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IceQube MkII

UPDATED!!!! - US Nationals at NoVa Open: Wave 6 Rulings

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Bold is what the rulings will be (at US Nats only until FFG puts out an updated FAQ).  All other stuff, including differing arguments, was to instill confidence that I did consider them.  I apologize for any confusion but I figured the community would appreciate the discussion --- instead of forcing "Commandments" upon everyone.

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Greetings!  Recently, I have assumed the role of Marshal for this premier event. As such, I am the final authority on "in-game" rulings.  Any other questions, please contact the TO.

Note: In lieu of a new FAQ/Errata from FFG (subject to whatever effective date)...

OBJECTIVE:  To provide a STABLE environment as you prepare for Nationals.  (We understand that this event may be a significant expenditure of time, money, etc.)

This is a passionate community (as I am a part of) so these rulings were not done in a vacuum and I understand the seriousness of the decisions.  I've considered a lot of things, including talking with our interwebs RAW expert, consulting judges involved at Worlds (super thanks there!), etc... as well as my own expertise in playing at premier events.   These rulings apply to this event and this post is not up for debate and I'm just asking the community to "trust me" as I've done my due diligence.

As much as possible, for TRANSPARENCY, I'm including the thought process of some things considered... 

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1. SLOANE 

8-4-17  UPDATE (from Developer)!!!!:  "A squadron forces the defender to spend a Defense token, and the Defender does not gain the advantage of the defense token having been spent.  Furthermore, the Defender CANNOT spend the token themselves (now discarding it) for the effect, because the token has already been spent."

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At the time of my original call, it was my belief (based on other info and advised) that Sloane was gonna be called that way (as RAI) at GenCon.  I would make the same decision at that moment in time.  Well, at least, the controversy got us an answer now. Nationals will mirror GenCon!  In retrospect, I guess I should've have waited until after GenCon.  But hey, I was being proactive!

Summary:  If Sloane (attacking squadron) targets a defense token (turning green to red), then the defender may use that targeted token and discard to gain the corresponding defensive effect.  Yes, this is RAI as Sloane would be too powerful for her cost otherwise.

EX: Sloane targets a Scatter Ace turning scatter from green to red, the scatter may be used by the defender and discarded.

Sloane targets a Double Braces Ace turning a brace from green to red, that brace may be used by the defender and discarded or the other brace may be used as normal.

Actually, what he is saying is:  Thanks @DiabloAzul

  1. When Sloane spends the scatter token, it just turns to red without producing an effect.
  2. The defender can still spend (and discard) that red token to get its effect, in the same attack.

RAW (was considered but we are going RAI): 

Sloane: "It [Attacking Squadron] may... SPEND 1 of defender's defense token."

Rule1: P4 RRF "A defense token cannot be spent more than once during an attack." (So this part is clear. Whatever is targeted and spent by the attacking squadron can't be used and discarded. Personally, I'm against this but it's RAW.)

Rule2: P4 RRF "The defender cannot spend more than one defense token of EACH type per attack." (I read it as the Attacker spends a token where Rule1 applies; the Defender is free to spend any duplicate token as normal. If the wording was, "it may force the target to spend a specific token," then redundant defense tokens cannot be spent as the Defender would be breaking Rule2.)

CLARIFYING POINT: P4 RRF "Defense tokens can be spent by the DEFENDER DURING the "(4) Spend Defense Tokens" step of an attack to produce the EFFECTs.." Accuracies are used during the (3) Resolve Attack Effects.
(In normal language, this means if hit by Sloane - you don't get the effect of the token for defense.)

2. Task Force Antilles/Task Force Organa - these cards do not "stack."

"When YOU (the defending HH) suffer damage from an attack, YOU may choose and exhaust a copy of this card on another friendly ship..."
As per the RRG, Page 5, Effect Use and Timing: "A "when" effect occurs at the moment that the specified event occurs, AND CANNOT OCCUR AGAIN DURING THE INSTANCE OF THAT EVENT."

