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Jukey

Sloane hard counters

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Sloane has been getting a lot of attention lately. So instead of focusing on what she does for imperial lists, and how she makes us mad, let's discuss some ways to take her down.

In general, my opinion is heavy flak is number 1 on the list. Raiders, Arquitens, hammerheads, and liberties are all good with their nasty black or dual black flak. Anything rebel shooting blue backed by toryn farr is gonna hurt as well.

Option 2 is hard counter squads, shara and Ciena both are good at this, as well as any a-wing or interceptor.  Another option is our good friend Mauler (remember him?) or his clunkier rebel counterpart Ten Numb (bring toryn to get those crits!).

Option 3 is to simply kill those **** fragile quasars before the swarm gets rolling.

theres a few rough thoughts. What are your hard counters?

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My thinking is run more generic squadrons to tie up Sloane's squadrons. 1. her squadrons can't attack ships 2. generic squadrons don't have defence tokens for her to spend. Snipe squadrons might be good to get those pesky intel squadrons as well. Probally the best to get to the Quasar and kill it. 2nd player fleets may work well too and take advantage of those objectives.

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Good thing to discuss. At the moment, regardless of what her power level turns out to be, it seems like there are a lot of people using Sloane - according to our local statistics master, @Baltanok, fully 1/4th of the lists in his database from recent store championships were using Sloane! [Note once again: this data suggests she shows up a lot - if anything, current statistics have her slightly underperforming:

3 hours ago, Baltanok said:

store champ data as of now:

52 fleets in 6 tournaments where we have all, or nearly all, lists:  13 Sloane, 2 of those in top quarter, 4 in bottom quarter.  So, too little data to make a strong conclusion, but so far she's doing OK, not great, not poorly.

If 13 lists were randomly distributed into quartiles, one would expect 3.25 finishing in the top 25% (mathematically; obviously a quarter-list is an impossibility - it's like the whole "average household is two and a half people" or what not...) rather than 2, and 3.25 in the bottom 25% rather than 4. But, as a new admiral, people are probably still working out how to use her best.

Okay, now - STRONG qualifier: I don't play competitive Armada at all. I play Armada - the game and its rules - but I've never gone to anything resembling a tournament. I play grand narrative campaigns, often semi-solitaire: I'll take one side, then have a friend or family member who likes pew pew spaceships and Star Wars but [at the moment] won't learn all the nuts-and-bolts rules decide a broad course of action for the other side, based on information I give them. Anyways, how that works could be a whole 'nother topic, but I also enjoy keeping on top of the 'tournament' style game via these forums, blogs, the datasets some of the devoted forumites here maintain, etc. Then I like thinking about it as a mental puzzle. But all that is *very* different from actually playing another person at a tournament. So, mostly I'm throwing out some thoughts here that others can run with or shoot down because hey, 3 AM, nothing better to do.

It does seem like flak is really finally coming into its own. Imperial bombers can't hover outside its range with pre-FAQ Rhymer anymore; rebel bomber ace lists can't be a zombie horde like pre-FAQ Rieekan; and Sloane is encouraging the use of swarms of low hull TIEs. Heck, there might even be an additional effect if generally lower hull, larger number, faster fighters are added to lists as their own counter. Personally, I'm really excited by this; my vision of a Star Wars space battle (shaped heavily by games like the X-Wing series, EAW, Rebellion [the computer game], etc.) has always been fighters, capital ships, and lighter corvettes that act to screen the heavy hitters against fighters. Probably the biggest weakness is that there are relatively few cards/upgrades that really benefit flak; the ones most intentionally geared toward fighter defense, Point-Defense Reroute and Cluster Bombs, suck, even more so considering the opportunity cost [slots you give up]. Flechette Torps seem to be the main useful one for flakboats, but seem oriented more towards shutting down bombers than a Sloane TIE brigade. Similarly, Kallus is good vs. uniques, but most Sloane lists seem to lean toward generics. I know someone (Mag? Gink?) was pushing Ruthless Strategists as a good hard anti-swarm counter, and it seems it would be effective, though it takes up that precious Weapons Team slot...

