UPDATED!!!! - US Nationals at NoVa Open: Wave 6 Rulings

[BiggsIRL 6,717]

6 minutes ago, TaeSWXW said:

When are the two factions going to pick colors? Right now it's like watching a Bengals Vs. Browns game.

You mean it's horrible in every possible way and you know one side is going to screw up in a way previously not thought possible?

[TaeSWXW 755]

 

1 minute ago, BiggsIRL said:

You mean it's horrible in every possible way and you know one side is going to screw up in a way previously not thought possible?

Incepted.

Edited July 28, 2017 by TaeSWXW

[Madaghmire 7,274]

1 hour ago, BergerFett said:

As an outsider who doesn't know the marshal.  Making these decisions in closed groups, behind closed doors very well could lead to not the most honest of intentions.

It would not be the first time I've seen a TO rule opposite of what the rulebook says, and his buddy winds up having the perfect list on the day due to the new ruling.  **** happens, especially when big epeen is on the line.

First, Q wouldn't pull that.

Second, theres a signifcant period of time, after these rulings have been posted in a very public space, for everyone to adjust their list accordingly.

Finally, it sure sounds to me like Q had discussions with people who are under NDA's to come to this ruling, and so he can't tell anyone much else about it. But  its pretty fair to guess that if they played something a certain way during testing, then thats the way to rule it.

Personally, I disagree with ruling #1, but I mean, its hardly gamebreaking and there is plenty of lead time to adjust.

[IceQube MkII 694]

1 hour ago, BergerFett said:

@IceQube MkII i want to reiterate that my states are not personal (90%) and I will be the first one to buy you a beer at the end of the day because I know whats involved with running major events.

its just food for thought.

@BergerFett -  No problem.  As I said in my OP post, everyone is passionate about this game, including me, so reactions are natural and expected.

At this current moment in time, it is my understanding that this is how it's gonna be ruled at GenCon (North American Championships) and, personally, I want a consistent meta for the player base.  If there is a change from GenCon, I've got no problem changing my ruling.

That being said, I am only Marshalling at US Nats, so these rulings only apply to this premier event (that's why I can't speak for GenCon explicitly).  I am not unilaterally trying to change whatever, because I said so.  (Of course, I am empathetic that it sure "looks" this way.)

Overall, I want everyone coming to have a good time and hopefully have a positive experience.  A stable meta helps with that IMO.

 

[Geodes 111]

4 hours ago, IceQube MkII said:

Bold is what the rulings will be (at US Nats only until FFG puts out an updated FAQ).  All other stuff, including differing arguments, was to instill confidence that I did consider them.  I apologize for any confusion but I figured the community would appreciate the discussion --- instead of forcing "Commandments" upon everyone.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Greetings!  Recently, I have assumed the role of Marshal for this premier event. As such, I am the final authority on "in-game" rulings.  Any other questions, please contact the TO.

Note: In lieu of a new FAQ/Errata from FFG (subject to whatever effective date)...

OBJECTIVE:  To provide a STABLE environment as you prepare for Nationals.  (We understand that this event may be a significant expenditure of time, money, etc.)

This is a passionate community (as I am a part of) so these rulings were not done in a vacuum and I understand the seriousness of the decisions.  I've considered a lot of things, including talking with our interwebs RAW expert, consulting judges involved at Worlds (super thanks there!), etc... as well as my own expertise in playing at premier events.   These rulings apply to this event and this post is not up for debate and I'm just asking the community to "trust me" as I've done my due diligence.

As much as possible, for TRANSPARENCY, I'm including the thought process of some things considered... 

1. SLOANE

Summary:  If Sloane (attacking squadron) targets a defense token (turning green to red), then the defender may use that targeted token and discard to gain the corresponding defensive effect.  Yes, this is RAI as Sloane would be too powerful for her cost otherwise.

EX: Sloane targets a Scatter Ace turning scatter from green to red, the scatter may be used by the defender and discarded.