The entire confusion with BCC was because it was unclear whether the effect was triggered off the card or as a global effect, but TFA and TFO are an effect that "you" (the ship that the upgrade card is equipped to) trigger with a very clear rule set.
It is not other ships triggering an effect on you (like with BCC), it is you triggering an effect that happens to utilize other ships.

(Yes, I am aware of the preview articles; however, I surmise that is done by marketing teams and not the design teams.)

3.  Rieekan (Errata'd) - Rieekan player gets to decide when to use his ability

Omission of "must" as a qualifier, it does fall under optional card use; and if it were meant as "The FIRST ship or Unique Squadron..." FFG would have said that.
Furthermore, it does make it more engaging to play as Rieekan because the Rieekan player gets to make more decisions vs. just an automatic/passive decision.
 
4. Commander Leia  (Dial, Token or Dial+Token)
You can't spend two tokens of the same type because the rules say you can spend "a command dial" or "a command token" or "a command dial and a command token." 

"A command token" means "singular command token." So with Leia, she resolves the dial with a token, which means you can't spend another token because the only three options are "dial," "token," or "dial+token." 
 
Explicitly, there is no instance of "token+token."
 
Please share the good word!  Thanks again for all those that debated with me to help me come to these conclusions.  If you make it to DC for US Nationals, please say "hi" and I hope you have a fun experience and I appreciate you attending the NoVa Open!
Edited by IceQube MkII

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Just now, jamie nasmyth said:

Does any one know how these will be interpreted for Gencon? 

Typically there is a large presence of FFG staff including some of the Developers there and I am confident they will make similar rulings.

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19 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:

I can't say I agree with rulings #1 or #2, but I do applaud your choice to announce and clarify the rulings beforehand.

Exactly, it is good you are broadcasting your rulings, even if #1 is directly in contrast with the RRG (and thereby incorrect, the scatter ace cannot spend the token Sloane spent).

#2 is trickier, but I still do not believe TFA os intended as 1 use (on such a fragile ship makes it useless) as damage is suffered 1 at a time (ergo many use as multiple instances)

Edited by Darthain

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@Darthain  I made the same assumption but if you read the very last sentence of that item you will realize that he is saying that the Scatter Ace cannot spend the token.

"(In normal language, this means if hit by Sloane - you don't get the effect of the token for defense.)"

Edited by Overdawg

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3 minutes ago, Overdawg said:

@Darthain  I made the same assumption but if you read the very last sentence of that item you will realize that he is saying that the Scatter Ace cannot spend the token.

"(In normal language, this means if hit by Sloane - you don't get the effect of the token for defense.)"

Yeah. But he put that under the RAW section. And he stated that he is not going by RAW on that ruling.

At least, that's how I read it. It is a bit unclear because he gave both sides of the argument in the same post.

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26 minutes ago, Overdawg said:

Typically there is a large presence of FFG staff including some of the Developers there and I am confident they will make similar rulings.

@jamie nasmyth - I don't want to explicitly extrapolate, but the Force is Strong... these rulings were not made in a vacuum.  As a player base, consistency is important!

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5 minutes ago, Overdawg said:

@Darthain  I made the same assumption but if you read the very last sentence of that item you will realize that he is saying that the Scatter Ace cannot spend the token.

"(In normal language, this means if hit by Sloane - you don't get the effect of the token for defense.)"

Actually, what he is saying is:

  1. When Sloane spends the scatter token, it just turns to red without producing an effect.
  2. The defender can still spend (and discard) that red token to get its effect, in the same attack.

 

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not sure i 100% agree with the double brace situation but I get it. 

The rest of it looks good.

Thanks for posting this.

 

edit: wait.  If i sloan a scatter my opponent can still scatter the attack by discarding the scatter token? even though this is against RAW.

Edited by BergerFett

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5 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:

Actually, what he is saying is:

  1. When Sloane spends the scatter token, it just turns to red without producing an effect.
  2. The defender can still spend (and discard) that red token to get its effect, in the same attack.