I actually find it interesting that FFG hasn't released any upgrades substantially boosting the power of flak. I almost wonder if it was playtested and found to be *too* powerful. Or maybe it's just something they're still getting around to.

 @Green Knight's VASSAL module has a tweaked 'infinities' set with buffed PDR and Cluster Bombs, right? I saw the cards on KDY a while back. Has anyone played many online games using those alternate versions testing what effect it has?

In terms of the fighter game, it seems to me that the big change is just in the 'meta', what sort of enemy squadron complements you might expect to fight, rather than to the capabilities of squadrons directly under Sloane's command. For handling that sub-game generally, I really enjoyed/found informative the posts on this at @Snipafist and @geek19's blog, Cannot Get Your Ship Out. Check the various general Squadron articles here; the idea of small/medium/large fighter coverage was, I thought, a good way to break down different approaches, and there's a lot there.

As for the Quasar Fires...that's an interesting one. To my eyes, the new *titles* for QFs, rather than necessarily just the ship's inherent squadron rating, is what's powerful. Imperials now have ships that can really support a fighter fleet, just as Rebel titles like Yavaris and Gallant Haven have for quite a while. So perhaps we can look to tactics developed to deal with those ships, rather than re-inventing the wheel? If anything, it seems the QF should be easier to deal with - comparing Stronghold with Gallant Haven for instance, Stronghold works at a longer range, but an Assault Frigate is generally pretty okay in the middle of a melee, while a QF definitely does not want to be there, both in terms of fragility and not adding too much of its own to the fight. The lesson I think I would take out of this is trying to keep the fight relatively concentrated, so your flak ships aren't fighting their fighters + Stronghold off to one side while your cap ships are too far away to pop the carrier. Just a, perhaps obvious, thought of the moment though. It's also important to note there's another thread going discussing the fragility of the Quasar, and many there seem to feel that, while it's relatively fragile, it's cheap enough it's not too bad 'tanking' some damage on a points lost basis.

Anyways, going to try and get some sleep. Look forward to the thoughts of the much more experienced members of this community!

Edit: Further thought - will the long term effect on the Imperial squadron game from the Quasar Fire, and in particular the titles it offers, actually be larger than Sloane as a commander? Since they came in the same pack, both focus on squadrons, etc. many people (myself included) seem to be conflating them, but neither really requires the other. Certainly any Imperial admiral can grab a Quasar and benefit from its titles and the ability to direct a significant fighter screen: yes, the high squadron value per point is useful in commanding the massive swarms of TIEs many people are using with Sloane, but on the other hand it's also pretty much *exactly* as many commanded squadrons as you'd need for a much smaller, more elite fighter force that doesn't synergize well with her. And for Sloane lists, her ability seems to be more about softening up enemy ships for your own capital ships to land a killing blow, rather than doing tons of damage with TIEs per se... so maybe in the long term we'll see more successful Sloane lists lean toward hybrid carrier-battleships, like the VSD/ISD? Again, I kind of lack the experience to fully follow these threads of thought, but it's interesting to ponder.

Finally, let's just all give thanks Rhymer was nerfed before Sloane and, perhaps even more so, the QF and its available titles. The threat range of a Rhymer bomber wing still staying sheltered under Stronghold's umbrella, or propelled by Squall, would be rather frightening...

Edited by Kadorak
Added some additional thoughts.

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1 minute ago, Kadorak said:

@Green Knight's VASSAL module has a tweaked 'infinities' set with buffed PDR and Cluster Bombs, right? I saw the cards on KDY a while back. Has anyone played many online games using those alternate versions testing what effect it has?

I was in the middle of revising some stuff, so I made it hidden, then never got around to finishing it...the plan was to buff some under-used/powered cards and publish as a small Armada extension. It's still the plan, but I'm pressed on time (or just lazy).

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.

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I usually play the game 'as is' and enjoy that tremendously.

But I like to tinker with rules and 'what if' mods. Not just with Armada - with ever single game system I've ever owned. Minis/boardgames, RPGs, even some computer games.

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.

.

As for the actual cards:

PD Reroute: I just removed the range restriction on re-rolls. It seemed to work well with blue AA, and should work with red too. The problem was mainly Toryn Farr. Her existence + the buff made esp double blues really, really strong. But then again Toryn is too good to be true, so perhaps more a flaw in her.

