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Was the last clause on Lightweight Frame necessary?

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Lightweight Frame

TIE only.

When defending, after rolling defense dice, if there are more attack dice than defense dice, roll 1 additional defense die.

You cannot equip this card if your agility value is "3" or higher.

 

Lightweight Frame is a great tool for low agility ships. However, the modification has diminishing returns. Was the last clause really needed for balance? Personally, without that clause, I think it would have added a useful tool to agility 3 Imperial TIEs without being auto-include. While it would not activate often, it would help provide protection from alpha strikes which currently discourage the use of low HP ships. I, for one, am no longer including TIE Fighters or TIE Interceptors in my lists, as there are too many lists that can remove them in one volley. Would removing the limitation on Lightweight Frame address that issue and help reintroduce these ships into the meta?

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19 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Less green dice, the better imo 

Given your call sign, your opinion does not surprise me. ;) 

16 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

Yes.

...and keep the red dice from going nuts would be good too.

With the introduction of more ships with 4 attack and new missiles, I fear it is too late for that.

13 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Honestly, the dice system in Xwing is really stupidly skewed to the point that adding one more die can catapult a ships power

There isn't much room to limit anything apart from not aggressively undercosting jumps 

 

Needs armada dice and tokens 

From the limited amount that I have played Armada , it looks like it has the better game engine. However, I am personally, too invested in X-Wing to switch over. Given the dice that X Wing has, Lightweight Frame is a great card. It adds dice, but only if your opponent has more red dice than you. Unfortunately, 3 agility is the main advantage that TIE Fighters and TIE Interceptors have. Due to the power creep that has entered the game, that is not enough.

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3 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

LWF puts green dice at a known entity (3 total) that is not currently broken.  It was described by the devs a 2.5 green dice.  Is 4 too many?  Maybe not.  Or, maybe not yet.  Have you tried it to find out?

But it only goes up to 4 agility if the attacker has 4 attack.  If the attacker is at 3, and you added LWF to a 3-agility ship...it would have no effect at all.

The question is simply whether you believe the price premium that ships with '4' attack pay actually fully covers the gain for that extra attack dice.  I don't think most of us do, meaning LWF on a 3-agi wouldn't be truly disruptive.  (I mean, seriously, it'd apply relatively infrequently, and usually in situations where the attack would be otherwise really-overwhelming...toning it down to just 'whelming'.  ;-) )

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2 minutes ago, xanderf said:

But it only goes up to 4 agility if the attacker has 4 attack.  If the attacker is at 3, and you added LWF to a 3-agility ship...it would have no effect at all.

The question is simply whether you believe the price premium that ships with '4' attack pay actually fully covers the gain for that extra attack dice.  I don't think most of us do, meaning LWF on a 3-agi wouldn't be truly disruptive.  (I mean, seriously, it'd apply relatively infrequently, and usually in situations where the attack would be otherwise really-overwhelming...toning it down to just 'whelming'.  ;-) )

I would argue (Just for the sake of argument mind you, I don't think the idea is bad) that those 3 AGI ships have access to AT instead.

Or, if this card is not broken,  maybe medium weight frame comes along.

I would say this idea is super easy for the OP to play test.  This would be a far more interesting thread if he started with "hey, I tried this thing and guess what!"

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8 minutes ago, Ailowynn said:

Stealth Device + Lightweight Frame might've been a bit much. Or maybe they wanted SD to have a niche. Other than that, I guess they were just future proofing. 

This would be really situational. Would only work against like Cruise Missiles and Range 1 Fenn.

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6 minutes ago, Ailowynn said:

Stealth Device + Lightweight Frame might've been a bit much. Or maybe they wanted SD to have a niche. Other than that, I guess they were just future proofing. 

So we're worried about a TIE Interceptor that is taking a 5-dice-attack?  Because otherwise, you aren't going to see LWF triggering with SD - and if you are taking a 5-dice-attack on 3 hull, without autothrusters...I just don't see adding a single additional agility dice as being game-breaking.

