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Carolina Krayts is the best X-Wing podcast

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13 minutes ago, pheaver said:

This is pretty much what I feel is boring.  The moves are pretty obvious, and the games aren't exciting to watch.  It doesn't feel like I'm learning much.  Agree that the game is still way better than any 1.0 meta!

I've been running the "Jake" variant of beef as the "thing" in the Cassian, Braylen, Wedge + "Thing" archetype and he really opens up the list a bit.  Depending on games he can split off with Wedge as flankers and help double mod Wedge.  Or Cassian can coordinate to Wedge with a pre-move boost, get a focus back from Jake, and then Wedge opens the foils and guns it.  Braylen is equally squirrel'y with Cassian plucking off stress and keeping that dial wide open.  Or sometimes you hand Braylen a focus with Jake then shove him ahead with a 4fwd and stress him on the way into range of something.  And none of those have added in Leia who is constantly there lurking in the back seat of the U-wing and keeping your opponent on their toes.   It's a list that can just straight up joust and win *most* matches.  Or it can split up and setup decent killboxes and use Leia for a modded reset turn.  

The foundations of that list are probably 10-15 points too cheap.  Cassian is so stupidly undercosted and should absolutely be the most expensive U-wing.  Braylen never needed to go down in price.  And Leia has been argued into oblivion.  

I struggle to call it a "boring" list though.  Jake sort of pushes it to a slighly more shifty and versatile style than straight up "JOUST ME!".

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20 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

This is the primary reason why I'm not currently considering bringing Rebel Beef to the next tournament I play, but I would strongly caution against any sort of movement suggesting that we balance the game around what is fun for the spectator. I don't think that is what you are suggesting @pheaver but I could see some people moving that way.

Yeah, if Rebel Beef was the best list going into an event I wanted to win, I'd play it without a second thought.  But if I want to learn and improve my skills, I run something else.  Lately, I've been doing the Anakin Mace 2x Torrent list to get better at double repo aces.  I'm thinking about working on a vulture swarm with that new tac droid once the Hyena releases in a few weeks to play with those mechanics.

And definitely don't balance the game around spectator fun!  In an ideal world, every faction makes the cut at a 15-25% rate, and if a faction is significantly higher or lower than that, the points should fix that.  Also, there should be more than one viable list for each faction.

 

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2 minutes ago, pheaver said:

Yeah, if Rebel Beef was the best list going into an event I wanted to win, I'd play it without a second thought.  But if I want to learn and improve my skills, I run something else.  Lately, I've been doing the Anakin Mace 2x Torrent list to get better at double repo aces.  I'm thinking about working on a vulture swarm with that new tac droid once the Hyena releases in a few weeks to play with those mechanics.

And definitely don't balance the game around spectator fun!  In an ideal world, every faction makes the cut at a 15-25% rate, and if a faction is significantly higher or lower than that, the points should fix that.  Also, there should be more than one viable list for each faction.

 

I've been playing a very similar list for very similar reasons, though I've been switching Ahsoka in and out for Mace and I think I prefer Ahsoka right now.

It'll take some real strange things happening to convince me to play Vulture droids though.

I don't know if I'd take the Jedi and Torrents to an HST, right now I'm between bringing 5A again and playing Vader, Soontir, and 2 Barrage Bombers. 

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10 minutes ago, viedit said:

I struggle to call it a "boring" list though.  Jake sort of pushes it to a slighly more shifty and versatile style than straight up "JOUST ME!".

Yes, Rebel Beef doesn't HAVE to be a boring list.  It's entirely possible to fly it like that, even without a nimble ship like Jake.  And, I think, Beef players might end up with stronger results if they played it with Wedge as an I6 flanker ace, instead of having him hang out with the B-Wing Brothers and Cassian.

Also, the turn one "Leia, Cassian stops, coordinates a boost to Wedge" is pretty fun, and it's not like you'll need Leia for a few turns.  Doing that lets you do turn one 4 forwards with the B-Wings too.