Cluster Bombs: Other squads at distance 1 from the original target took 1 damage (including friendly squads in one version). I really liked that version. It was a solid buff, but the opponent could counter the added effect to some extent with clever play.

QLT: Removed the range restriction. This was pre-Rhymer nerf mind you. QLT isn't such a bad card, but Rhymer prevalence made much too circumstantial.

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17 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

QLT: Removed the range restriction. This was pre-Rhymer nerf mind you. QLT isn't such a bad card, but Rhymer prevalence made much too circumstantial.

I forgot about QLTs. Would be an interesting counter (so to speak) to what seems to be Sloane's main strength - her TIEs can actually contribute to hurting your big ships after winning the squadron war - but then you have to take up the offensive retrofit slot (if it exists) on the ship you're *guessing* will be the target. Granted, except for [ironically] carriers, offensive retrofit actually seems to have a fairly weak set of alternatives compared to the abundance of riches for officer slots, weapons teams, what have you, or even the few-but-very-good options for defensive retrofits, but still, it relies on the enemy coming to you [not just in terms of range restrictions, but in terms of attacking the retrofitted ship] and is only going to be particularly potent against a sub-type of squadron attacks.

Thanks for sharing your tinkering with & experiences with playtesting on VASSAL - I like the ideas you have rolling around in there. :)

Edit: Any chance you could "un-hide" it, even if it's unfinished? I'm the same way [both in terms of playing my games "as-is" much of the time, AND in liking to tinker, or apply mod packs to PC games, etc.] and I'd be interested to see your ideas.

Edited by Kadorak

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Forgot to add this about PD Reroute: Devastator also makes it tricky, as it can add dice on squad attack too. So you could have like 6 blues, rerollable vs one squad (at medium). But then again you're using Devastator attack vs a single squad, so it's self-limiting.

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I still think the answer is the humble X-wing.

If you're seeing Sloan, then it's highly likely the player has committed to a strong squadron themed build so all their squadron pushing ships are going to be packed with squadron buffs. I don't get why people think a Sloan swarm doesn't work on ships, it does just fine. TIEs and Inteceptors roll Blue dice, so Sloan's ability means those dice are going to do something! If not outright do damage, then whittling at Defense Tokens for the follow up volleys. The weakness is that despite how hard they alpha strike, they are still glass cannons.

I think a solid defense is to plan a squadron build that can soak the damage if you have to take a Sloan alpha-strike. It's better if you can avoid the full Alpha, but things happen. Rebels can be good at this, but the trick is to move away from the Aces. I often see Rebel squadron builds that are mostly, if not all, Aces. That's fine but, sometimes you just need more hulls. Even with all the buffs, it's still highly likely to take two TIE attacks on a single X-wing, ace or not, to take it down. In return, each X-wing has good odds of destroying a TIE with one attack, or knocking it down enough that follow up flak or Ruthless Strategist can finish it off. This is why A-wings are a bad choice: they will get destroyed in the Alpha strike and their Counter Attack can't kill a full health TIE. Good ol' Jan, Wedge and a whole slew of X-wings can give a Sloan swarm a serious run for it's money. If they lose, their remaining ties should be manageable to deal with but now the Sloan player has a fleet designed for Squadron pushing with little left to support. If the Rebels win, all those X-wings also have BOMBER...

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If you are asking for hard counters against Sloane, you need to find out what are the strength from Sloane.

She is boosting squadrons. That they have a minor bonus in the squadron vs squadron fight (only against aces and even there is not such a big bonus). But the true strength is against ships. The squadrons are really deadly if going for ships. And even more deadly when there are no enemy squadrons they have to take care of.

Now we look for counters against squadrons.
Other squadrons and flak are the best ways to deal with squadrons. Taking out the enemy ships does work as well, but this is really hard, and can backfire when you are ignoring the squadrons.

