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draco193

Post Rhymer Nerf Bomber Wings

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Wave 6 and the preceding FAQ has brought a real shake up to the Imperial list construction. One of the groups most affected I feel like is the Imperial player looking to bring a bomber wing. TIE bombers feel especially vulnerable now without Rhymers range and the sheer amount of FC squadrons running around. Defenders seem to continue to be a good bomber buy, given of course their substantial cost. 

What are you guys running now if you'd run a bomber wing? Are more points going to more anti fighter squads to compete to push bombers through? Is the bomber wing just kind of dead as a list basis?

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I think you're more likely to see Dengar+Soontir combinations with multiple escort squadrons now then before to maximize the punishment anything gearing to crack a rhymerball takes, especially if it's against another Imperial fighter wing. The change does make it tougher to run Rhymer by far, but I don't think Imperial bomber wings are entirely out, especially not with the new Quasar carrier and it's ability to sling up to six squadrons at once. You just have to play it more like Rebel bomber lists now.

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For Rebels, I'm looking at Scurrg, X-Wings, and A-Wings supported by 1 or 2 RS Scout HH. It's a mix of high hull, maneuverable squads that must be dealt with. RS let's me deal with those pesky Sloane swarms, with Stronghold being the only problem. It's still a concept and has not yet hit the table. I'm stuck on what to do with Rebels anymore.

For Imps, I don't bother with bombers. Anti-squad is much stronger and more important. Let's you take on Sloane or Rebel bombers.

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The Rhymer nerf hurts but it doesn't really change the bomber wing composition or it's bombing effectiveness. It just means you can't bomb a black dice AA ships without any retaliation and makes it a little easier for your opponent to block them since your bombing window got smaller (it's still considerably larger than the normal bombing ranges). Tie Bombers didn't really care about AA fire anyway with their hefty 5 HP and they are still decent with Ruthless Strategist.

Just for some opposite perspective, playing against Rhymer doesn't really feel any different. Dengar is still a thing.

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15 minutes ago, ImpStarDeuces said:

The Rhymer nerf hurts but it doesn't really change the bomber wing composition or it's bombing effectiveness. It just means you can't bomb a black dice AA ships without any retaliation and makes it a little easier for your opponent to block them since your bombing window got smaller (it's still considerably larger than the normal bombing ranges). Tie Bombers didn't really care about AA fire anyway with their hefty 5 HP and they are still decent with Ruthless Strategist.

Just for some opposite perspective, playing against Rhymer doesn't really feel any different. Dengar is still a thing.

The bigger issue is flying into your opponents squads in order to attack ships. Idk about you, but taking 4 Tie/B into a mess of X-Wings is a bad idea, especially if the main damage output is from squads. Sure, you can not fly directly in, but those squads will catch up to you. With Rhymer, you could force the squads away from the ships.

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Y-Wings are 10 points for a Black Die that shoots at Distance 1.  Its backed up by 6 Hull and Speed 3, and an average anti squadron damage of 0.75.

TIE Bombers are 9 points for a Black Die that shoots at Distance 1.  its backed up by 5 hull and Speed 4, and an average anti squadron damage of 0.75.

 

...

Imps never really needed Rhymer in the first place, far as I'm concerned.  I wish I had TIE Bombers in a Rebel fleet, even where Rhymer wasn't involved...  Every point saved on a Bomber would be something like a HWK turned into an X-Wing in comparison...  (Or an X-Wing into a B-Wing)

He was only ever icing on the cake.  

Lacking him doesn't turn the Cake into a Tortilla.

If you are playing with the concept that Rhymer is the only thing that made Bombing Wings viable...  You've got a very different perspective of the game than I do ;)

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So folks are still running traditional Rhymer balls? Are you still finding it worth the points investment?  I've always enjoyed bombers supported by FC to plink damage but now with TIE interceptors like tossing 6 dice and a counter 3, they're unlikely to punch their way out of that. 

 

 @Undeadguy's thoughts are a mirror to my own for the most part. Bombers just don't punch back hard enough to survive the new alpha strike we're seeing. Although I did have a good time running Jonus recently with a pair of Arquitens and Enhanced Armament. 