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25 minutes ago, viedit said:

I've been running the "Jake" variant of beef as the "thing" in the Cassian, Braylen, Wedge + "Thing" archetype and he really opens up the list a bit.  Depending on games he can split off with Wedge as flankers and help double mod Wedge.  Or Cassian can coordinate to Wedge with a pre-move boost, get a focus back from Jake, and then Wedge opens the foils and guns it.  Braylen is equally squirrel'y with Cassian plucking off stress and keeping that dial wide open.  Or sometimes you hand Braylen a focus with Jake then shove him ahead with a 4fwd and stress him on the way into range of something.  And none of those have added in Leia who is constantly there lurking in the back seat of the U-wing and keeping your opponent on their toes.   It's a list that can just straight up joust and win *most* matches.  Or it can split up and setup decent killboxes and use Leia for a modded reset turn.  

The foundations of that list are probably 10-15 points too cheap.  Cassian is so stupidly undercosted and should absolutely be the most expensive U-wing.  Braylen never needed to go down in price.  And Leia has been argued into oblivion.  

I struggle to call it a "boring" list though.  Jake sort of pushes it to a slighly more shifty and versatile style than straight up "JOUST ME!".

Okay, that's kind of cool.

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1 hour ago, Brunas said:

 

No, I don't think X-Wing is currently worse than before.  Frankly, current X-Wing is better than it's ever been over the history of the game - but from talking to people, you wouldn't know that it's the case.  People seem to be having less fun, and that's what I'm curious on.  Are we all just old and jaded?

its the most fun it's ever been, but personally:

1) it being better makes me more acutely aware of when I see things that aren't good, so there's grump about facing it, but more grump about how 2e was supposed to bring balance to the force, not destroy it
2) OP rollout has been rocky and not well communicated. Adding a bunch of ships into hyperspace because a bunch of casuals prefer vomitting stream of conscious list archetypes and complained about it enough was pretty scary. We're super subject to the masses yelling loudly enough for vader defender and FFG caving*.

*unless its premaneuver repositioning, that apparently stays no matter how much we complain

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13 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

FFG initially promised 3 month point adjustments. I would like that.

CHAOS META BEST META

 

I wrote a blogpost some weeks ago on the 8 kinds of fun and how they relate to Xwing, but never finished it because eh.

One of them is 'discovery', which imo happens in xwing by the uncharted territory after releases or point changes. Some love, some don't like it at all.

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Ric Olié seems like he could be the perfect budget I5 that punches above his weight class. Move aside, Lulo! When this man charges at full blast, he automatically turns into a TIE Defender against anything whose speed is capped at 4 or slower! That's a massive gamut of ships! R4-P17 doesn't seem like too bad of a droid then, for after that engagement, unless your adversary avoids those very tempting 2 speed maneuvers (Soontir, Poe, Jedi, Vultures, TIE fighters, Strikers, etc., gotta watch out!), you still are a TIE Defender! Did you also notice that those 3 banks are blue, so that after your 1-action red maneuver you can go back to bonkers mode? Or perhaps an R2 astro is a better choice, so that as you cycle your disengage at breakneck speeds, you can regen your health, giving you the effective 4 shield and 3 hull of a TIE Defender!!!!!!!! :D

This makes me legit giddy for hyperspace. I've been enjoying it with FO mostly, given that all the other factions have very solved metas in which you choose 1 highly optimized list out of an absolute maximum of 3 from whatever faction you're playing. The customizability this entire chassis offers, even in this pilot alone, should spice up Republic (named ARCs and V19's should have, but apparently FFG wants you to fly only the generics of those things).

Is the N-1 the TIE Defender's entrance to hyperspace? Sadly, no, given that Ric's turning into a TIE/D is only situational. But Empire tech in the Empire's forefather faction is fun nevertheless! And even if he is costed silly, he has a high enough skill ceiling to squeeze value out of those points. If Monster Ultra is a decent enough substitute for Monster, I surely can accept this as a holdover for a Defender!

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1 hour ago, pheaver said:

Yeah, if Rebel Beef was the best list going into an event I wanted to win, I'd play it without a second thought.  But if I want to learn and improve my skills, I run something else.  Lately, I've been doing the Anakin Mace 2x Torrent list to get better at double repo aces.  I'm thinking about working on a vulture swarm with that new tac droid once the Hyena releases in a few weeks to play with those mechanics.