 

For Rebels:
They have a big bonus on the squadrons. They have quite a lot of hull. So the Imperial squadrons have to fight through the hull to kill them.
Biggs Ball, Jan Ors, Gallant Haven, YT2400 and VCX are a good choice for this. Even a Jamming Field can help.
If you are able to combine Gallant Haven, Biggs+Jan and Jamming Field, it will be pain to take these squadrons down.
The Rebel utilities (Adar, Yavaris) make the squadrons better without costing anything from the squadron pool. But this part only matter when the squadron pool is full spend. A simple counter list might not have a full squadron pool.
A-Wings as well a nice way to handle the Ties. But they have only 4 hull. And because of this, they might die way to fast, so there is not much use of the counter. Only the two Aces might be worth it. Shara can deal 3 damage and might last for 2-3 attacks (if lucky).
Even Ten Numb is really nice for it. The Ties are close together, and his damage on crit can really harm the Ties. If he is able to attack 2 or even 3 times it can really decimate the Ties. And he is at least useful when it comes to ship fight.

The flak from the rebel ships is a bit weaker compared to the Imperials. The Nebulon Escort is nice with two blue, but you don’t want this ship so close to the combat. The Mark II A is to expensive. And the MC80 are already big ships that normally want to go for ships instead of squadrons. But sometimes the double black from the MC80 Battle is better on squadrons than an attack on a ship, unless this attack kills it.

The rebels have as well a bad luck with specific upgrades. Beside the Ruthless Strategist they don’t have so many that is useful. Cluster Bomb is already one of the best cards against squadrons. Even when not many use it so far, it might be, that it will be used more often now. The 4 blue dice, damage on hit and crit, means a good chance to kill any Tie with 3 hulls. Ace or not Ace does not matter. if you can take out Cienna, Mauler or Howlrunner for 5 points, it is a nice deal.
Quad Laser Turret is as well a good choice now. Most Sloane lists don’t use Rhymer anymore. His Dice does not help so much with Sloane. And distance 1 or short range is not such a big different anymore. And without Rhymer the QLT can at least fire. During the "Rhymer Time" it was a wasted card, because the Imperial Squadrons were out of range. Even when a blue dice is not really much, it can hurt the generic and might cost the aces a defense token or they receive damage. And if you combine the QLT with the Ruthless, it will save the ship for some attacks from the squadrons, as long as you have squadrons close.
The Point Defense Reroute are not this useful. There is only one ship with two blue dice that can really use it. And this is the Mark II A. I would not waste it on a ship with only one blue die. 

 

For the Imperials:
The squadrons are good for an squadron/squadron fight. But it will cost the imperial player as well a lot of the squadrons. The Sloane List is normally fully set for the squadron fight. With all the upgrades. As soon as the counter player want to stand against this, he need it as well. And this is a bad choice.
One answer for Sloane list could be squadrons with a lot of hull that cost not so much. Decimator and Boosk are really nice. But they are not so useful against non Sloane list. And against Sloane Aces you will need to many decimators to deal any damage. And they are really expensive.
A few shuttles could do the same trick, but they are cheaper. It will take the Sloane squadrons a while to take them down.
Mauler is a nice addition, but he cannot do it alone. He need the support and backup. But if you are able to use him twice, he will do a lot of damage. And guarded by a few Tie Advanced he might even be able to use his effect 3 times. And this kills most Sloane Ties.
the squadron support upgrades are a bit low for the imperials. Chiraneau is really expensive. But he can be used for Mauler, to get your squadrons back on the damaged enemy squadrons. But i don’t think that he is this useful on a Sloane Counter list. He is way more useful in the Sloane list.

The flak from the imperial ships is way better. The Raider I, GSD II, Quasar I and ISD II have great anti squadron dice. The Raider can even use the Flechette Torpedoes and Ordnance Experts. For the big lockdown. The only drawback is, the raider is to fragile. It can happen that it will shot down before able to Flechette the Sloane Squadrons.