Sloane targets a Double Braces Ace turning a brace from green to red, that brace may be used by the defender and discarded or the other brace may be used as normal.

Actually, what he is saying is:  Thanks @DiabloAzul

1. When Sloane spends the scatter token, it just turns to red without producing an effect.
2. The defender can still spend (and discard) that red token to get its effect, in the same attack.

RAW (was considered but we are going RAI): 

Sloane: "It [Attacking Squadron] may... SPEND 1 of defender's defense token."

Rule1: P4 RRF "A defense token cannot be spent more than once during an attack." (So this part is clear. Whatever is targeted and spent by the attacking squadron can't be used and discarded. Personally, I'm against this but it's RAW.)

Rule2: P4 RRF "The defender cannot spend more than one defense token of EACH type per attack." (I read it as the Attacker spends a token where Rule1 applies; the Defender is free to spend any duplicate token as normal. If the wording was, "it may force the target to spend a specific token," then redundant defense tokens cannot be spent as the Defender would be breaking Rule2.)

CLARIFYING POINT: P4 RRF "Defense tokens can be spent by the DEFENDER DURING the "(4) Spend Defense Tokens" step of an attack to produce the EFFECTs.." Accuracies are used during the (3) Resolve Attack Effects.
(In normal language, this means if hit by Sloane - you don't get the effect of the token for defense.)

2. Task Force Antilles/Task Force Organa - these cards do not "stack."

"When YOU (the defending HH) suffer damage from an attack, YOU may choose and exhaust a copy of this card on another friendly ship..."
As per the RRG, Page 5, Effect Use and Timing: "A "when" effect occurs at the moment that the specified event occurs, AND CANNOT OCCUR AGAIN DURING THE INSTANCE OF THAT EVENT."

The entire confusion with BCC was because it was unclear whether the effect was triggered off the card or as a global effect, but TFA and TFO are an effect that "you" (the ship that the upgrade card is equipped to) trigger with a very clear rule set.
It is not other ships triggering an effect on you (like with BCC), it is you triggering an effect that happens to utilize other sships. 

 

 

Hello, after reading the many heated replies, I have a question as to why you used RAI for Sloane, but not for TFA.

I'm not questioning your right to make this call, and I am thankful you brought this up prior, but it seems contradictory to your method to pick and choose when to use RAI.

Consider from a point perspective: in order to get that extra damage point reduction, you are investing in another glass cannon, the title and upgrades to make it viable, and foregoing the points that could be invested elsewhere.

[Cutter9999 40]

Who is marshalling at GenCon?

 

[BergerFett 708]

10 minutes ago, IceQube MkII said:

@BergerFett -  No problem.  As I said in my OP post, everyone is passionate about this game, including me, so reactions are natural and expected.

At this current moment in time, it is my understanding that this is how it's gonna be ruled at GenCon (North American Championships) and, personally, I want a consistent meta for the player base.  If there is a change from GenCon, I've got no problem changing my ruling.

That being said, I am only Marshalling at US Nats, so these rulings only apply to this premier event (that's why I can't speak for GenCon explicitly).  I am not unilaterally trying to change whatever, because I said so.  (Of course, I am empathetic that it sure "looks" this way.)

Overall, I want everyone coming to have a good time and hopefully have a positive experience.  A stable meta helps with that IMO.

 

assuming all the marshals are in cahoots this is less bothersome as i understand meta coherency.  my counter argument is that RAW is pretty coherent. 

im still getting that shirt though

the other thing that does bother me is the interaction with phantoms and defenders and ships.

ships has 2 hp no hulls 1 brace, ECMs.  i roll accuracy + hit/crit or 2x damage.  Rulebook says sloan sloans and i kill the ship, your ruling effectively robs me of a kill.

there is a part of me that wants to see someone lose gencon/nova because of this ruling and see just how much the salt flows.  That is the danger with RAI.

you also are assuming 100% of event participants are on the forums.  I check the forums once maybe 2 weeks this could have easily been buried and i could have missed it where day of the event I would have been much less friendly and understanding regarding why you made this call.

it is what it is, im beating a dead horse, it just opens yourself up to way too many issues as a TO i feel.

