Jump to content
xanderf

Problem: (most) large ships need a nerf, and all are too maneuverable vs fighters. Solution: make them move first

Recommended Posts

Once against tilting at the windmills of 'lore fails' in the game...

Man, large-base ships are way too maneuverable and responsive compared to TIE Fighters.  Even the vaunted Millennium Falcon, in the movies, had TIE Fighters (literally) flying circles around it.  This just never happens in this game, where large-base ships are zipping around the table and pouncing on small-base ships from behind.  (Don't even get me started on Pt+EU Dash)

What if we just had two 'move+action' phases?  Large ships move in PS order, like any other ship, but in a distinct phase before the small-base ships.  IE., all large ships move+action first...then once all large ships have moved+actioned in order, the small-base ships move+action in order.  Combat doesn't change. 

(FWIW, this also has precedent - this is exactly how 'huge' ships are already handled.  Playing in Epic, the game adds a distinct 'huge ship move+action' phase distinct from everyone else.  The suggestion, here, would be to implement the same rule for 'large' base ships as 'huge' ships already use, just before rather than after.)

Thoughts?

Edited by xanderf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, xanderf said:

(FWIW, this also has precedent - this is exactly how 'huge' ships are already handled.  Playing in Epic, the game adds a distinct 'huge ship move+action' phase before everyone else, and all huge ships move+action in PS order before other ships do.  The suggestion, here, would be to implement the same rule for 'large' base ships as 'huge' ships already use.)

This is actually backwards.  Huge Ships move after all small and large ships.  I'm fairly certain this is because a Huge Ship can kill a smaller ship by running over it and the designers didn't want to give Huge Ships the ability to plot one move and destroy a small ship without giving that ship the option to move first.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Kalandros said:

I somewhat agree, I think Engine Upgrade should be Small Ship only.

While that would be *really* nice - and I think most people agree strongly with that change - it cannot happen.  Engine Upgrade only comes with two different ships - and both are 'large' bases.  FFG doesn't release expansions that include upgrade cards they cannot use.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, joeshmoe554 said:

This is actually backwards.  Huge Ships move after all small and large ships.  I'm fairly certain this is because a Huge Ship can kill a smaller ship by running over it and the designers didn't want to give Huge Ships the ability to plot one move and destroy a small ship without giving that ship the option to move first.

Right, edited.  We've played it both ways, forgot which way the official rule went.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Huh.  Interesting.  I can't really think of any reason that this would break the (100/6 competitive) game.  It would obviously be a nerf to arc dodging large base ships, but I don't know if anyone agrees that large base ships *should* be arc dodgers, with the potential exception of the IG-2000 (which is borderline small ship).  It does seem a bit overpowered though that a PS1 Academy can react to a PS11 Han Solo.  Perhaps it should be something about "during activation, activate at half of your pilot skill (rounded up)."  That way a PS9 Han still moves after a PS4 Black Squadron, but a PS7 Jake Farrell can hunt him down like there's nothing to it... Interesting...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, joeshmoe554 said:

This is actually backwards.  Huge Ships move after all small and large ships.  I'm fairly certain this is because a Huge Ship can kill a smaller ship by running over it and the designers didn't want to give Huge Ships the ability to plot one move and destroy a small ship without giving that ship the option to move first.

:ph34r: :lol:

Having huge ships move last is also amazing with the Gozanti and undocking - your PS1 TIEs can end up being the last thing that moves and you get to pick your dial when undocking.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Khyros said:

Huh.  Interesting.  I can't really think of any reason that this would break the (100/6 competitive) game.  It would obviously be a nerf to arc dodging large base ships, but I don't know if anyone agrees that large base ships *should* be arc dodgers, with the potential exception of the IG-2000 (which is borderline small ship).  It does seem a bit overpowered though that a PS1 Academy can react to a PS11 Han Solo.  Perhaps it should be something about "during activation, activate at half of your pilot skill (rounded up)."  That way a PS9 Han still moves after a PS4 Black Squadron, but a PS7 Jake Farrell can hunt him down like there's nothing to it... Interesting...

PS11 Solo still shoots first, though - so while the PS1 Academy is able to maneuver in reaction to the PS11 Falcon, true...

I mean, it's a friggin' tiny little TIE Fighter maneuvering in relation to a gigantic freighter!  Yes, it should be able to react to that.  (Lore-wise, IMHO)

Bonus: Solo in the PS11 Falcon can now force PS1 Academy pilots to 'bump' and crash into each other.  Which, if you were to describe the one way we saw in the movies that the Falcon did seem to have a maneuver 'advantage' over the TIEs..."forcing them to bump" sounds about right...

AsteroidField.jpg

;)

Edited by xanderf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, xanderf said:

What if we just had two 'move+action' phases?  Large ships move in PS order, like any other ship, but in a distinct phase before the small-base ships.  IE., all large ships move+action first...then once all large ships have moved+actioned in order, the small-base ships move+action in order.  Combat doesn't change. 

Ok now I'm over the huge ship thing...

This would not hurt primary/secondary turret ships too much but really hurt those with arcs which are mostly Imperial.  It would also hurt Oicunn.

Doing this would be a huge boon for large ship bumping and anti-pursuit laser and the like.  Contracted Scouts would love this.  PS1 Academy bumping into Han as he moved in the way doesn't seem right.

So I don't think it's a goer in the current game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i feel like the only people that would actually suffer from this are in a bad spot as it is (or borderline bad spot)
The ones that have turrets would largely not care, except the few that also tote around ordnance (which largely isnt mandatory for the build except contracted scouts, and they move first anyway in most cases). Meanwhile the large ships w/o a turret would hurt badly, and they already hurt. 

