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Ailowynn

Now would be a great time to make 1/2 MoV apply to small ships.

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1 hour ago, mkevans80 said:

I think every ship needs to have a MOV-per-HP value, that is calculated when you design your list.  It is simply  the points value of your ship, divided by the number of hit points (shields + hull).  Each hit point that has come off a ship by the end of the game gives the opponent that number of MOV points.

Careful, i suggested this exact thing months ago and the board went ape **** about having to do 4th grade math.

Edited by wurms

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I like the Half pts for 1 hull left idea.

I also think ANY ship running a shield Regeneration upgrade/ability (list of upgrades and pilots could be included in FAQ) should be worth half pts if just 1 damage card is assigned. I might settle for half hull too.

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36 minutes ago, Deroche said:

 

Not to take away from your point as the he still would have lost, but shouldn't it have been 100-25 (or around 30, whatever) for getting at least half damage on Dengar? Every bit of MOV helps when figuring out the tie break on who makes the cut.

He didn't get me to half health on Dengar... I was 1 point away.  If he had gotten one more damage on each of my ships the win margin would have been 100-69 vs 100-0.
 

17 minutes ago, wurms said:

Careful, i suggested this exact thing months ago and the board went ape **** about having to do 4th grade math.

This board loves to go full-on bonobo and fling poo at the drop of a hat, doesn't it?  With a tournament worksheet (precalculated MOV-per-HP next to every listed ship) and a calculator on your phone if you're not good at mental math, this is child's play.  If you can design a list and play in an X-Wing tournament, you can friggin' add up a few numbers.

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The problem with "points-per-HP" isn't the math.  (I mean, maybe for a few people.)  The problem is that it changes the entire tactical calculus of the game.  There's no longer objective mathematical value in (1) killing a ship, or (2) preserving a ship to time.

Yes, there's still other value in them, respectively: for (1) that ship can't shoot you any longer, and for (2) you can preserve it until a final kamikaze run just before time expires.

This would warp the game-play in a significant fashion.  Don't get me wrong ... people would adapt.  But don't underestimate how big a change in tactics "points-per-HP" would result in.

Consider the first case.  Let's say Fenn is at 1 HP.  Asajj is at 5 HP.  Neither has tokens.  You have a 4-die attack and can attack either.

In the current game, which do you attack?  In the "points-per-HP" game, which do you attack?

Edited by Jeff Wilder

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I don't think I'm underestimating anything.  I know it would be a big change.  I just think it would be a good one.

To answer your question, if it's early to mid-game, I would shoot Fenn to remove him as a threat.  If it's the last turn of the game (or late game and I don't think I can get more shots off), I would shoot Asajj to maximize my points.  One could argue that adding decisions like that to the game is a good thing.

If I have 5 enemy Strikers and I've done three out of four damage to all five, with today's rules I'd get 0 MOV.  With the per-HP rule I'd get 75, which is a much more accurate representation of what was accomplished during the match.  You might say that killing a ship outright is more important (or indicative of skill/success) than damaging a bunch of them, but I think that would be a pretty hard stance to argue objectively.

After all, let's suppose I fly well and do a ton of damage to absolutely everybody (but no kills).  Is it fair that just because the dice skewed a little unfavorably on my kill shots, I get no points?  Is it more fair that if I'm on the other side of the battle and I squeak by with no deaths even though I got absolutely pummeled, I should get off scot-free because I did a good job running away and avoiding near the end of the match?  Avoiding death takes skill too.  You can argue either side.

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5 hours ago, ABXY said:

... 9 or more...

- - - - - 

Would your suggestion involve removing the Large-ship qualifier?... 

... cos that would give U-wings and Brobots a bit of a leg up. 

 

Yep, remove the large base rule and just make it half points on any ship with 9 or more hull/shield.

It'll help the u wing and bro bots, solve the issues with Miranda and now the wookie, but not penalize the y wing or b wing.  It'll help give a small edge to aces and imps.

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To add to my argument, I was on both sides of this last weekend.  My opponent in my first game got screwed out of 41 MOV and was one hp away from 28 more because there's no half-point rule for small ships.  In the next game, I missed 4 (count 'em, FOUR) range-1 shots with Dengar+Expertise (and target locks on 2 of those shots) against a 1-hp Vader, due to bad rolls on my part combined with orgasmically good rolls on his.  Those were shots I could have spent getting points on the other two enemy ships in the list while vader ran away.  Both scenarios were absolute bull, and really cut into my enjoyment of the championship.

