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Crit Happens

Playtesting, Leaks, Outrage, and the #HumbleBrag

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FFG is in a tight spot because they are dealing with Disney IP, especially for unreleased movies with potentially billions on the line.  FFG can't just do public play testing for as yet announced ships, and play testing for things like FAQ changes would likely be incorporating play using a yet to be announced next wave.  Their secrecy is probably as much a result of their contracts with Disney as anything else. 

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20 minutes ago, Velvetelvis said:

X wing famous people only come here periodically to advertise a podcast....

 

That then goes on to insult the same forum members they try to siphon patreon money from.

You will almost never see anyone in the inner circle of secret greatness post anything other than that.

You know...because we're all to stupid to matter.

I wil recognize I'm not in the loop, but honestly, this crazy secret society BS is BS. This forum used to be one of the greatest places of knowledge of this game.  ITs still good, just, certain of the most valuable posters have stopped posting, and no one really has filled those gaps. 

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33 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

When the YV666 was released, how many of you considered using 3 Tacticians? I sure didn't (Lack of Imagination)

Isn't this a point in favor of open playtesting? If you didn't think of it, maybe the other playtesters didn't either. But you know who did? Someone who played the game did.

 

I think this is a bit of a poor example, because that interaction seems like a pretty obvious one to many. The more appropriate example is contracted scouts.

 

It seems no designer or playtester saw how Scouts were going to be as alpha strikers. But that was figured out ON THESE FORUMS within hours of the article preview, before any of us had even touched the ship. And guess what? We were right. I still remember when @ficklegreendice posted the deadeye combo, and thinking "holy crap. Torpedoes are gonna be good!". But I didn't realize the designers weren't even aware of this combo. That combo was way, waaaaaay too good.

 

That goes to show that if the wider community was aware of potential cards, even if they aren't directly asked to playtest, they can have an impact. Let's say a designer or playtester saw the discussion of deadeye scouts while playtesting was still open. They probably would have went, "hmm. I should probably test that out. That sounds effective", and found out that yes, that is too strong. 

 

And the game would be better for it.

Edited by Kdubb

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Cad bane? a problem?

Nothing compared to Sabine. His ability only works on die rolling bombs and has a habit of not doing anything anyway. Getting a bomb slot is about all he does.

These forums still have a lot of valuable information, its just flooded with crybabies so finding that information is a pain. But, all the useful bits i find on here i dont know where else i'd find it (reddit is even worse)

 

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1 minute ago, Kdubb said:

Isn't this a point in favor of open playtesting? If you didn't think of it, maybe the other playtesters didn't either. But you know who did? Someone who played the game did.

 

I think this is a bit of a poor example, because that interaction seems like a pretty obvious one to many. The more appropriate example is contracted scouts.

 

It seems no designer or playtester saw how Scouts were going to be as alpha strikers. But that was figured out ON THESE FORUMS within hours of the article preview, before any of us had even touched the ship. And guess what? We were right. I still remember when @ficklegreendice posted the deadeye combo, and thinking "holy crap. Torpedoes are gonna be good!". But I didn't realize the designers weren't even aware of this combo. That combo was way, waaaaaay too good.

 

That goes to show that if the wider community was aware of potential cards, even if they aren't directly asked to playtest, they can have an impact. Let's say a designer or playtester saw the discussion of deadeye scouts while playtesting was still open. They probably would have went, "hmm. I should probably test that out. That sounds effective", and found out that yes, that is too strong. 

KDubb tha god!

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3 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I wil recognize I'm not in the loop, but honestly, this crazy secret society BS is BS. This forum used to be one of the greatest places of knowledge of this game.  ITs still good, just, certain of the most valuable posters have stopped posting, and no one really has filled those gaps. 

I concede that for sure

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funny thing about the jm5k reveal was that we didn't know a few things, such as the point cost of the scout or what gchips did (but we thought it'd be focus or something on odrnance for 2 points)

looking at just the deadeye --> r4 aggro combo, I thought we'd be getting a fun, more effective fringer

then bam, 25 points and 0 point g-chips with just straight die --> hit

at that point, you could sorta tell how stupid it was going to be :P

 

EDIT: I mean, FFG had to have known at least a little considering deadeye was coming out again in the same wave (in another expac <_<)

Edited by ficklegreendice

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4 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

funny thing about the jm5k reveal was that we didn't know a few things, such as the point cost of the scout or what gchips did (but we thought it'd be focus or something on odrnance for 2 points)

looking at just the deadeye --> r4 aggro combo, I thought we'd be getting a fun, more effective fringer

then bam, 25 points and 0 point g-chips with just straight die --> hit

at that point, you could sorta tell how stupid it was going to be :P

Chips was good.  Just jumps were too good.  And jumps had too much value everywhere. 