For upgrades it is at least the same with the Ruthless. he is great, if you have squadrons with a lot of hull. But because of the better flak, the imperials can use some upgrades way better than the rebels. Flechette Torpedoes are great on the Raider. Point Defense Reroute can be used on the ISD II or GSD II.
Agent Kallus is also really great, when Sloane has an Ace list. Even against other lists he is useful enough to be considered to be used most of the time. And Kallus is really going to shine when he is combined with QLT.
But if you really want to ruin the day for a Sloane list, use an ISD II with QLT, Kallus, Devastator and Cluster Bomb. A Counter-attack with 1 blue + 4 blue + 1 black and a cluster bomb can really kill any squadron. It is possible to take out some nasty squadrons this way.
With the Quasar II there is the first ship with a red anti squadron die. With Kallus it is possible to make a really big danger Zone for unique squadrons.

But my personal favorite for the anti squadron fight is the GSD II Demolisher. You will lose some bonus against ships, and it cost a bit more. But if you place Kallus on this Demo, you have a great anti squadron boat. There is no more hiding in obstacles. And the Demo is able to attack the squadrons twice, thanks to the title. If you are able to double him (last and first), it means 4 attacks with 2 (or 3 against unique) dice on all squadrons in one hull zone. And this is really a pain for the Sloane squadrons.

 

The last question is, does this work as well against other lists. A Sloane counter is a counter against ONE list. If you do not face a Sloane list, your list should still work. A pure counter only against a single list will be win most time only against this list. And lose against some others. So you need a balance between counter and your own goal.

 

 

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I've found YT1300's to be great in this regard, 7 health, escort and counter running alongside your ships stops the mostly fragile imp squadrons that can be used with Sloan to be destroyed. Only problem being have to get a lot of them :( 

just my experience however

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53 minutes ago, DrakonLord said:

I've found YT1300's to be great in this regard, 7 health, escort and counter running alongside your ships stops the mostly fragile imp squadrons that can be used with Sloan to be destroyed. Only problem being have to get a lot of them :( 

just my experience however

Speed 2. Hard to catch squadrons that are flying with speed 4-5. They are dancing around, and might be able to take the YT1300 down way to fast and easy.

Ten Numb has the same problem. His biggest problem is th speed.

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My counters so far reflect a lot of Jukey's comments:

-Reliable flak. Start with any kind of 2-dice flak. Aim for black backed by Ordinance Experts or blue backed by Toryn Farr. You want the potential for 2 damage to scare generics.

-Counter/anti-squad Upgrades: Toryn, Ordinance Experts, and external racks are all known good buffs. Ruthless Strategists is good if you have a meaty screen. Seems like QLT, Cluster Bombs, and PDR are all potentially useful again but not tested much yet. Cluster bombs get a hypothetical bonus as they aren't an attack and could oneshot most scatter aces. 

- Counter squad play (Rebel): 

--Shara is comically good against Sloane. If she is anywhere near Toryn, write off 3 generic squads trying to kill her.

--Jan Ors' stock also rose. With some escorts, she provides a safe haven for enough defense tokens to blunt an alpha strike.

--Biggs transfers damage.

--Gold squad has some value as 6 non-heavy HP.

--Dutch is also awesome against Sloane. Shut a squad off or get bonus damage against activated ones. 

--Ten Nunb is Rebels only squad based area damage. There have been comments about him being slow, but he doesn't want to engage initially. You want him to engage once the big cluster of squads has formed.

--1300s have potential, but need to have an increase in coverage/threat range through Biggs or FCT or both. 

- Counter squad play (Imperials)

-- Zertik. Cheap 5 double brace. Takes hits for you. 

-- Fel+Advanceds. Autodamage is good. Plus, once the escorts did, scatter and counter 2. 

-- Mauler. Autodamage.

-- Dengar -  Counter is strong against Sloane.

 

For both factions - seriously, bring Counter. Her trash mob melts to any sort of area damage. 

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16 hours ago, Tokra said:

Speed 2. Hard to catch squadrons that are flying with speed 4-5. They are dancing around, and might be able to take the YT1300 down way to fast and easy.

Ten Numb has the same problem. His biggest problem is th speed.

Why da f** would you need to catch them? Those squadrons have to come at either your ships or your squadrons, so keep your YTs with your ships and once their engaged they will not be able to move (unless Intel, but i mean I would rather an Intel squadron then more superiority squadrons)

while at first you may see he speed and go oh crap they/he's useless, get over it, if u can't get around speed two, there are things like fighter coordination teams,  independence, All fighters follow me, rapid launch bays, etc. to get around it.