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9 minutes ago, draco193 said:

So folks are still running traditional Rhymer balls? Are you still finding it worth the points investment?  I've always enjoyed bombers supported by FC to plink damage but now with TIE interceptors like tossing 6 dice and a counter 3, they're unlikely to punch their way out of that. 

The Tie Int could do that before the Rhymer nerf. I guess that's the point I'm really trying to get at. Rhymer is a little bit more difficult to use since his range got smaller but he still provides a benefit. All just kind of a matter of perspective since it seems like what a lot of people are worried about as Rhymer counters have existed in the game for quite awhile.

Conversely, the black die AA on the bomber is decent, so pair that with a Quasar and RS you can plink for 1 from a black dice, 1 from Ruthless, and flak a huge area with red AA. Might be a decent Sloan counter and you get to keep the AA threat with bombers.

-Edit- the smaller range bubble just makes Dengar more important now.

Edited by ImpStarDeuces

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12 minutes ago, draco193 said:

So folks are still running traditional Rhymer balls? Are you still finding it worth the points investment?  I've always enjoyed bombers supported by FC to plink damage but now with TIE interceptors like tossing 6 dice and a counter 3, they're unlikely to punch their way out of that. 

 

 @Undeadguy's thoughts are a mirror to my own for the most part. Bombers just don't punch back hard enough to survive the new alpha strike we're seeing. Although I did have a good time running Jonus recently with a pair of Arquitens and Enhanced Armament. 

"New" Alpha Strike?

There's nothing new about it... :D Its only  a little cheaper because you're using a Quasar instead of an ISD....  But it was always there.

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36 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Y-Wings are 10 points for a Black Die that shoots at Distance 1.  Its backed up by 6 Hull and Speed 3, and an average anti squadron damage of 0.75.

TIE Bombers are 9 points for a Black Die that shoots at Distance 1.  its backed up by 5 hull and Speed 4, and an average anti squadron damage of 0.75.

Slight correction: 2 blue dice on the Y-Wing produce an average anti-squadron damage of 1, not 0.75.

Otherwise that is correct and I don't meaningfully disagree with your conclusion.

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Just now, Snipafist said:

Slight correction: 2 blue dice on the Y-Wing produce an average anti-squadron damage of 1, not 0.75.

Otherwise that is correct and I don't meaningfully disagree with your conclusion.

You're right!  I ran the wrong modifier (* instead of +)

Simple mistake.  Always willing to be proven wrong, after all :D

 

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34 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

"New" Alpha Strike?

There's nothing new about it... :D Its only  a little cheaper because you're using a Quasar instead of an ISD....  But it was always there.

Oh that I don't disagree with.  My point I guess is that we're moving into a period where air superiority fighters are having a true renaissance. The Alpha Strike against bombers has gotten easier, and more cost effective. 

You can pull off 4 Ints and Howlrunner every turn with The Quasar.  While staying far away from said bomber wing.   And you're actually still cheaper than the old VSD 1 with FC and EHB. Or significantly cheaper than an ISD 1 kitted out. I know we're early in this wave, but I have a feeling this will be a true staple for imperial list building for awhile. 

This resurgence combined with the much smaller threat footprint I think leaves TIE bombers in a spot where they're going to have a tough time making an impact as they had before. 

If others though are finding the standard bomber wing still effective though it's something I'll need to tweak a bit again. I do agree with @ImpStarDeuces about the Dengar+Soontir combo potentially seeing a hefty revival.  

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1 minute ago, draco193 said:

If others though are finding the standard bomber wing still effective though it's something I'll need to tweak a bit again. I do agree with @ImpStarDeuces about the Dengar+Soontir combo potentially seeing a hefty revival.  

As to the bomber wing being effective, on a pure damage analysis, the Rhymer ball is basically the same. People loved it before the bomber command center, sold their left chestnut when you could double up the BCC, and now post nerf it seems like people forgot how happy they were with the bombers before. They are still 8 point speed 4 bombers throwing black dice AND you can still BCC them (just maybe not fish for the crit like you used too). They are still good.

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I have always been a heavy imperial bomber user, I just like the way they function and the options on the table more than their rebel counterparts.

