Jump to content
Crit Happens

Playtesting, Leaks, Outrage, and the #HumbleBrag

Recommended Posts

18 minutes ago, Icelom said:

I would not trust 90% of you with balance.

Open testing are you guys mad? Only a few days ago someone played against a nym list twice and list one of those games so made a post demanding everyone involved be fired.

**** I wouldn't trust myself, I think drastically differently about what is good and what is not compared to most of the people constantly complaining on here.

 

15 minutes ago, Wiredin said:

@Icelom

 

agreed, if I was play testing I'd probably lobby for bombs to be twice as expensive. 

Those absurd ideas are outliers though, which get drowned out by sound, evidence based opinions that are brought forward by multiple people. If there are enough checks and balances put in place, it will become too much of a hassle for those who truly don't care about balance to continue pushing their agenda.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Sithborg said:

Yes, in each release. 

I wonder where. Is it on the inserts with the ships?

I guess I'm curious because I'm developing a wierd crappy feeling that a lot of those names are people in the x wing famous or podcast communities.

I would prefer to be wrong.

Edited by Velvetelvis

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Icelom said:

If you were in charge salt, we would just sit across from each other with no ships, after you removed all the "npe" stuff.

If I was in charge, the game would be fun for everyone. Like it used to be before the old design team left and Alex Davy and Frank Brooks ruined it with the crew in the Corvette and wave 4. There would be no NPE's. Sure maybe you didn't like swarms but at least a swarm player is still playing the game.

If you were in charge, the Phantom, fat turrets, Palpatine, x7, Zuckuss, and Manaroo would still be broken. There probably wouldn't have been a wave 11 without the Phantom nerf or a nerf to fat turrets.

At this point the game is so based around abusing NPE's that ignore core aspects of this game that too much would have to be nerfed. I'd settle for a dozen moderate balance changes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So the playtesting is wrong because simultaneously, all the playtesters are filthy casuals who don't know a thing about competitive X-Wing, and all the playtesters are people who get such a huge edge from being playtesters that they end up winning all the competitive events (and that effect is so powerful that they become X-Wing famous before they became playtesters because we all know time travel is real).

Is that an accurate portrayal of the complaints in this thread?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, haslo said:

So the playtesting is wrong because simultaneously, all the playtesters are filthy casuals who don't know a thing about competitive X-Wing, and all the playtesters are people who get such a huge edge from being playtesters that they end up winning all the competitive events (and that effect is so powerful that they become X-Wing famous before they became playtesters because we all know time travel is real).

Is that an accurate portrayal of the complaints in this thread?

The playtesting is wrong because it doesn't really meet any of the criteria of proper playtesting, or achieve any of the goals in anything like a structured way.

I don't think it really matters who you put into a system like that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

If I was in charge, the game would be fun for everyone. Like it used to be ...

"Sounds an awful lot like a dictatorship."
"If it works..."
(There's your prequel quote for the day)

-------------------------------------------

Here are my biggest concerns about open playtesting. First, is the problem of everybody knowing what could have been. By that I mean, if people playtest one version and love it, but enough other people suggested it be changed, then when it's released, there are people that feel betrayed because the product they practiced with and fell in love with is different. Not inherently a bad thing, but I could see this getting messy if the community was divided on a particular topic, e.g. should this ship have upgrade slot X or not. Then, no matter which way the developers choose, half the community is like, "Dude, why'd you do that!? It was so much better the other way! Grr - rage quit!" Or something along those lines. Due to the NDA, playtesters can't discuss even the "what could have beens", which overall makes for a more healthy community.

The second concern is personal, and I expect many people will not agree with me. I prefer to play games with released content. If I play on Vassal, sure my opponent can use the previewed material, but I won't. That's okay because Vassal is a small fraction of my play time nowadays. However, if you have open playtesting, then almost every game you play will likely be with these new ships to see how they do. We'd be playing with bases with numbers on them without any ships. The whole thing turns into perpetual work. I'd rather play my X-wing in the meta of released content, than worry about new Ships A, B, and C on the horizon. Yes, I would love to do my part to help make a balanced game, but not at the expense of my free time, which is why I never was really interested in playtesting - it's a huge commitment that takes a lot of time and serious effort. I don't have that kind of time to commit to making sure we have a balanced game. (Sorry this last point was kind of rambling.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, haslo said:

So the playtesting is wrong because simultaneously, all the playtesters are filthy casuals who don't know a thing about competitive X-Wing, and all the playtesters are people who get such a huge edge from being playtesters that they end up winning all the competitive events (and that effect is so powerful that they become X-Wing famous before they became playtesters because we all know time travel is real).

Is that an accurate portrayal of the complaints in this thread?

The play testers are comprised of both of these groups.

FFG gives them something that's broken to play test. The casual players don't care that it's broken because the card does something thematic or cool or whatever and they're too stupid to utilize it correctly, and the competitive players don't think it's broken because, "It's not broken, just get good".

These attitudes feed off one another and both hold the game back.

The third group, the reasonable group that just wants the game to be fun and not broken and wants broken things fixed ASAP, is likely very small in the play testing community as it is in the larger X-Wing community. They get shouted down by both groups.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

The third group, the reasonable group that just wants the game to be fun and not broken and wants broken things fixed ASAP, is likely very small in the play testing community as it is in the larger X-Wing community. They get shouted down by both groups.

I found this diamond on top of a pile of dog crap, and I'm just gonna move it and leave it here for people to admire.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

I found this diamond on top of a pile of dog crap, and I'm just gonna move it and leave it here for people to admire.

Holy quack, diamonds for everyone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

The playtesting is wrong because it doesn't really meet any of the criteria of proper playtesting, or achieve any of the goals in anything like a structured way.