FCT is a 3 point upgrade you could put on 1-2 of your ships that makes a speed 2 squadron an effective speed 3- same as a X wing -_- 

(13 points) independence with AFFM = speed 5 B wings, ten numb or YT1300's, plus you get a MC80 for combat

AFmk2 with gallant haven= no speed boost but making a hard to kill squadron amazing.

lack of speed just becomes a extremely small problem as long as you recognise and build for it. While it certainly does not in any way shape or form mean all fleets should use them, they should be considered much more often as a effective choice IMO then they seem to be.

 

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32 minutes ago, DrakonLord said:

Why da f** would you need to catch them? Those squadrons have to come at either your ships or your squadrons, so keep your YTs with your ships and once their engaged they will not be able to move (unless Intel, but i mean I would rather an Intel squadron then more superiority squadrons)

while at first you may see he speed and go oh crap they/he's useless, get over it, if u can't get around speed two, there are things like fighter coordination teams,  independence, All fighters follow me, rapid launch bays, etc. to get around it.

FCT is a 3 point upgrade you could put on 1-2 of your ships that makes a speed 2 squadron an effective speed 3- same as a X wing -_- 

(13 points) independence with AFFM = speed 5 B wings, ten numb or YT1300's, plus you get a MC80 for combat

AFmk2 with gallant haven= no speed boost but making a hard to kill squadron amazing.

lack of speed just becomes a extremely small problem as long as you recognise and build for it. While it certainly does not in any way shape or form mean all fleets should use them, they should be considered much more often as a effective choice IMO then they seem to be.

 

As already said. Squadron lists are a good counter for Sloane. As more squadrons and squadron support upgrades as better. But you have to think if you want to use independent squadrons, or if you want to build a full squadron list with full support from ships.
As soon as you start to make a list with so many upgrades for squadrons, you have by definition a full squadron list, that is already a counter list for Sloane. When you add 1-2 FCT and 1-2 FC along with Independence and maybe Adar, Yavaris, Hangar Bays, Boosted Comms, ..... you will have a full squadron fleet. If you are burning 10-20 points in squadron upgrades you better have as well 134 points in the squadrons.

But if you want to use some independent squadrons to counter Sloane, the YT1300 are a bad choice. It is way to easy to outmaneuver speed 2 squadrons. I am already using Vector most of the time for the "slow" speed 4 Ties.

 

The second drawback with the slow squadrons is, that you let the opponent make the first step. He can choose when and where he want to attack you. It is already a problem with the Speed 3 squadrons. But it is way worse with speed 2.
2-3 YT1300 are dead in one round if the opponent can freely choose the combat zone. The counter 1 is a joke in this case. And does not even trigger on some of the aces. Basically it does not even trigger on all Scatter Aces, if they are flown right.

 

But even when you said you keep the YT1300 at your ships. He can just jump behind the ship and attack it far out of range of the YT1300. They cannot even engage the squadrons that are this far on the other side of a ship. The YT1300 are dead meat in this case.

 

I am not saying that they are bad. But i would not use them. It is my personal opionon that i find them to bad. And i think that i am really good in Squadron fights. I know what is dangerous for me and what is not. A swarm of 5-6 YT1300 without any support is NO danger for a Sloane swarm (controlled by a decent player).

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4 minutes ago, Tokra said:

The second drawback with the slow squadrons is, that you let the opponent make the first step.

Is this drawback specific to slow squads? 

Imperial interceptors ALWAYS make the first move. Its inevitable and unavoidable. 

So why bother trying to avoid it? 

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13 minutes ago, Tokra said:

As already said. Squadron lists are a good counter for Sloane. As more squadrons and squadron support upgrades as better. But you have to think if you want to use independent squadrons, or if you want to build a full squadron list with full support from ships.
As soon as you start to make a list with so many upgrades for squadrons, you have by definition a full squadron list, that is already a counter list for Sloane. When you add 1-2 FCT and 1-2 FC along with Independence and maybe Adar, Yavaris, Hangar Bays, Boosted Comms, ..... you will have a full squadron fleet. If you are burning 10-20 points in squadron upgrades you better have as well 134 points in the squadrons.

