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UPDATED!!!! - US Nationals at NoVa Open: Wave 6 Rulings

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"A" being the key word meaning singular.  IIRC there are other upgrade cards in the game the specify "1 or more" instances.  The fact that "1 or more" exists would lead me to beleive that "A" is singular.  that's some RAI for sure, but its solid logic behind it.  if there is no 1 or more clause in my armada on another card then im not sure you can justify the A being only singular

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Hmm. I just spent an inordinate amount of time reading through this thread. Some points...

i have never heard of Q before this. No idea who he is. While winning tourneys does not a rule expert make you, it does seem, from his posts, that he may have access to some inside info. Hmm.

I ain't going to Nationals, so no salt here.

I see the rules as written. Token gets Sloaned, it's spent, can't be used again in this attack. 

If this is officially changed by FFG, then Sloane goes from very good to totally useless, IMO.

So I'll wait till official word. In the meantime, Q 'is' the tourney Marshal, so of course have to respect that. Hard thankless job. I've TOd many a 40k tourney, long ago......no stranger to huge fights over rules.

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Honestly I blame FFG for all of this. The game's rules should be written in a way that does not require the players to make an extensive research to find out how to apply them. I mean, would it be so hard to add something like "If a token is spent this way, the defender does not benefit from it's effect." to the Sloane's card? Or, you know, to include a clarification in the the expansion blister? Or release a FAQ just before the new wave hits the shelves? Any of these would cut short all the arguments about Sloane and prevent situations such as this, where even a TO struggles to understand and apply the rules correctly.

I'd understand if this was the first time Armada's rules were ambiguous and unintuitive, but it's far from it. The game struggles with this problem from the very beginning. I can't recall how many times I had to explain to new players that critical effects are resolved before damage is applied even though 90% of the cases critical damage is applied when damage cards are dealt (not confusing at all FFG!). Or that a "ship" might include just the cardboard, the base without shield indicators or base with shield indicators depending on what you're doing at the moment (again, WHY?!!!, why couldn't you just make one rule for all the situations and avoid the confusion?). Armada is niche as it is. It's really hard expand the player base when it seems you could write a thesis about it and still not be sure what to do in some cases.

Edited by Lightrock

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1 hour ago, Darth Lupine said:

Hmm. I just spent an inordinate amount of time reading through this thread. Some points...

i have never heard of Q before this. No idea who he is. While winning tourneys does not a rule expert make you, it does seem, from his posts, that he may have access to some inside info. Hmm.

I ain't going to Nationals, so no salt here.

I see the rules as written. Token gets Sloaned, it's spent, can't be used again in this attack. 

If this is officially changed by FFG, then Sloane goes from very good to totally useless, IMO.

So I'll wait till official word. In the meantime, Q 'is' the tourney Marshal, so of course have to respect that. Hard thankless job. I've TOd many a 40k tourney, long ago......no stranger to huge fights over rules.

I've been playing Sloane that way the whole time.  Though, that's not to say I don't think the other way makes her underpowered.... 

I thought for sure Sato had to be ruled one way. Turned out I was right.  But it turns out, I was also wrong: it made Sato near useless according to data.  

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1 hour ago, Lightrock said:

Honestly I blame FFG for all of this. The game's rules should be written in a way that does not require the players to make an extensive research to find out how to apply them.

preech from ur perch

Edited by Blail Blerg
glory and Hailey loo jyah

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11 hours ago, BergerFett said:

honestly... and no offense... this is some bull.

the RAW are clear and unless that discussion that was debated for hours is posted so i can read the entire transcript, I will continue to call it bull.

RAW are RAW.  RAI is a dangerous place. 

The double brace ruling I do not like but I get it, as it says attacker and defender.  The first ruling is pretty cut and dry (RAW) if you ask me and ruling otherwise is just an attempt to balance some you perceive to be "too good". 

You RAI for the first part and then RAW for the second part?  Where should my confidence be as a player in this event for the rulings you haven't listed.  If i call you over during a game can I expect RAI or RAW because right now there is no clear precedence.  pick one, RAI or RAW, whether you personally agree or disagree with the ruling, having a clear precedence for rulings will make you event run better.  This is coming from someone who has run 180person Warmachine/Horde tournaments for 3 years in a row at their equivalent of nationals.  Did I agree with every call I made?  nope.  Every call was RAW and everyone knew it would be RAW from the start.

Yeah, um, you need to calm down and pay some attention to what he's saying:

"I can't extrapolate what I'm saying here, but there was a lot of discussion about this.  Discussion with people I cannot name.  And there is a very, very likely chance this might be addressed soon."