Edited July 28, 2017 by BergerFett

[Ardaedhel 10,840]

Just now, BergerFett said:

ships has 2 hp no hulls 1 brace.  i roll accuracy + hit/crit or 2x damage.  Rulebook says sloan sloans and i kill the ship, your ruling effectively robs me of a kill.

Accuracy the brace instead. 

[BergerFett 708]

Just now, Ardaedhel said:

Accuracy the brace instead. 

i forgot to mention ECMs

with big jousters coming back i think they will over take blast doors

[BergerFett 708]

its an honest concern.

the change to sloan because aces are effected, effects how squadrons now interact with ships.  its a trickle down system that i honestly dont trust volunteers to handle as much as i trust the company to handle. 

my phantom/defender now needs 3 damage instead of 2 + accuracy to kill a ship that may win me the game.  the ruling you made, has directly decreased my odds of killing a ship because you were worried it was too strong against enemy squadrons.

[Undeadguy 5,749]

1 minute ago, BergerFett said:

i forgot to mention ECMs

with big jousters coming back i think they will over take blast doors

Could ECM work against a Sloane Acc? I know this was touched briefly, but I don't know the answer. 

[BergerFett 708]

1 minute ago, Undeadguy said:

Could ECM work against a Sloane Acc? I know this was touched briefly, but I don't know the answer. 

no, sloane does not target a defense token with an accuracy result she spends 1 accuracy to spend a token.  Thats RAW.

RAI it comes down to what the marshal thinks is good for the game.....

I am being a ****, yes but its to drive home my point.  this is the issue with RAI

[Ardaedhel 10,840]

Just now, Undeadguy said:

Could ECM work against a Sloane Acc? I know this was touched briefly, but I don't know the answer. 

If you just choose to use it as an acc (as in that example), yes.

In the context of Sloane's ability, I seem to recall a discussion over in the rules forum on it but I can't seem to find it.  I would say you probably actually can, as written, but it depends on whether Sloane's ability is targeting a token, which is... slightly ambiguous, since she doesn't actually use that terminology:

 

 

[BergerFett 708]

i would argue no.

dice spending happens during the dice manipulation step.

you reserve accuracy results differently.

also once the dice is spent does it still exist?  is it still an accuracy result?

You are not targeting a defense token with an accuracy result you are spending a dice and targeting a defense token with sloane.

[Onidsen 571]

2 minutes ago, BergerFett said:

i would argue no.

dice spending happens during the dice manipulation step.

you reserve accuracy results differently.

also once the dice is spent does it still exist?  is it still an accuracy result?

You are not targeting a defense token with an accuracy result you are spending a dice and targeting a defense token with sloane.

Just to note - in order to target a defense token with an accuracy result, you have to spend the dice. It's often overlooked, but it's right there in the rulebook.

"The attacker can spend one or more of its (accuracy) icons to choose the same number of the defender’s defense tokens. The chosen tokens cannot be spent during this attack."

And it happens at the same timing as any other dice manipulation

Edited July 28, 2017 by Onidsen

[GiledPallaeon 2,873]

On 7/28/2017 at 1:06 PM, BergerFett said:

assuming all the marshals are in cahoots this is less bothersome as i understand meta coherency.  my counter argument is that RAW is pretty coherent. 

im still getting that shirt though

the other thing that does bother me is the interaction with phantoms and defenders and ships.

ships has 2 hp no hulls 1 brace, ECMs.  i roll accuracy + hit/crit or 2x damage.  Rulebook says sloan sloans and i kill the ship, your ruling effectively robs me of a kill.

there is a part of me that wants to see someone lose gencon/nova because of this ruling and see just how much the salt flows.  That is the danger with RAI.

you also are assuming 100% of event participants are on the forums.  I check the forums once maybe 2 weeks this could have easily been buried and i could have missed it where day of the event I would have been much less friendly and understanding regarding why you made this call.

it is what it is, im beating a dead horse, it just opens yourself up to way too many issues as a TO i feel.