But if you want to use some independent squadrons to counter Sloane, the YT1300 are a bad choice. It is way to easy to outmaneuver speed 2 squadrons. I am already using Vector most of the time for the "slow" speed 4 Ties.

 

The second drawback with the slow squadrons is, that you let the opponent make the first step. He can choose when and where he want to attack you. It is already a problem with the Speed 3 squadrons. But it is way worse with speed 2.
2-3 YT1300 are dead in one round if the opponent can freely choose the combat zone. The counter 1 is a joke in this case. And does not even trigger on some of the aces. Basically it does not even trigger on all Scatter Aces, if they are flown right.

 

But even when you said you keep the YT1300 at your ships. He can just jump behind the ship and attack it far out of range of the YT1300. They cannot even engage the squadrons that are this far on the other side of a ship. The YT1300 are dead meat in this case.

 

I am not saying that they are bad. But i would not use them. It is my personal opionon that i find them to bad. And i think that i am really good in Squadron fights. I know what is dangerous for me and what is not. A swarm of 5-6 YT1300 without any support is NO danger for a Sloane swarm (controlled by a decent player).

1 YT1300 can just as easily jump the width of a base as any other squadron, so while I respect you don't like them (every admiral has their own style) I think we can only agree to disagree on this issue because I've had the exact opposite experience in over 20 games with them, they have never let me down as squadrons except as interceptors or dedicated bombers. Due to my experience with them, I rarely take any actual supporting upgrades anymore, torun far and other uniques aside. 

Also fora squadron to "jump to the other side of a ship and attack"you know what the YT can do?.... Jump over and engage it,it has to be at distance 1 of the ship to shoot it (barring a single imp squadrons ability... You know who he is) and a YT as I said above can jump over the width of all ship bases, if not the length of a large base (width being one side to another and length being the front to the rear)

 

 and also I will state my opinion that even though I love YT1300s, you should have a mix of squadrons in your fleet, 

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5 hours ago, Tokra said:

The second drawback with the slow squadrons is, that you let the opponent make the first step. He can choose when and where he want to attack you. It is already a problem with the Speed 3 squadrons. But it is way worse with speed 2.
2-3 YT1300 are dead in one round if the opponent can freely choose the combat zone. The counter 1 is a joke in this case. And does not even trigger on some of the aces. Basically it does not even trigger on all Scatter Aces, if they are flown right.

 

But even when you said you keep the YT1300 at your ships. He can just jump behind the ship and attack it far out of range of the YT1300. They cannot even engage the squadrons that are this far on the other side of a ship. The YT1300 are dead meat in this case.

 

I am not saying that they are bad. But i would not use them. It is my personal opionon that i find them to bad. And i think that i am really good in Squadron fights. I know what is dangerous for me and what is not. A swarm of 5-6 YT1300 without any support is NO danger for a Sloane swarm (controlled by a decent player).

I agree with the very first part of your post that 20+ in upgrades supporting squads means you should be committing to a full screen anyway. I disagree that it takes 20+ to keep 1300s relevant. A single FCT on an MC80A or MC80C is enough to keep a small pile of speed 2 squads in position if you are disciplined with maneuvers.

 

As for the rest of your points:

-Any not speed 5 And not snipe squads usually concede that they have to take at least one activation's worth of alpha strike. There are some exceptions with clever activation order, raw numbers, maneuvers, and FCT. Nonetheless, it is a reasonable assumption. At that point, the difference between speed 2 and 3 isn't that much to me.

-Counter 1 is actually better for scatter aces. Defense tokens are weaker against multiple attacks. It is your chance to force decisions on burning scatter tokens earlier. A scatter ace that has to take a single hit (from counter), a 2-3 damage shot (from the 1300 activating), and another 1-2 damage (from flak) is either burning a scatter, dead, or ending a turn with one hull.

-Jumping squads past 1300s and hitting ships: This is completely irrelevant to speed 2 squads. It applies to literally everything that isn't first activation, speed 5 squads. 