How many large ships do you see w/o a turret primary or turret upgrade slot? Upsilon shuttle, party bus, or the rare IG88 ship...thats it. They and the ones you almost never see would become even weaker, while the real problems just go "there was a nerf?"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

i feel like the only people that would actually suffer from this are in a bad spot as it is (or borderline bad spot)
The ones that have turrets would largely not care, except the few that also tote around ordnance (which largely isnt mandatory for the build except contracted scouts, and they move first anyway in most cases). Meanwhile the large ships w/o a turret would hurt badly, and they already hurt. 

How many large ships do you see w/o a turret primary or turret upgrade slot? Upsilon shuttle, party bus, or the rare IG88 ship...thats it. They and the ones you almost never see would become even weaker, while the real problems just go "there was a nerf?"

The issue isn't so much denying the large ship their shot - there really is little impact on that.  (And I disagree with your conclusion, anyway - for large-base ships with fire arcs that have no repositioning ability, this does nothing at all.  If a party bus guessed wrong as to what was going to be in-arc, how does it matter any more if they had to move first or last?  They can't reposition either way...)

What it DOES do is deny large ships that CAN reposition the ability to do so in a way that 'outmaneuvers' a fighter.  A YT-2400 should not, under any circumstances, be able to 'outmaneuver' around a TIE Interceptor and get the drop on it from behind - even a right-from-the-Academy pilot.  Freighter.  High-speed Interceptor.  No.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

i feel like the only people that would actually suffer from this are in a bad spot as it is (or borderline bad spot)
The ones that have turrets would largely not care, except the few that also tote around ordnance (which largely isnt mandatory for the build except contracted scouts, and they move first anyway in most cases). Meanwhile the large ships w/o a turret would hurt badly, and they already hurt.-

I'm not buying this argument.  Look at arc-dodging Dash, or Dengar, or Rey for that matter.  Large ships with Barrel Roll and/or Engine Upgrade can make incredibly effective arc dodgers, especially when moving last.  Dash's power level would drop significantly if he had to move before small based ships.  And ships with Autothrusters would find it much easier to dodge a turret's primary firing arc.

4 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

How many large ships do you see w/o a turret primary or turret upgrade slot? Upsilon shuttle, party bus, or the rare IG88 ship...thats it. They and the ones you almost never see would become even weaker, while the real problems just go "there was a nerf?"

And of those ships, how often do you see high PS pilots used?  Kylo Ren, Yorr and Kagi are more often used for their abilities than their PS value.  The Lambda and Upsilon's generics see plenty of table time, as does the Trandoshan Slaver, so they're likely to be the least bothered by this proposal as they usually move first anyway.  Brobots wouldn't like it though, I'll agree there.

58 minutes ago, Sasajak said:

This would not hurt primary/secondary turret ships too much but really hurt those with arcs which are mostly Imperial.  It would also hurt Oicunn.

Again, that's not my reading of the idea.  And why would Oicunn care?  If anything, he'd profit, as no small based ships would be able to get out of the way before he moved.

...as you can probably gather, I'm in favour of this proposal.  It's actually quite elegant.  Barring exceptional circumstances, small ships should be more nimble and able to outmaneuver freighters and transports, not the other way around.  Throughout the film series we see the Falcon chased and hounded by smaller ships which dart around it like flies.

At the very least, I think it's work testing out in a few practice games to see what kind of effect it has.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gen 4-5 Fighters range from 11 - 23+m in length.  An X-wing is 12? and the falcon 30?  Lore / real science (in SW!!?!?!?!?) supports them moving just as, if not faster, than 'fighters'.  Its the distance traveled from the base size that skews things for game play.

I liked best the suggestion that the strait boost should be like the barrel roll, template turned sideways.  And the softs be placed to the left or right of the guides (depending on direction) to shorten the distance moved.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

Brobots wouldn't like it though, I'll agree there.
 

I'm not sure it's that hard on Brobots, either - at PS6 (max PS8), they haven't exactly been arc-dodging masters to begin with.  And 'moving first' basically guarantees that IG-88C can get his ability off with vastly reduced risk of being blocked.  So...it even helps, in a small way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The solution is large ship maneuver templates AND small ship maneuver templates that are different sizes and angles. Some one who is a better engineer than me would have to come up with the exact measurements to both to make it work.

Edited by Jadotch

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

And why would Oicunn care?

Yeah I thought on it Oicunn probably wouldn't be bothered.

1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

small ships should be more nimble and able to outmaneuver freighters and transports

Absolutely - so a large ship shouldn't be able to block a small ship which this idea would encourage.  

Huge ships moving last works for number of reasons.  They have highly limited and restricted very slow dials that can be predicted.  They also don't care about bumping - they still get their action and in fact may want to bump to wipe ships off the table.  Finally enemy repositioning is less critical due to all the above and their big base size.   I suppose what I'm getting at is if someone wants to try and rebalance large ships it needs more than a large ships move first approach.  New dials and new rules would be very welcome.  I mean I can't get my head around why a small ship touching a large one can't fire at it... if it's in arc shot the thing!  I suppose it's to discourage lazy flying (but then why turrets in their current form?).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Kalandros said:

I somewhat agree, I think Engine Upgrade should be Small Ship only. But making them move before anyone else is not a good solution.

EU should have been the Millennium Falcon title.

Large ships shouldn't have 1-hard maneuvers, in my opinion.  And a more elegant fix is to move via rear-to-rear templates, but that's a complete game overhaul.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...