Tangent from that, what squads right now that are at least moderately competitive that you'd take to something as high as a Hyperspace Trial that you'd consider good squads to learn from and/or improve skills in a certain aspect? Seems like an interesting list to build out @Boom Owl

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2 hours ago, Brunas said:

This is kinda my main concern with points changes.  Let me see if I can say it well enough to make any sense...

 

Before (in 1e), if you weren't happy about the state of the game, or what was good, or whatever, the options were basically:

1. just stop playing

2. complain enough to try and get an errata

 

Generally only 1-2 things got an errata a year, so really the first was the real option.  Now that we know points will change, perfect is always the enemy of the good.  We'll never be happy.

 

That being said, points changing (combined with worlds being invite only) does lead to some horrible meta behavior, I think.  Because people know they need to win or do stupidly well at an even to get their coveted worlds invite, they're playing more or less exclusively cancer/low burden of execution lists.  That, combined with the people who don't care also smoking it while they've got it with the current good stuff, trying to get events in with the current flavor of the month before it gets nerfed.

 

Imagine if points were variable in the height of palp defenders.  Would anyone have bothered looking for real meta counters, or instead just play it because it's easy and it'll get mixed up in 0-6 months anyways?  We didn't have an option before, and I think the options might be making people less happy.

I feel like this has led to a general decline in content in 2.0. We're getting spikes of analysis after points changes and waves, but we're not getting people drilling down into matchups and counters, exactly because it's not clear what the future will hold. 

My modus operandi is to pick a squad and just run it against all the meta stuff for months until I have developed strategies against the top stuff.  Now, I don't have strong incentive to do that, I just try some lists out and see if it "feels good".  If you're aiming for long term development, you can't push the limit on squad efficiency, because it might just be gone next change.  If you're developing stuff that's likely "safe", it's probably not at the top of the power curve, and it might be bad against the next good meta thing.  

I actually am not unhappy with any of these facts. The world of X-wing is still way better than most times in 2.0.  I just think we haven't adapted to how we're going to talk about stuff.  There's a shift needed, I think, to move from list conversations to archetype conversations, and we just don't know how to do it.  

41 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Okay, that's kind of cool.

If only you knew someone that was running 4 ship Rebels with Jake.  

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Dreadai said:

4 ship rebel isn't a problem in my view. Unless there is a bump to all rebel ships, the archetype is going to stay.  The ships you choose from may change, but remember, there are cheaper, good options that are currently not making it into lists because there are better options.  Increase Braylen, Cassian and Leia and suddenly you push a Y-Wing ace in there instead of the second B-Wing, or Sabine shuttle. 

Comparing Leia to contraband cybernetics is also a huge straw man ... that one upgrade is overcosted doesn't follow that something comparable is undercosted. Id rather see cybernetics come down (Bear in mind that it opens it up as an option for a good number of rebel ships too in the renegades and freighters)

I'm disappointed, but not surprised that this thread is degenerating into a microcosm of the main forums. It used to be somewhere to get decent discussion ... now its just pages of people whining about a list that thumped them, but doing it over 500 words, with pictures in a hope it comes across as intellectual, rather than just salt.

 

#makekraytsthreadcontentagain

Edited by FlyingAnchors

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21 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

There's a shift needed, I think, to move from list conversations to archetype conversations, and we just don't know how to do it. 

Not sure I agree with that entirely, the part where we don't know how to do that. Look at the Rebel Beef discussion, back in 1.0 after months and months of rehashing we'd be talking about the Jake version of the list as completely and utterly separate list (see past discussions around Palp Aces where swapping out one card was considered by some to be revolutionary...). But now it's just any 4 Rebel ships with 5+ HPs and Leia

26 minutes ago, RStan said:

Tangent from that, what squads right now that are at least moderately competitive that you'd take to something as high as a Hyperspace Trial that you'd consider good squads to learn from and/or improve skills in a certain aspect?

Unironic answer, and what I'll be running for the next couple weeks, is Sith Bros since I've noticed I need to work on remembering all my triggers and it has a ton of them

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34 minutes ago, RStan said:

Tangent from that, what squads right now that are at least moderately competitive that you'd take to something as high as a Hyperspace Trial that you'd consider good squads to learn from and/or improve skills in a certain aspect?