"Also, this is Ruled As Intended."

If you can't grasp that, Armada may not be the game for you.  

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This reminds me of when wmh changed the points cost of a model from 7 to 8 because people kept running lists of like 9 of them and people flipped the **** out. 

 

This is a game, if you dont like the rules, which are explicitly stated well before its hosted, dont play. None of us want to hear how the list you wrote and have been playing is "useless" because they changed or restricted 1 thing.

 

I honestly hope they rule against your reading of it because listening to people whine about plastic models we've all spent a lot on doesnt meet your approval. 

 

Hope you come to GenCon and i play you so i can give you **** about this, I'm Damien ;)

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3 minutes ago, dominosfleet said:

This reminds me of when wmh changed the points cost of a model from 7 to 8 because people kept running lists of like 9 of them and people flipped the **** out. 

 

This is a game, if you dont like the rules, which are explicitly stated well before its hosted, dont play. None of us want to hear how the list you wrote and have been playing is "useless" because they changed or restricted 1 thing.

 

I honestly hope they rule against your reading of it because listening to people whine about plastic models we've all spent a lot on doesnt meet your approval. 

 

Hope you come to GenCon and i play you so i can give you **** about this, I'm Damien ;)

This was not necessary, joke or otherwise. Tempers have been running high, there's no need to go inflaming them, for trolling's sake or not.

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Just now, GiledPallaeon said:

This was not necessary, joke or otherwise. Tempers have been running high, there's no need to go inflaming them, for trolling's sake or not.

I absolutely agree with Giled. 

 

That previous post was really off-color in taste and in morality.  A little more thinking will show why.  

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16 minutes ago, dominosfleet said:

This reminds me of when wmh changed the points cost of a model from 7 to 8 because people kept running lists of like 9 of them and people flipped the **** out. 

We'll, it's a war game, so all they really have to do to piss off half of the player base is change 1 word in 1 rule and watch the world burn.

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On one hand, we get told playtesters know best, on the other they consistently let total bloopers through (and never seem to learn from previous waves to check language on upgrades), so how do you decide?

I only have one issue, having a standard accuracy result against an Ace with Scatter is now 100% more effective than Sloanes ability.

Example : Imperial Tie Advanced (FC+Howl) 6 dice, 3 damage, 2 accuracies, 1 crit. 
Accuracy : Scatter
Accuracy : Brace
Ace takes : 3 damage

Sloane : Scatter
Accuracy : Brace
Ace takes : 0 damage

In virtually all cases having a non Sloane Accuracy result is better than having a Sloane accuracy result, making me question what is the point of Sloane?

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1 minute ago, TheEasternKing said:

On one hand, we get told playtesters know best, on the other they consistently let total bloopers through (and never seem to learn from previous waves to check language on upgrades), so how do you decide?

I only have one issue, having a standard accuracy result against an Ace with Scatter is now 100% more effective than Sloanes ability.

Example : Imperial Tie Advanced (FC+Howl) 6 dice, 3 damage, 2 accuracies, 1 crit. 
Accuracy : Scatter
Accuracy : Brace
Ace takes : 3 damage

Sloane : Scatter
Accuracy : Brace
Ace takes : 0 damage

In virtually all cases having a non Sloane Accuracy result is better than having a Sloane accuracy result, making me question what is the point of Sloane?

The Scatter is discarded for that to happen.  (Sloane turns it from Ready to Exhausted, and then the Defender has to spend it at Exhausted, Discarding it).

So its kinda like an Intel Officer.

Marked difference when throwing 6 dice, for sure...  But it comes up more readily when there's only 4 dice (or 2 damage) invloved.

Edited by Drasnighta

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Just now, Drasnighta said:

The Scatter is discarded for that to happen.  (Sloane turns it from Ready to Exhausted, and then the Defender has to spend it at Exhausted, Discarding it).

So its kinda like an Intel Officer.

I guess Dras, but we're talking squadrons, and squadrons need activations (usually) to be the most effective.

If I can kill a 3hp Scatter ace with one attack, or two, which is the most efficient? I know which I would pick in all circumstances, outright destroying in one activation.

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Just now, TheEasternKing said:

I guess Dras, but we're talking squadrons, and squadrons need activations (usually) to be the most effective.

If I can kill a 3hp Scatter ace with one attack, or two, which is the most efficient? I know which I would pick in all circumstances, outright destroying in one activation.