I don't think it really matters who you put into a system like that.

And this seems to be the issue. Playtesting seems to be more of a "sign up to get goodies first!" Group instead of a "break this as hard as you can so we can get this right" group. This is coming from someone on the outside though, so I really don't know much, and I could have it all wrong.

 

I really don't know much about the process,  but I feel like there should be 20 or so preset lists that land on the desired power curve of the players, which should be tested against new material extensively to assure your attempts at breaking the game do not in fact push the game beyond the power curve.

These lists could include 4BZ, a generic z or tie swarm, a triple imperial aces list, just to name a few.

 

I would be really curious to see if this is how it is done at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The humble braggers are mostly liars. when this FAQ turns out to be fake(as it almost certainly is) then we'll have proof, but even if its real most people just want to be associated with insider knowledge.

 Someone said they knew a secret and were cool because they knew the secret, and now a bunch of other people want to be cool so they are saying they knew it too.

Every post here where someone says they know the future of X-wing people chime in to say its "verified". Guess wave 11 was Resistance troop transport, Mining guild tie, and Gunship right? cause that was "verified", lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

And this seems to be the issue. Playtesting seems to be more of a "sign up to get goodies first!" Group instead of a "break this as hard as you can so we can get this right" group. This is coming from someone on the outside though, so I really don't know much, and I could have it all wrong.

I wish I could do a "come at me, bro," with fielding playtester questions, but of course 95% of answers would be, "I can't tell you."

What I can say is that as much as playtesters vary, when I was doing it I never got the impression from a single playtester that they were there for any reason other than they wanted to help make the game better, whatever that meant for them.  I can't say they didn't exist, but I never saw them.

I can also say that I do not believe that playtesting should be anywhere close to 100% about "break this as hard as you can."  There is a lot more to the game, even now, than finding power combos.  (I, personally, am terrible at finding power combos -- though I'm good at immediately grasping them, and associated issues, when pointed out -- because my educational and work background is largely about looking at the whole context of rules, which for my personality translates into wanting to see how the rules play as intended.  Luckily, lots of playtesters had lots of different strengths.)

Okay, I've scanned this four times now, out of paranoia, and it's not breaking any NDA, so I guess I'll hit Submit Reply ...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alright, calm down before anyone strokes out. 

Regarding the "Who's Who" of play testers. Before you jump to the latest release go back to the original core set and Wave 1-2 release and count the number of playtesters. The number of playtesters has increased dramatically over the course of the game as more options became available. Some of these guys may have been asked to become playtesters because they are so **** good. 

IMHO open source playtesting is a bad idea for a number of reasons, some already mentioned. Some that haven't include Faction Bias, poor ability and lack of imagination. 

When the YV666 was released, how many of you considered using 3 Tacticians? I sure didn't (Lack of Imagination)

Rebel ships being tested by Imperial players. Not necessarily a good idea. (Faction Bias)

Poor ability speaks for itself.

If you control the number of playtesters, you control who works on what. That's gone with the open-source route. Also, throwing more people at a problem doesn't equate with better results. Only more opinions.

There's little to be done about human nature. Civil penalties for NDA violations are one way to attempt to curtail leaks. The guy that's "in the know" that leaks something to bolster his ego isn't likely to be dissuaded by an NDA. 

I wish we'd get rid of the pessimism and negativity on these forums. It puts people in a bad mood, reflects poorly on the players and makes the game less enjoyable. I've never known so many "glass is half full" people to inhabit one location. Yeah, that will happen right after I get my Bentley.

My frustration stems from my inability to reconcile the difference between the good people I meet playing this game and some of the posters on these forums. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This might just be the most important thread of this entire dismal year.  Begin support. Move to change the playtest and balance testing of Xwing. 

Its very telling to em also, I've been around, I know who some of the play testers are, I don't see them commenting much here. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

This might just be the most important thread of this entire dismal year.  Begin support. Move to change the playtest and balance testing of Xwing. 

Its very telling to em also, I've been around, I know who some of the play testers are, I don't see them commenting much here. 

X wing famous people only come here periodically to advertise a podcast....

 

That then goes on to insult the same forum members they try to siphon patreon money from.

You will almost never see anyone in the inner circle of secret greatness post anything other than that.

You know...because we're all to stupid to matter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

And this seems to be the issue. Playtesting seems to be more of a "sign up to get goodies first!" Group instead of a "break this as hard as you can so we can get this right" group. This is coming from someone on the outside though, so I really don't know much, and I could have it all wrong.

 

I really don't know much about the process,  but I feel like there should be 20 or so preset lists that land on the desired power curve of the players, which should be tested against new material extensively to assure your attempts at breaking the game do not in fact push the game beyond the power curve.

These lists could include 4BZ, a generic z or tie swarm, a triple imperial aces list, just to name a few.

 

I would be really curious to see if this is how it is done at all.

If I'm reading you correctly, this won't work. You'd have to integrate new releases in with the existing to see if a new monster emerges. The Dengar-Nym build that someone lost their mind over is one example. 

I think you'll find that as this game matures and grows more OP combinations are going to emerge and need nerfing. There will be just too many combinations to consider for different interactions with existing upgrades. The players will then become the defacto playtesters

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Stoneface said:

I think you'll find that as this game matures and grows more OP combinations are going to emerge and need nerfing. There will be just too many combinations to consider for different interactions with existing upgrades.

Getting blindsided by Dengaroo is one thing.

Lowhhrick's ability or triple Deadeye Scurggs or Bomblet Generator on anything besides a Punisher or Cad Bane crew, these are all obvious, blatant problems.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...