It's definitely differs person-by-person.  Basically, do you look at the lists on ListFortress and go "That looks really interesting, but I can't fly XYZ."?  If so, and you want to get better, then just build it and fly it.

For example, I sucked at flying Reapers.  I enjoyed the ship, but whenever I tried it out I always ended up being bad at it.  I made a list and tweaked it over the course of ... a month or two, via Vassal and local events.  I took my final list (Soontir, Vermeil, Feroph, Gideon) and brought it to local events, up to the local HST.

After that, I noticed I wasn't very good at the Soontir part of that list.  So I wanted to run multiple double-repo aces, which led to the Republic faction.  For that one, I just netlisted the standard Anakin Mace 2x Torrent list, enjoyed it, and there we went.  A lot less effort!  Again, Vassal and local events built up my skills with it, and now I'd feel comfortable taking it to an HST.  Looking at the new article, an N1 instead of the Torrents would be interesting to try out too.

Now, I'm seeing that Vultures aren't doing well.  I want to see if the new tac droid will help them, so I'll probably make up a list and try that next in my local events.

It's all about not getting stuck in a rut with a certain style of play, so that you remain flexible in a changing meta.  Just netlist anything that does well that isn't in your comfort zone.

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4 minutes ago, Scott Pilgrim2 said:

Echoing that N1s will probably kill the VT-19 unless points get crazy.

I don't think so.  If I had to pull a number out of my rear....N1's are in the 32+ point range.  That's 7 more than a gold torrent.  Two of them are 14 points more than two golds.  A lot of lists can't afford that shift in points.  They won't "replace" torrents.  They will just make for different list types. 

If I want mass swarmy/blocky/space occupiers I'm still going for torrents.

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3 hours ago, Brunas said:

No, I don't think X-Wing is currently worse than before.  Frankly, current X-Wing is better than it's ever been over the history of the game - but from talking to people, you wouldn't know that it's the case.  People seem to be having less fun, and that's what I'm curious on.  Are we all just old and jaded?

Interestingly, on a recent episode of our podcast, I asked my co-hosts exactly the opposite question: "Is it just me, or does it seem like people are bringing more of what they find fun to play that they did in 1E?"  Despite Rebel Beef, despite Habba the Cut ( ... it's never gonna happen, is it?), I'm still having more fun playing that I did in the whole last quarter of 1E, and my question still stands ... albeit with the caveat that I don't travel to play in the big tournaments.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

"Is it just me, or does it seem like people are bringing more of what they find fun to play that they did in 1E?"  

I think so.  The only thing I've heard people bemoaning if they should bring "broken stuff" was quad phantoms to an extended event.  Like, they didn't really want to, but felt they should.  No one is doing that anything else, that I've heard.  In 1.0, there was a lot of gnashing of teeth over feeling forced into some broken nonsense.  

Again, I don't really have a problem with most of the "broken" stuff being played.  It's just when someone wins with it, I kinda roll my eyes and think, "Well, yeah...one of you with list X was probably going to win."

Edited by gennataos

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, player3010587 said:

Ric Olié seems like he could be the perfect budget I5 that punches above his weight class. Move aside, Lulo!

This all depends on him being actually a lower weight class.

Ric Olie can throw 5 dice Juke Proton Torpedoes.  I don't see that being cheap.

Edited by theBitterFig

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38 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Interestingly, on a recent episode of our podcast, I asked my co-hosts exactly the opposite question: "Is it just me, or does it seem like people are bringing more of what they find fun to play that they did in 1E?"  Despite Rebel Beef, despite Habba the Cut ( ... it's never gonna happen, is it?), I'm still having more fun playing that I did in the whole last quarter of 1E, and my question still stands ... albeit with the caveat that I don't travel to play in the big tournaments.

This seems to hold truth to me, in this part of the world.

At a major event, people are gonna look at bringing a meta list, if what they love is not cutting it. 

Locally, I run into so many different things. Netlists are not terribly common.  Aspects of them are, but people fill them with their own quirks. Often, there'll be 1 in 4 or so, and one of them will likely win the tourney.