I mean, this is all stupidly hypothetical, and I don't necessarily disagree - its just...  Not perfectly clean cut...  *IT IS* when there's LOTS of Damage on the Table, for Sure...  If you're able to throw the dice and get the results to kill in one hit.

But if you can't?  Is it better to just ACC a scatter and leave it, or Flip it so if they DO use it, its gone and you can have a go next activation?

I mean, even with 1 Acc, 1 Damage and the rest Crits...  That can be a Telling Decision for the opponent........

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1 minute ago, Caldias said:

Sloane still dumps all over scatter aces.  This interpretation still makes her extremely effective, I am really not seeing how this ruling makes her useless.  That is complete hyperbole imho.

An accuracys without Sloane still dump all over Scatter Aces, so what is your point?

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5 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

On one hand, we get told playtesters know best, on the other they consistently let total bloopers through (and never seem to learn from previous waves to check language on upgrades), so how do you decide?

I only have one issue, having a standard accuracy result against an Ace with Scatter is now 100% more effective than Sloanes ability.

Example : Imperial Tie Advanced (FC+Howl) 6 dice, 3 damage, 2 accuracies, 1 crit. 
Accuracy : Scatter
Accuracy : Brace
Ace takes : 3 damage

Sloane : Scatter
Accuracy : Brace
Ace takes : 0 damage

In virtually all cases having a non Sloane Accuracy result is better than having a Sloane accuracy result, making me question what is the point of Sloane?

I think you are not giving the play testers sufficient credit.  They do know the rules, playtesters are there to bring rules and game play issues to the attention of the game designers.  If the designers decide that the testers are wrong, or can't change the card prior to release sufficiently, they might disregard the testers even with hard evidence that the testers are technically correct.

Also, you are partially correct:  a standard accuracy is better than Sloane's ability at being used to prevent the accuracy from being spent.  But a Sloane accuracy without damage is now infinitely superior to an accuracy that would normally be unusable.

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I'm going to have to get a better grasp on this because I tried to explain it to someone else and failed.

If you use Sloane's ability, all it does is spend an acc to spend a defense token from green to red. Can a second squadron then spend an accuracy to have the player discard that defense token?
If so, that is still kind of good. Squadrons essentially gain a secondary role as a debuff before an assault. I like it. 

Is the concern that RAW make the Sloane acc "lock down" the defense token or something? I am not following the issue.

 

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6 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

An accuracys without Sloane still dump all over Scatter Aces, so what is your point?

HUGE difference.  Without Sloane I hit your scatter and do 4 damage, scatter is unused  and I brace.  2 Damage, and I keep the scatter fresh.  With Sloane I do 4 damage and spend to make your scatter exhaust.  Do you scatter?  You better, cause the next attack might spend the scatter again and discard it before you get to.  So one attack and you discard a token with Sloane, or without Sloane you have a fresh scatter and an exhausted brace.  Is it really that hard to see the utility?

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1 minute ago, Caldias said:

HUGE difference.  Without Sloane I hit your scatter and do 4 damage, scatter is unused  and I brace.  2 Damage, and I keep the scatter fresh.  With Sloane I do 4 damage and spend to make your scatter exhaust.  Do you scatter?  You better, cause the next attack might spend the scatter again and discard it before you get to.  So one attack and you discard a token with Sloane, or without Sloane you have a fresh scatter and an exhausted brace.  Is it really that hard to see the utility?

Also, it makes instances where you roll 1 damage significantly better.  No point bracing, you get to either discard a scatter vs 1 damage or tank it.

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1 minute ago, Caldias said:

HUGE difference.  Without Sloane I hit your scatter and do 4 damage, scatter is unused  and I brace.  2 Damage, and I keep the scatter fresh.  With Sloane I do 4 damage and spend to make your scatter exhaust.  Do you scatter?  You better, cause the next attack might spend the scatter again and discard it before you get to.  So one attack and you discard a token with Sloane, or without Sloane you have a fresh scatter and an exhausted brace.  Is it really that hard to see the utility?

I question why you think Sloane is supposed to work as an Intel Officer does, we have quite distinct wording already in game for Intel Officer, and yet they chose completely and utterly different wording on Sloane.

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1 minute ago, TheEasternKing said:

I question why you think Sloane is supposed to work as an Intel Officer does, we have quite distinct wording already in game for Intel Officer, and yet they chose completely and utterly different wording on Sloane.

I question why you think I am saying she is supposed to work as Intel Officer does, as I never said that, I just detailed specific examples of why Sloane doesn't suck when her ability works as Q has interpreted.

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