That is an edge case, literally. Your Phantom, of which is the only one that could possibly earn the kill for the rest of the game, excepting Sloane and the ECM involved, has to roll a 1/64 shot to get the double and the acc. Double plus a hit, crit, or another double (back of napkin figures) is a 1/16ish shot. I understand that you're frustrated, that you disagree with @IceQube MkII's ruling, that you feel that FFG is not properly supporting the game you and the rest of us love, and that you're concerned your list is no longer competitive, despite the significant personal funds you have spent to field the list and to field it at NOVA. All that said, I have to agree with @BiggsIRL this hill to die on, for both of you, is mountains out of anthills.

The discussion about whether or not questioning a marshal has also been, ahh, heated. May I ask, since questioning can have a loaded connotation, if you mean that you are going to discuss the ruling with judge/marshal/TO how they came to their ruling to better everyone's understanding thereof, please say discuss. It would make a lot of tempers cool off some I think.

Edited July 30, 2017 by GiledPallaeon
Correcting my probabilities

[Undeadguy 5,749]

7 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

If you just choose to use it as an acc (as in that example), yes.

In the context of Sloane's ability, I seem to recall a discussion over in the rules forum on it but I can't seem to find it.  I would say you probably actually can, as written, but it depends on whether Sloane's ability is targeting a token, which is... slightly ambiguous, since she doesn't actually use that terminology:

 

 

I remember reading about it but I think it was dropped because it only matters with Maarek and Phantoms. 

[BergerFett 708]

Just now, Onidsen said:

Just to note - in order to target a defense token with an accuracy result, you have to spend the dice. It's often overlooked, but it's right there in the rulebook.

"The attacker can spend one or more of its (accuracy) icons to choose the same number of the defender’s defense tokens. The chosen tokens cannot be spent during this attack."

fair nuff.  i dont have the rulebook handy right now.

The accuracy result states "the chosen tokens cannot be spent during this attack"

sloane states "choose and spend one of the defenders defense tokens"

ecm says "spend one defense token targeted by an opponents accuracy result"

 accuracy result =/= sloane

[Blinkus Maximus 132]

Looking at it, I have to agree with OP's decision.

I'm not an expert on rules or anything, but the wording of Sloane seems to me to be presented as a choice for the attacker:

A) keep the accuracy the way it always has been, and they can't use that token.

Or B) use Sloane to spend the token, but it is still able to be used if it was only exhausted.

I feel like it was intended to be a way for a squad to flip off annoying aces and ships and instead of letting them discard their exhausted defense token but still live, make it go away before they get the chance and punch them in the junk. Or if it's just exhausted after the effect, force the defender to choose between taking damage now and saving the token, or losing it and risking that screwing them later.

Just my haypenny of input.

[IceQube MkII 694]

28 minutes ago, Geodes said:

 

Hello, after reading the many heated replies, I have a question as to why you used RAI for Sloane, but not for TFA.

I'm not questioning your right to make this call, and I am thankful you brought this up prior, but it seems contradictory to your method to pick and choose when to use RAI.

Consider from a point perspective: in order to get that extra damage point reduction, you are investing in another glass cannon, the title and upgrades to make it viable, and foregoing the points that could be invested elsewhere.

@Geodes... based on my knowledge, the answer to your specific question... for TFA, RAW is also RAI.

[Ardaedhel 10,840]

Just now, BergerFett said:

 accuracy result =/= sloane

Yeah, on rereading I think you're right.  I kind of went back and forth on this one:

1. No, of course ECM doesn't apply because it's for freeing defense tokens denied by accuracy and the Sloane interaction is based on the RRG, not card text.