-As for my opponent actually jumping past my squad shield and hitting my ship's back: good. I love when an opponent is dumb enough to jump non-rogue squadrons to the backside of my ships. They get flak and then I leave. No worries about "do I hit squads or ships." If I am worried about them being activated next turn, then that means I can shoot at and kill their carrier. Another win. I've done this multiple times. If they are behind me, then even a boosted comms ship is in range. If it is relay, then I have nice convenient targets. If they have relay AND escorts to protect that relay, then I'm either not facing Sloane or I'm facing a badly built Sloane list.

 

I also agree that a swarm of 5-6 1300s isn't terribly dangerous. I don't think mindless spam of any squad type is a good idea. Now, add Jan or Biggs or both, and 1300s become able to soak nauseating amounts of damage. Counter 1 triggers more, and I tie up squads for longer. Intel lets me readjust so you aren't getting good mass fire tactics after the first alpha. 3 blues and Toryn mean that I'm in the one-shotting range for most TIEs, especially after taking counter 1. 

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2 minutes ago, Church14 said:

-Counter 1 is actually better for scatter aces. Defense tokens are weaker against multiple attacks. It is your chance to force decisions on burning scatter tokens earlier. A scatter ace that has to take a single hit (from counter), a 2-3 damage shot (from the 1300 activating), and another 1-2 damage (from flak) is either burning a scatter, dead, or ending a turn with one hull.

This is why i wrote: " Basically it does not even trigger on all Scatter Aces, if they are flown right. "

if the imperial player if playing his squadrons correct, the counter is worthless, because it will end in the scatter token. The YT1300 will not have any chance left for a normal attack (it should be dead after these attacks). So you can as well use the scatter for the counter. So even if the counter is a hit, it does nothing. These squadrons should be the last who activate. So no ship after it for the flak, no squadron command to enable an attack. And unless there are rogues, the squadrons will not do any attacks. IF flow right, the YT1300 will just pop without doing any damage. And you should be able to take down 1-2 with the aces.

There are many "if" "when" "unless" involoved (always). In one match it might work, in another not. This will be different all the times, and depend quite a lot on the opponent and the fleet. I am just saying how i am (or would) do it. And for me a bunch of 1300 without support are an easy going.

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9 minutes ago, Church14 said:

-Jumping squads past 1300s and hitting ships: This is completely irrelevant to speed 2 squads. It applies to literally everything that isn't first activation, speed 5 squads. 

-As for my opponent actually jumping past my squad shield and hitting my ship's back: good. I love when an opponent is dumb enough to jump non-rogue squadrons to the backside of my ships. They get flak and then I leave. No worries about "do I hit squads or ships." If I am worried about them being activated next turn, then that means I can shoot at and kill their carrier. Another win. I've done this multiple times. If they are behind me, then even a boosted comms ship is in range. If it is relay, then I have nice convenient targets. If they have relay AND escorts to protect that relay, then I'm either not facing Sloane or I'm facing a badly built Sloane list.

If you think so ;). I better hope you never have to play a squadron player like me.

Nearly non of my tournament games was won by ships. I win them with the squadrons. And i have a good win ratio with this :P.
But i am a minority in using this tactic. Like using Tarkin. I am one of these who are in danger of extinction :D.

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40 minutes ago, Tokra said:

If you think so ;). I better hope you never have to play a squadron player like me.

Nearly non of my tournament games was won by ships. I win them with the squadrons. And i have a good win ratio with this :P.
But i am a minority in using this tactic. Like using Tarkin. I am one of these who are in danger of extinction :D.

I'm smiling at this because I have a pretty bad ego that I try really hard to suppress. I want to prove you wrong sometime

 

My last tourney saw a match doing exactly what you suggested. I had 5 squads, he had 15 (and Vector). I delayed my carrier. My screen covered my flotillas and my nebulon. He jumped in and sent one wave to kill Ten. The second activation to the side and hit my MC80A. He bypassed the rest of my squads exactly as you would. My next two activations killed 8-9 TIE Fighters with flak and a tiny bit of squad help. Any scatter aces short of a Cienna would have taken hull damage from flak and then been smoked by my Xwings. 

 

Your basic strategy is sound if your opponent has garbage for flak or poor:poorly-planned squad activations. 

Edited by Church14

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