 

Hoesntly, I still think its best to raise cost of scout and kangaroo to +3  and remove EPT. Up cost of Dengar by +1 or +2. That I think would solve most issues.  

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4 hours ago, Velvetelvis said:

here is no "playtesting" going on. There is " me and my buddies now have the inside scoop on the future" going on.

I point this out as a possibility more than a few times previously over the past year.

5 hours ago, Crit Happens said:

2) the playtesters are finding these combos, and not reporting them

3) the playtesters are finding and reporting these combos, but FFG is not taking their advice

 

 

I'm not a play tester, nor am I "in" with any play testing crowd, but from what little information I have managed to get, it's both of this.

I have been told that more than a few people in EU reported the J5K as an issue. But FFG didn't listen. I am unaware if anyone on the US side reported the same or not, but it could suggest that FFG (over) values one or more groups of play testers over others and that it could suggest that said groups aren't as honest as they could be.

 

2 hours ago, Sithborg said:

I look at all the posters who want to be amateur designers, with a self inflated sense of how good they are at it, and I don't see how anyone can say open playtesting would be a good idea with a straight face. It would be a freaking disaster. First of all, there reaches a point where too much information is detrimental. You have to sift through a 100 times more data, and a whole lot more will be worthless data. And I am convinced that a whole lot more would be worthless, with people trying to push their crappy designs onto them, rather than actually providing feedback.

Erm PP did this with MKII, and out the gate MKII worked VERY well. It was greeted as a massive success by the player base (But not so much by the Company's bottom line as they sold next to nothing during the MKII Field test...)

MKIII has the Community Integrated development project (CID or Kidd) where they 3-4 months prior to release of a product the public play test it and things change. However, PP have moved completely away from supplying cards with their models, it's all online and app based, and we know how much FFG like de-forestation :P

 

My point being, Public playing testing can and does work

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32 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

Isn't this a point in favor of open playtesting? If you didn't think of it, maybe the other playtesters didn't either. But you know who did? Someone who played the game did.

 

I think this is a bit of a poor example, because that interaction seems like a pretty obvious one to many. The more appropriate example is contracted scouts.

 

It seems no designer or playtester saw how Scouts were going to be as alpha strikers. But that was figured out ON THESE FORUMS within hours of the article preview, before any of us had even touched the ship. And guess what? We were right. I still remember when @ficklegreendice posted the deadeye combo, and thinking "holy crap. Torpedoes are gonna be good!". But I didn't realize the designers weren't even aware of this combo. That combo was way, waaaaaay too good.

 

That goes to show that if the wider community was aware of potential cards, even if they aren't directly asked to playtest, they can have an impact. Let's say a designer or playtester saw the discussion of deadeye scouts while playtesting was still open. They probably would have went, "hmm. I should probably test that out. That sounds effective", and found out that yes, that is too strong. 

 

And the game would be better for it.

 

And even if it's discovered, let's see what happens:

A casual player either doesn't see a problem with Deadeye torp scouts, or isn't good enough to be able to figure out the combo. "Look guys, I put Expose on Zuckuss and I flew Manaroo with push the limit to feed Zuckuss tokens isn't that neat?" That's the only input that a casual player can contribute, absolutely nothing but worthless chaff data.

A competitive player doesn't think that it's a problem because "It's not broken, just get good and fly exclusively Wes Jansen".

Because these issue are figured out in a vacuum, not a competitive environment, there is no rigorous testing on this stuff. Let's say you weren't on the forums and had only been to a handful of tournaments. When you're given the Jumpmaster to play test, do you figure out Dengaroo or Deadeye (of all cards, right?) torp scouts? No, of course you don't.

And if you're a tournament player, let's say that you share @Rat of Vengence or @Icelom's opinion on game balance. "Okay, so let's have a look at what people are saying. We have the usual threads of people caterwauling that the sky is falling, Nym is going to kill everyone and the horse they rode in on. Then we have threads where people are asking how to stop him dying so quickly.

 

That sounds like balance to me, at least so far. Let's give it a bit more time and get used to how he plays and the interations with other ships/cards before we have more people mistaking bad play for an OP ship"

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Now imagine that the person that said this is a play tester (I don't know if RoV or Icelom actually are, just making an example). That's how stupid bull gets into this game. Flying at someone, bumping into them, and hitting them with infinite bombs that you ignore yourself isn't broken, and if you complain about it you're just, "Mistaking bad play for an OP ship".

In other words, " It's not broken, just get good."

Edited by SaltMaster 5000

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58 minutes ago, Velvetelvis said:

X wing famous people only come here periodically to advertise a podcast....