2. Wait, yes, it works, because the wording on ECM is actually more permissive than that (it only has to be "targeted by an opponents accuracy result," and would supersede the RRG's restriction anyway.

3. Wait wait, no, because even if Sloane's ability is "targeting" the token (which, it's not worded such), it's not the accuracy result that's targeting the token, it's Sloane herself. 

So, yeah, I agree with Berger, ECM doesn't allow you to use the token after it's been Sloaned. 

This is, of course, all assuming you're using the strict RAW interpretation and is therefore kind of academic in the context of US Nationals anyway.

[Ardaedhel 10,840]

Just now, IceQube MkII said:

@Geodes... based on my knowledge, the answer to your specific question... for TFA, RAW is also RAI.

I agree with you here.  The only question on that one was whether each point of damage triggered the title separately or whether taking any damage at all counted as the single trigger for that attack, and there were a few counterexamples made in the original thread on this one (Biggs and Bright Hope, as I recall) that demonstrated that it must be the latter. 

This ruling has nothing whatsoever to do with BCC or TS, because it's one card providing the trigger, not multiple simultaneously.  The title on the ship that is taking damage allows that ship to "choose and exhaust a copy of this card on another friendly ship..." yadda yadda.  It is not the titles on the surrounding ships that are triggering.

Edited July 28, 2017 by Ardaedhel

[BergerFett 708]

4 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Yeah, on rereading I think you're right.  I kind of went back and forth on this one:

1. No, of course ECM doesn't apply because it's for freeing defense tokens denied by accuracy and the Sloane interaction is based on the RRG, not card text.

2. Wait, yes, it works, because the wording on ECM is actually more permissive than that (it only has to be "targeted by an opponents accuracy result," and would supersede the RRG's restriction anyway.

3. Wait wait, no, because even if Sloane's ability is "targeting" the token (which, it's not worded such), it's not the accuracy result that's targeting the token, it's Sloane herself. 

So, yeah, I agree with Berger, ECM doesn't allow you to use the token after it's been Sloaned. 

This is, of course, all assuming you're using the strict RAW interpretation and is therefore kind of academic in the context of US Nationals anyway.

rules are hard.... seriously, and it takes some thought trying to break down sentence structure and stuff to really figure out what it says.

that's pretty much the same process i went through.

[GalacticFist 202]

4 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

The only question on that one was whether each point of damage triggered the title separately or whether taking any damage at all counted as the single trigger for that attack, and there were a few counterexamples made in the original thread on this one (Biggs and Bright Hope, as I recall) that demonstrated that it must be the latter.

Wait what? Biggs and Bright Hope are totally different from TFA. TFA says when, and the other two say before. Unless I am misunderstanding what you meant. Since it says "when you suffer damage" the damage is taken one at a time, triggering the title for each damage point. The "before X suffers damage" applies before the damage is taken one at a time and is still considered a sum. At least that's how I understood it.

[Darthain 1,747]

11 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Yeah, on rereading I think you're right.  I kind of went back and forth on this one:

1. No, of course ECM doesn't apply because it's for freeing defense tokens denied by accuracy and the Sloane interaction is based on the RRG, not card text.

2. Wait, yes, it works, because the wording on ECM is actually more permissive than that (it only has to be "targeted by an opponents accuracy result," and would supersede the RRG's restriction anyway.

3. Wait wait, no, because even if Sloane's ability is "targeting" the token (which, it's not worded such), it's not the accuracy result that's targeting the token, it's Sloane herself. 

So, yeah, I agree with Berger, ECM doesn't allow you to use the token after it's been Sloaned. 

This is, of course, all assuming you're using the strict RAW interpretation and is therefore kind of academic in the context of US Nationals anyway.

You can go one simpler.  ECM overrides accuracy preventing a token from being spend, but it does not allow a token to be spent twice in an attack, and that token has already been spent.  Although your rederrick is cohesive with the ruling presented here.