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11 minutes ago, mkevans80 said:

If I have 5 enemy Strikers and I've done three out of four damage to all five, with today's rules I'd get 0 MOV. 

 ... If you have five Strikers, and your opponent has forced you to split fire so effectively that each has 3 damage on it, why do you deserve MoV?

There seems to be some inherent assumption in these suggestions that the score should reflect "what would happen if the game didn't have a time limit."  But tournament games do have a time limit.  Knowing that, and preparing for it, is part of tournament play.  (And the time limit is easily thematically justifiable.)

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Here's the half-point rule I personally would b!tch least about:

Half-MoV for: (1) Ships with 9 HP before upgrades.  Let's add needed value to Hull Upgrade and Shield Upgrade.  (2) Ships with the ability to regenerate shields, including via upgrades.  (If more than one (lame) ability to regenerate hull appears, revisit.)  Regen still has value, because you can go above half-HP, but if you don't, you're bleeding MoV.  (3) All ships in a squadron with Biggs (assuming no other nerf to his ability).

Furthermore, I'd like to see the actual rules of the game suggest a time limit, and explicate these rules, so that ships can be designed and play-tested such that they end up as congruent as possible in tournament play and casual play.

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Other than the experiences of 1 hit point frustrations, has anyone actually run a tournament (store kit, or "casual" perhaps) with points-per-hit?  Or 1/2 points on all ships at 1/2 health?  I'm tempted, just to see what all it might entail, just wondering if anyone has actually tried one and seen what it did to the overall lists that came into said tournament.

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11 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Is there an argument for being able to get partial points on a small ship?

Definitely. The later generations of really-ought-to-be-a-medium-ship-but-there's-no-such-thing like Miranda Doni, Norra Wexley and so on can be every bit as much a fortress as large ships - both in points invested in them and in the difficulty of killing them.

Realistically, doing the 9 hits needed to get any points from Miranda Doni is a darn sight harder than doing the damage needed to get points out of any large ship.

The problem is that a lot of the most successful really-big-small-ships rely on shield regeneration.....and (whilst @SaltMaster 5000's suggestion is as sensible as any) it feels like a clunky approach; if the damage has been 'undone', why should the player lose points for it?

If they do, why is taking-and-recovering-damage with R2-D2 (for example) seen as 'worse' than never-suffering-it-in-the-first-place with agility 3 and TIE/x7, given that the same damage rolled on red dice by the opponent (lots) results in the same damage at the end of the game (sod all)?

Giving up (some) points for Soontir Fel after he's taken only 2 hits is irksome, but let's be honest; if a TIE interceptor or TIE fighter has been reduced to one hit left, it's only by praying to the dice gods that he's survived the game. At the moment, I usually finish a game with half or more of a TIE swarm on half hit points or less; there is a good argument that my opponent should get some credit for that, too, given that there may be 6-7 damage cards floating around on various 'fully functional' ships.

 

Well, by and large, they are - but easier to recover, and suffering no extra effect from criticals.

If the damage has been undone, you should get points for it because it's a game. MoV or SoS isn't thematic either. Final Salvo isn't. Even R2-D2 isn't, he doesn't enable Luke to be invincible. Astromech droids can do small repairs and do complex navigation, they're not the god damned Protoss Shield Battery from Starcraft 1.

You do 5 damage to a Starviper, you get points for it. You do 9 damage to Miranda and you get nothing. That's too good, and more importantly it's not fun. You guess wrong on a 50/50 once and Miranda gets multiple shields back. When you total the amount of regenerated shields up at the end of the game, it's insane how this is allowed to happen. 16 health Miranda? 15 health Poe?

Especially with Intensity Comm Relay Poe gaining some traction, we need some way to deal with these ships besides for just having a bigger points fortress and winning on time.

If your Miranda has taken 9 damage, your opponent gets points for it. With your pristine regen ship, now it's on you to chase your opponent and legitimately win the game. With your full health regen ship, you should have no issue doing this.

It needs to be for ALL ships, not just ones that have 9 health or more. Fix ALL of the bull, don't arbitrarily stop.

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Also, let's get rid of MoV as a TIE Breaker in general and have...NO Tie Breakers. Lets make every tournament require a specific win/loss and cut to THAT win/loss, allowing players at a higher win/loss a bye for first round of elimination. This way pts scored in a match have less weight on your results.

Also, implement a more fair partial scoring system that accounts for 33+pt hard to kill ships or whatever.