 

This is absolutely 100% what I'm saying.

Trust me, this discussion was debated for hours.

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Just now, IceQube MkII said:

This is absolutely 100% what I'm saying.

Trust me, this discussion was debated for hours.

honestly... and no offense... this is some bull.

the RAW are clear and unless that discussion that was debated for hours is posted so i can read the entire transcript, I will continue to call it bull.

RAW are RAW.  RAI is a dangerous place. 

The double brace ruling I do not like but I get it, as it says attacker and defender.  The first ruling is pretty cut and dry (RAW) if you ask me and ruling otherwise is just an attempt to balance some you perceive to be "too good". 

You RAI for the first part and then RAW for the second part?  Where should my confidence be as a player in this event for the rulings you haven't listed.  If i call you over during a game can I expect RAI or RAW because right now there is no clear precedence.  pick one, RAI or RAW, whether you personally agree or disagree with the ruling, having a clear precedence for rulings will make you event run better.  This is coming from someone who has run 180person Warmachine/Horde tournaments for 3 years in a row at their equivalent of nationals.  Did I agree with every call I made?  nope.  Every call was RAW and everyone knew it would be RAW from the start.

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The rulebook was written before Sloane existed, i.e. before there was a way for anyone other than a defender could spend tokens.  There have been plenty of past instances where FFG released something that had an unintended rule interaction that was clarified later for balancing purposes.  This is just the latest and greatest.  I personally think Sloane would essentially make aces unplayable if the defender wasn't allowed to use the scatter that Sloane spent.  At the SC I took her to I definitely let my opponent spend his exhausted tokens because it felt extremely cheap to deny the token use from Sloane's points-effectiveness perspective, RAW or not.  If Sloane had been 40 points I'd be on the other side of the argument.

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6 minutes ago, Caldias said:

The rulebook was written before Sloane existed, i.e. before there was a way for anyone other than a defender could spend tokens.  There have been plenty of past instances where FFG released something that had an unintended rule interaction that was clarified later for balancing purposes.  This is just the latest and greatest.  I personally think Sloane would essentially make aces unplayable if the defender wasn't allowed to use the scatter that Sloane spent.  At the SC I took her to I definitely let my opponent spend his exhausted tokens because it felt extremely cheap to deny the token use from Sloane's points-effectiveness perspective, RAW or not.  If Sloane had been 40 points I'd be on the other side of the argument.

Sloane may be improperly costed or even too powerful. But that's up to FFG to correct in an FAQ or eratta.

A TO deciding to ignore RAW in favor of a personal opinion of balance is a slippery slope. 

Perhaps the "not in a vacuum" comment means that this TO has it on solid authority that such an FAQ is going to be published before the tournament. If so, then all is cool. If not, then it is a slight overstepping of authority.

Edited by Democratus

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3 minutes ago, Caldias said:

The rulebook was written before Sloane existed, i.e. before there was a way for anyone other than a defender could spend tokens.  There have been plenty of past instances where FFG released something that had an unintended rule interaction that was clarified later for balancing purposes.  This is just the latest and greatest.  I personally think Sloane would essentially make aces unplayable if the defender wasn't allowed to use the scatter that Sloane spent.  At the SC I took her to I definitely let my opponent spend his exhausted tokens because it felt extremely cheap to deny the token use from Sloane's points-effectiveness perspective, RAW or not.  If Sloane had been 40 points I'd be on the other side of the argument.

this is not up to you or me or the head judge to decide.

That is up to FFG to decide.  If you want to handicap yourself because you feel dirty playing the cards as RAW then that is on you.  I am going to nationals, spending hundreds of dollars to compete, and the list I have been practicing just got **** all over.  On top of that, their is no clear direction on which way the head judge will rule, so now I have to really decide if i want to call a judge over or not because if they feel that the current whatever is broken they could rule against my favor DESPITE but the rulebook says.

 

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26 minutes ago, BergerFett said:

not sure i 100% agree with the double brace situation but I get it. 

The rest of it looks good.