 

That then goes on to insult the same forum members they try to siphon patreon money from.

You will almost never see anyone in the inner circle of secret greatness post anything other than that.

You know...because we're all to stupid to matter.

*too :D

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50 minutes ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

Getting blindsided by Dengaroo is one thing.

Lowhhrick's ability or triple Deadeye Scurggs or Bomblet Generator on anything besides a Punisher or Cad Bane crew, these are all obvious, blatant problems.

Are they that obvious? Right now we have the luxury of hindsight. It's difficult to separate what we know now from what we didn't know back then. I'm sure that some evil genius would come up with triple scouts but I'm not sure it was that obvious.

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42 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

Isn't this a point in favor of open playtesting? If you didn't think of it, maybe the other playtesters didn't either. But you know who did? Someone who played the game did.

 

I think this is a bit of a poor example, because that interaction seems like a pretty obvious one to many. The more appropriate example is contracted scouts.

 

It seems no designer or playtester saw how Scouts were going to be as alpha strikers. But that was figured out ON THESE FORUMS within hours of the article preview, before any of us had even touched the ship. And guess what? We were right. I still remember when @ficklegreendice posted the deadeye combo, and thinking "holy crap. Torpedoes are gonna be good!". But I didn't realize the designers weren't even aware of this combo. That combo was way, waaaaaay too good.

 

That goes to show that if the wider community was aware of potential cards, even if they aren't directly asked to playtest, they can have an impact. Let's say a designer or playtester saw the discussion of deadeye scouts while playtesting was still open. They probably would have went, "hmm. I should probably test that out. That sounds effective", and found out that yes, that is too strong. 

 

And the game would be better for it.

Granted, there are some advantages to open source testing. But there is so much we don't know about the restrictions in the licensing agreement that may make open-source testing a non-starter.

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4 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

Are they that obvious? Right now we have the luxury of hindsight. It's difficult to separate what we know now from what we didn't know back then. I'm sure that some evil genius would come up with triple scouts but I'm not sure it was that obvious.

Deadeye Scouts wasn't obvious.

The instant I looked at Lowhhrick's ability or saw the cost of the PS 3 EPT Scurgg, an overpowered build instantly came to me.

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1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:

This might just be the most important thread of this entire dismal year.  Begin support. Move to change the playtest and balance testing of Xwing. 

Its very telling to em also, I've been around, I know who some of the play testers are, I don't see them commenting much here. 

Why should they comment? They'd end up having to defend themselves personally.

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4 minutes ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

Deadeye Scouts wasn't obvious.

The instant I looked at Lowhhrick's ability or saw the cost of the PS 3 EPT Scurgg, an overpowered build instantly came to me.

Deadeye Scouts were all over Hoth Open and even won it. The expansion came out days before it and every one knew the combo. It was obvious. 

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2 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

Are they that obvious? Right now we have the luxury of hindsight. It's difficult to separate what we know now from what we didn't know back then. I'm sure that some evil genius would come up with triple scouts but I'm not sure it was that obvious.

It was obvious enough that the combo was found within hours of the jumpmaster preview article being released. That seems to indicate to me pretty clearly that in its current form, playtesting and/or design is not as successful as it could or should be.

 

Now Dengaroo is another beast altogether. That shows another issue though. When a ship does not pay any sort of "combo tax" for a large number of upgrade slots (munitions slots would usually not count towards this tax), it's only a matter of time before a skilled list builder finds a combo that creates massive value. It is perfectly reasonable to believe that Dengaroo couldn't be figured out by the designers or playtesters, but they should have at least been aware that the jumpmaster was entirely capable of finding upgrade combinations they had not perceived which would have it exceed their assumed value from their small sample size.

I'm actually considering trying to find the thread discussing the jumpmaster preview article just to see when the deadeye combo was brought up, but we all know that using this forum's :rolleyes:search engine can be pretty futile. 

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5 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

It's always interesting to note who suddenly drops a list that's dominating to play something unusual.

"you're pairing Miranda with that, right?"

"no"

"oh right any reason?  Surely Miranda is the best thing there

"...nope, no reason... 'wink'..."

It's probably because they are true xwing hipsters

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1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:

This might just be the most important thread of this entire dismal year.  Begin support. Move to change the playtest and balance testing of Xwing. 

Its very telling to em also, I've been around, I know who some of the play testers are, I don't see them commenting much here. 

It's pretty clear that they can't comment, so this isn't surprising. Also, there's no reason that they should have to defend themselves.

I have no doubt that most of the playtesters work quite hard, and take pride in what they do to help balance the game. I want to be clear that I am criticizing the current playtesting system. No one needs to be called out to defend themselves here for providing a free service to FFG. Go over to Reddit if that's what you're hoping for.

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