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That is not practical. And while I am a fan of SoS as the primary tie breaker, I understand why MoV is more popular, and probably more practical in smaller tournies. 

 

What you want is a double elimination format. There is a reason, though, that Swiss is more popular for small tournaments. 

Edited by Sithborg

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2 hours ago, Sithborg said:

That is not practical. And while I am a fan of SoS as the primary tie breaker, I understand why MoV is more popular, and probably more practical in smaller tournies. 

 

What you want is a double elimination format. There is a reason, though, that Swiss is more popular for small tournaments. 

Double elimination technically doubles the number of matches or at least for the cuts. Swiss is actually the best for culling the tournament list.

But I will admit the way FFG handles FFG (and OP in general) is rather irritating.

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11 hours ago, Arschbombe said:

I  don't think making TIE swarms bleed MOV in 6 or 8 point chunks is going to be good for morale.

6 points if there are at 1 point left, (half hull rounded down). B-wings would be worth 11 points if they are down to their last hit. 

As for Moral, have you seen these forums lately? There is about as much moral as Yoda after Emperor Palpatine takes over.

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12 hours ago, mkevans80 said:

He didn't get me to half health on Dengar... I was 1 point away.  If he had gotten one more damage on each of my ships the win margin would have been 100-69 vs 100-0.
 

This board loves to go full-on bonobo and fling poo at the drop of a hat, doesn't it?  With a tournament worksheet (precalculated MOV-per-HP next to every listed ship) and a calculator on your phone if you're not good at mental math, this is child's play.  If you can design a list and play in an X-Wing tournament, you can friggin' add up a few numbers.

This calculator, specifically. No exceptions. Every X-wing rebel player should get one:

 

51zJ-vicEjL.jpg

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6 hours ago, phild0 said:

Also, let's get rid of MoV as a TIE Breaker in general and have...NO Tie Breakers. Lets make every tournament require a specific win/loss and cut to THAT win/loss, allowing players at a higher win/loss a bye for first round of elimination. This way pts scored in a match have less weight on your results.

Also, implement a more fair partial scoring system that accounts for 33+pt hard to kill ships or whatever.

36931_0

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14 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

The problem with "points-per-HP" isn't the math.  (I mean, maybe for a few people.)  The problem is that it changes the entire tactical calculus of the game.  There's no longer objective mathematical value in (1) killing a ship, or (2) preserving a ship to time.

Yes, there's still other value in them, respectively: for (1) that ship can't shoot you any longer, and for (2) you can preserve it until a final kamikaze run just before time expires.

This would warp the game-play in a significant fashion.  Don't get me wrong ... people would adapt.  But don't underestimate how big a change in tactics "points-per-HP" would result in.

Consider the first case.  Let's say Fenn is at 1 HP.  Asajj is at 5 HP.  Neither has tokens.  You have a 4-die attack and can attack either.

In the current game, which do you attack?  In the "points-per-HP" game, which do you attack?

So just a question, what if we switched from half hit point to half hull points (rounded down for small ships, up for large ships) count as half MOV? That will take care of the whole regen thing because hull doesn't regen with the exception of that one <astromech> upgrade and the R-5 flipping a face up direct hit. I mean when looking at the meta and seeing what could possibly get a boost from this doesn't look like we would be doing any accidents like making Biggs stronger or anything. Heck get biggs down to one hull it doesn't matter how many shields he recovered he is still half points.

Edited by Marinealver

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14 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

 ... If you have five Strikers, and your opponent has forced you to split fire so effectively that each has 3 damage on it, why do you deserve MoV?

There seems to be some inherent assumption in these suggestions that the score should reflect "what would happen if the game didn't have a time limit."  But tournament games do have a time limit.  Knowing that, and preparing for it, is part of tournament play.  (And the time limit is easily thematically justifiable.)

If this were chess, you might have a point about forcing your opponent to split fire.  But there's so much luck with the dice that you can fly like a bonobo and have crazy things like my 5-striker example happen.  Frequently.  And besides, it is equally fair to argue that doing 15 damage across 5 ships (who got lucky with a defense roll here and there) deserves more MOV than doing a grand total of 4 damage to a single ship but otherwise being beaten like a red-headed stepchild.

There's an assumption that a score should reflect a fight to the death because I want to play X-Wing, not "Run Away Wing."  Chasing a 1-health ship around all over the mat trying to get some credit for the work I've done  while my opponent runs out the clock is not my idea of a fun time, and that is made even worse by the arbitrary nature of which ships give half points and which don't.
 

Edited by mkevans80

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