I will admit Rhymer was always an auto include, and it has been an adjustment to a post rhymer world. However, I have been finding that I am adapting to the age of fighter heavy imperial fleets relatively well, and even am finding it more FUN to run bombers. It is more risky, takes more skill, and I get a huge kick out of beating the crap out of interceptors.

In that sense, nerfing Rhymer does what FFG hoped it would- open up squadron builds to move different directions and experiment rather than a formulaic add Rhymer, bomb from blue.

You just need to make sure every squadron you take has a purpose. This is what I am currently running-

Valen Rudor, Colonel Jendon, Lambda, Maarek Stele, Jumpmaster, Morna Kee, Gamma Squadron, Zertic Strom

Only two "Bombers" (Morna Kee does about as well as a bomber though, and Jendon is situationally a Maarek Clone) but tons of flexibility. Morna Kee is my wave 6 hero absolutely eating Sloane interceptors with her refreshing brace, rerolls, counter, and big hull. Zertic is interceptor protection for Jendon, Maarek, and Gamma while they do their bombing, and Valen is to kill anything with counter, such as the dread Soontir/Dengar. Valenx2 thanks to Jendon will at very least remove a scatter without taking counter dice, allowing for easy removal by Morna/Maarek. Jumpmaster is there to make sure I always have the option of going for ships so my squads always are generating threat, even when they aren't bombing. Jendon is what makes this list sing. He gives it an insane amount of flexibility. I can double Valen to kill a counter squad, or double Maarek for killer bombing. Morna Kee is like a Maarek/Valen hybrid that I can tap with Jendon any time to have her attack in the squad phase and flip her brace for rerolls, then activate her with rogue later to refresh the brace. The generic Lamba is there for relay 4 with Jendon, and as second player insurance with strategic objectives it can heavily abuse for massive points gains.

There are no squads in my fleet without an essential role. Every squad can benefit from rerolls, making Morna/Valens 3 dice almost always hit 3 damage, Zertic super dangerous, and Maarek and Gamma with BCC and Maareks auto crit pushing tons of ship damage. I almost never miss any of my shots.

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On paper, Squall should be able to compensate somewhat for the Rhymer nerf.

Before, you could send a Rhymer ball out distance 4 before shooting at medium range.

Using Squall, you can send out Rhymer, and two tie bombers out distance 6 before shooting at close range. 

Additionally, Tie Bombers are great targets for Ruthless Strategists at 5 hull and only 9 points. Throw RS on the Quasar and you can run a more potent bomber list with strong AA.

 

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2 hours ago, SoonerTed said:

As an Imperial player, I like the nerf to Rhymer.  It means Quad Laser Cannons has a use against other Imperial fleets.

Totally forgot about this card. Still probably too niche, though. Which is sad, because it isn't too bad of a card.

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Just now, ianediger said:

Totally forgot about this card. Still probably too niche, though. Which is sad, because it isn't too bad of a card.

It's a great card on VSD-I's and Raider-I's.  If they are going to get plinked by bombers, they should really plink back ;)

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20 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

So we are all agreed.

Kallas Quasar Ruthless Strategist with Demo Ruthless Strategist, 13 Tie Bombers and Mauler. 

I would say the Tie Bomber has never had it so good. 

That Demo build makes me want to puke. It's just so wrong. 

But I'm sure it's quite effective with the Glad II.

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34 minutes ago, ianediger said:

Totally forgot about this card. Still probably too niche, though. Which is sad, because it isn't too bad of a card.

I'm actually surprised so few are looking at QLTs. It's not just good against Rhymer, but Sloane bombing runs too.

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18 minutes ago, Destraa said:

I'm actually surprised so few are looking at QLTs. It's not just good against Rhymer, but Sloane bombing runs too.

It's probably because there are usually some better upgrades in the ORetro slot. Carriers want EHB or BC, sometimes RLB. Fast-attack brawlers will want the Boarding upgrades if they have a Weapons team slot available, and if not usually leave it empty. Regular gunships will either leave it empty, or take tractor beams. So it's not a question of "Why is no one using it?", it's a question of "Why is it not a good points investment yet?"

 

While it might be a good points investment now, it's been a 'bad' card for so long, people are used to not giving it a second thought.

Edited by ianediger

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