Thanks for posting this.

 

edit: wait.  If i sloan a scatter my opponent can still scatter the attack by discarding the scatter token? even though this is against RAW.

Exactly, and in a situation with that ruling you just accuracy the scatter per normal, and have next to no effect on the outcome (it will be the same regardless of Sloane, despite this ruling against the RRG/RAW).   The effect of that ability is so overblown it is amazing, so often confused with the strength of a good imp alpha strike it questions my ability of players to parse the actual root effects.

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4 minutes ago, BergerFett said:

this is not up to you or me or the head judge to decide.

That is up to FFG to decide.  If you want to handicap yourself because you feel dirty playing the cards as RAW then that is on you.  I am going to nationals, spending hundreds of dollars to compete, and the list I have been practicing just got **** all over.  On top of that, their is no clear direction on which way the head judge will rule, so now I have to really decide if i want to call a judge over or not because if they feel that the current whatever is broken they could rule against my favor DESPITE but the rulebook says.

 

I'm pretty sure it is up to the Marshall to decide. If players have a question, which a lot of us did, the Marshall has to supply the answer. We now have an answer. I'm sure FFG was contacted about this ruling, so it's now up to FFG to step and tell us how Sloane is meant to be used.

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Just now, BergerFett said:

this is not up to you or me or the head judge to decide.

That is up to FFG to decide.  If you want to handicap yourself because you feel dirty playing the cards as RAW then that is on you.  I am going to nationals, spending hundreds of dollars to compete, and the list I have been practicing just got **** all over.  On top of that, their is no clear direction on which way the head judge will rule, so now I have to really decide if i want to call a judge over or not because if they feel that the current whatever is broken they could rule against my favor DESPITE but the rulebook says.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Democratus said:

Sloane may be improperly costed or even too powerful. But that's up to FFG to correct in an FAQ or eratta.

A TO deciding to ignore RAW in favor of a personal opinion of balance is a slippery slope. 

Perhaps the "not in a vacuum" comment means that this TO has it on solid authority that such an FAQ is going to be published before the tournament. If so, then all is cool. If not, then it is a slight overstepping of authority.

I think this is melodramatic.  The marshall here is giving his interpretation on three points of contention with the new wave's release and is doing so over a month before the event.  Using this as some platform to question his authority as a rules enforcer is a bit much.

Before this, by the way, the original ruling by a different organizer of this event was that if Sloane spent the token, the Sloane spend produced the defense effect, which was also supported by RAW.

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2 minutes ago, Darthain said:

Exactly, and in a situation with that ruling you just accuracy the scatter per normal, and have next to no effect on the outcome (it will be the same regardless of Sloane, despite this ruling against the RRG/RAW).   The effect of that ability is so overblown it is amazing, so often confused with the strength of a good imp alpha strike it questions my ability of players to parse the actual root effects.

while you are correct, it stops me from potentially stipping the scatter all together with 2 squadrons and still doing some damage.

gallant haven, jan orrs, biggs ball is coming back, at least in my better, thanks to the rhymer nerf.  Sloane was a great way to get some damage in even if only 2, and still scatter.  These rulings while I understand bullet point 2, directly hamper sloans, actually any imperials ability to deal with this.  INTs at 6 blue dice with 6 hits, will still get thier **** braced to 3, GH'd to 2 and then biggs shunted to 1.... the best fighter alpha strike in the game cant ******* touch this.

Yes its a game of skill and strategy and you will need to think outside the box but the fact that this is RAI (rules as intended) and then the justification of RAW (rules as written) for rieekan is actually the part that pisses me off

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Just now, Caldias said:

 

I think this is melodramatic.  The marshall here is giving his interpretation on three points of contention with the new wave's release and is doing so over a month before the event.  Using this as some platform to question his authority as a rules enforcer is a bit much.

Before this, by the way, the original ruling by a different organizer of this event was that if Sloane spent the token, the Sloane spend produced the defense effect, which was also supported by RAW.

that was also wrong and also bull.

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