if there have been "real" Beta players in the group... It is a lot of writing. A lot.

I have my opinions and I will always share them.  Reinforce, worst mistake coming from Epic (my favorite format) for example.

Does not make me an expert on the playing process because I DON'T KNOW the process.  I do know that I don't want group-think making decisions.  Why?  Because I am the crazy guy who is still flying Keyan at store championship.  I don't want your vanilla testing solution.

But who do you think are the testers?  Should they be good players, crappy players?  Initiuative?  Random?  Everyone had an opinion.  I do.  

I "may" have been approached once to submit a request to be a tester many years ago because testers need opponents.  Alas I could not because I cant commit.  But I do know they get compensated in a way, they get to try new stuff out.  How cool is that.

Testing had to grow and the community use to be small and barely connected.  Some guys went to Regionals and Worlds and started taking.  Podcasts started.  Things like that, things we take for granted.  Of course you go Patreon you better deliver :-)

So this post ended longer that it should have and really I should have just said, "Chill"

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23 minutes ago, Crit Happens said:

 Most of Biophysical's posts are probably about Defenders because that's what he flies!

I'll be honest, I'm a little surprised I still have a reputation for Defenders.  I haven't done anything serious with them for a while now, and certainly most of the writing is almost 2 years old by now.

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5 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I'll be honest, I'm a little surprised I still have a reputation for Defenders.  I haven't done anything serious with them for a while now, and certainly most of the writing is almost 2 years old by now.

Sorry, don't want to misrepresent you, but you'll always be the crazy defender of TIE Defenders in our hearts!

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17 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I'll be honest, I'm a little surprised I still have a reputation for Defenders.  I haven't done anything serious with them for a while now, and certainly most of the writing is almost 2 years old by now.

Well, you flew two Defenders to success at a time when they just weren't easy to win with at all, much less with only two of them, heavily kitted out.

The thing is, even if that feat was an outlier, your follow-up discussion of it, and of Defenders in general, was pretty thoughtful and rigorous.  (Which was a nice change, Sturgeon said.)  So maybe you're coasting, but there's nothing wrong with that.  It's not like you're duping anybody and getting rich.

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