But game by game, it's not even close to an issue. Playing the netlist is like a special challenge, rather than yet another game against that

If I attended Nationals at the end of the month, I may well get tired of beef after 3+ solid games of it, but it's a totally different kind of scene and not the norm. So I'm not fussed. I'll play the same players here as I would there, I'll just meet less new ones.

Even then, the people I know who travelled to the UKSO said there was not half the netlists they expected, or had seen before. But ofc, there, more people are bringing the lists and more are rising to the top, as you'd expect and there's your big data point.

X Wing seems very happy and healthy to me. But old and jaded is very much a thing. Often, you want the thrill and intrigue of when you were young and free with the thing. You can't get that back. Now the thing is all new and shiny and fresh, it just makes you melancholic for the good old days .....and jealous because your good old days were actually rubbish compared to these new and shiny future days where the thing is even better while you're just a grumpy old waster who never had it this good. Burn it all down. Dam n kids, get off my lawn.

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6 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

But old and jaded is very much a thing. Often, you want the thrill and intrigue of when you were young and free with the thing. You can't get that back. Now the thing is all new and shiny and fresh, it just makes you melancholic for the good old days .....and jealous because your good old days were actually rubbish compared to these new and shiny future days where the thing is even better while you're just a grumpy old waster who never had it this good. Burn it all down. Dam n kids, get off my lawn.

So much this. There is so much negativity generally in the nerd space these days, and I simply have no patience with it any more.

its like the internet has incentivized negativity as the peak form of commentary. Blech, I rather would celebrate what’s good, not look for coffee cups to drone on about. X-wing is in a happy place.

At CAC I flew a concoction of mine I really enjoy. Not meta at all, but not entirely non meta either. But I bucked many trends. Echo and a Sigma with Juke, naked Vermiel and Pure Sabaac. All I4, and no bid. Pure crazy talk I know, and sacrilege to what the hive mind says is good and needed.

But it is tremendously fun for me, and the fact is I do not care about moving first. Would I give this list to a beginner? Absolutely not! But I’m a firm believer in being the change you want, so I intentionally reject the I5’s/I6 meta we have.

And I faced some rebel beef. And a Wedge Han Jake list with it. Wins of 200-22 and 200-119. The secret is forcing the opponent to bad choices. I set up my ships with Echo and Sigma at about range 1.5 from the board edge on opposite sides (to allow decloak to the edge). Set the Striker and reaper evenly spaced in the middle. Slow roll them while going fast with phantoms. Echo decloaks to edge and hard turns to hug the board edge. The Sigma decloaks forward and hard turns at the appropriate speed to get to range 3 of projected spots. See this forces my opponent to either turn towards one phantom, which will be turtles up at range 3, allowing the rest of my list to zoom in and flank. To split fire, which Phantoms do well 1 on 1, and typically require multiple shots to reliably bring down. Or to run the middle and take out the Aileron ships, giving free reign to flank.

Do you know what happens when Rebel beef gets flanked from both sides? It dies.

So the beef list decided to try and joust the Reaper and Striker (it was 3 double tap Ys including Dutch, Advanced Protons, and Cassian). The Reaper intentionally bumps the lead ship, Sabaac aileron right, hard left around a rock to avoid the joust while getting shots, and both Phantoms flanked as planned. A Y wing dies before getting shots, and range control meant that the Reaper only gets lightly touched (no half points). Repeat and in the end the game was over in 5 rounds of shooting.

While this wasn’t he dominant flavor of beef, the principle still works. Wedge is the biggest risk for this list, as the ships all are particularly vulnerable to him. So while beef is trouble, if you have a list capable of exploiting their weaknesses it can be fast.

Thing is there are so many flavors of beef that there is no one skeleton key. 4 barrage bomb K’s is very different than the double tap ys, is very different than a Wedge and friends foursome. None have proved unbeatable. All require care. The only thing I take issue with is that Leia is so cheap that it makes even the slow and rigid ships like Y’s more maneuverable than the Dark Lord of the Sith. But bump Leia and maybe Wedge and I’m more or less fine with it. It’s nothing like Dengaroo, which made me literally stop flying my preferred ships and faction for a year.

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