6 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

I would argue (Just for the sake of argument mind you, I don't think the idea is bad) that those 3 AGI ships have access to AT instead.

 

Those that do have access to AT - well, yeah, that's a no-brainer.  I mean, nobody is going to take LWF over AT, that's just crazy talk.

But none of the TIE Fighter, Advanced, Defender, or /fo have access to AT and are all currently shut out from LWF.  Of THOSE...the only one I could see really being a problem are the x7 Defenders, which pretty commonly have focus and evade tokens out.  But with the x7 and Palp nerf, lately, I think their time in the sun has faded...

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...although, as a partial acknowledgement of that concern...

It would have been easy enough to just have the card use a variable cost.  IE., print a '?' in the cost corner of the card, and have the card text read that the cost of the card is the agility of the ship when equipped.  (So 3-agility ships pay 3 points for it, while the 2-agility ships pay the current cost for it, and 1-agility ships that want to equip it get it at a discount...as it's hardly worth 2 points over 1 agility to begin with...)

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I think the point of that last clause is if you could fit it onto 3+ agility ships it should cost more than 2 points, probably 4 points considering SD is 3 points and goes away with the first hit. 

Edited by Joe Censored

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If you allowed lightweight frame on 3+ green ships it would detract from flying, as it is right now its hard to deal with a tokened up 3 dice ship one of the ways is to get into range one for a 4 dice shot on it, requiring expert flying as a counter.

Stealth is +1 green for 3pts that goes away after one hit. Lightweight frame for 2pts does not go away and will defend your high defense ships against its biggest threats. Can you imagine the complaining on this forum if for 2pts a 3 defense dice green ship basically cancels out your range one positioning? 

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As someone who loves to fly multiple TIE/sf I can tell you that sometimes when something seems underpowered, it's for a reason.  Soontir Fel + AT and LWF?  Get out, you bullies. Pretty much the only way to hit him is usually to throw more reds at him than greens.  Or block him.  Lol.

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I think we are all forgetting where Defenders were when LWF dropped. I'd like LWF on Vader and Fighters/FOs. But definitely not on Defenders, and I'd see that as more important.

2 hours ago, thebrettski said:

 

Stealth device exists. 'Nuff said.

LWF is a better designed, more interesting stealth device.

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Would Lightweight Frame be good as missile insurance.....I dunno.

  • I certainly wouldn't be paying 2 points for a durability increase on TIE fighters on a regular basis.
  • TIE interceptors - maybe. Lightweight Frame/Autothrusters versus Stealth Device/Autothrusters is a pretty fair comparison; on the one hand Stealth Device gets disabled the first time you're hit, and lightweight frame doesn't, but stealth works well against a volley of 2-dice and 3-dice attacks whilst lightweight frame does jack all. More importantly, the first time a hull 3 TIE interceptor is hit....is often the last.
  • The real reason Lightweight Frame really, really, really needs the agility limitation is the TIE defender. You'll notice that the ship it's made the biggest splash on is the TIE/sf, by turning it into a 'budget' TIE defender with some awesome unique pilots. Since Lightweight Frame is a modification - a not-especially-needed slot on the defender - the possibility of a TIE/x7, Lightweight Frame TIE Defender is not one I care to contemplate. Defenders are tough enough to take multiple hits, so the 'doesn't burn out' nature of lightweight frame over stealth device will matter, and with agility 3 and a free evade, the ability to gain a 4th defence die when targeted with a missile or range 1 shot is an unpleasant thought.

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It probably wouldn't be broken if it didn't have that last sentence. It would actually in most cases be almost useless on any ships with agility 3. You'd have to be taking a 4-5 dice attack to gain any benefit, and at 2 points it would be pretty steep. Only agility 2 ships really get any mileage out of it.

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19 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Needs armada dice and tokens 

I love that in Armada - dealing with damage by agonising over which token to exhaust or even spend (yikes!) is very interesting.

 

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