Jump to content
SaltMaster 5000

Carolina Krayts is the best X-Wing podcast

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

So on the Beef thing

The Rebel Beef i have no issues with being good is stuff like UXXYY

However, I do have issue with Cassian Braylen Wedge, Friend (jake, biggs, whatever)

Generic jousting squads see use not because they are good, but because the lists are easy to make- we are reaching a similar state to 1.0's Stage 4 Rebels in that the Glue has been concocted- a list of all named pilots is once again the best at jousting. I have no issue with generic jousters.

Once again, it's the same damned thing causing it- Words. Pilot abilities are still underpriced, and comically so.

Words allow something other than good dial choices to allow you to mitigate dice randomness, and they do so at a higher Init (more perfect info to opportunistically arc dodge, chance to Init kill for No Nonsequences)- FFG needs to price pilot abilities properly.

As is tradition, i'd like to remind you all just how bad the generic TIE Strikers, especially the Black Squadron Scout at 38 points, are. Either FFG needs to cut the price of low-health-low-agi generics massively (Strikers are more frail than a Z-95, and CIS as a faction has 2 of their ships beimg unplayable(16-17 is a fair point for Vultures)), or Words need massive nerfs.

Edited by Kaptin Krunch

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, RStan said:

Why are you on Reddit anyway? 

Good question!  Boredom?  

My bile for "I won with Rebel Beef!" posts is I just don't think it's all that hard or impressive.  It's 1.0 defenders.  Fly at stuff, do a little range control, turn around, do it again.  The Trial this last weekend in Little Rock, Arkansas, something like 28 players, 6 of the top 8 were Rebel beef.  I heard they jousted TIE swarms and won, somehow.  Sure, it'll take some skill to be the top beef on the pile, but someone was going to get there. 

I get people are excited, I don't blame them, and I don't really mean to disparage them.  Nor do I blame them for taking the list.  It's just...man, as someone who doesn't like the jousting play style and is usually playing some snowflake ace-y stuff to mediocre results, I cannot express properly just how easy the game feels when I do try out a top tier jousting list.  

This, though? This seems like a pretty cool win.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Can’t help but hope hyperspace loses a couple ships when wave 4 comes out ;)  no u wing or reaper/striker would be pretty interesting(not sure if they are will to touch the tie advanced since they said certain ships in hyperspace are staples....not that ffg has any actual concrete rules for hyperspace)

 

just saying it it would be nice for the next month to 2 months of trials befor the points change

Edited by TheOz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, TheOz said:

Can’t help but hope hyperspace loses a couple ships when wave 4 comes out ;)  no u wing or reaper/striker would be pretty interesting(not sure if they are will to touch the tie advanced since they said certain ships in hyperspace are staples....not that ffg has any actual concrete rules for hyperspace)

No Striker would be the exact same place we are in currently. The Strikers are awful and are seeing zero use.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Dreadai said:

4 ship rebel isn't a problem in my view. Unless there is a bump to all rebel ships, the archetype is going to stay.  The ships you choose from may change, but remember, there are cheaper, good options that are currently not making it into lists because there are better options.  Increase Braylen, Cassian and Leia and suddenly you push a Y-Wing ace in there instead of the second B-Wing, or Sabine shuttle. 

I agree, 4 ship Rebel isn't a problem. Even with the pilots involved. There is just too much going on with Leia. I'm also of the opinion Wedge could do with a 2 point price hike, and he'll still be competitively viable. However, you also kind of making the point: those other good options aren't in there because there are better options. The point is not to kill the archetype. The point is to gently push the archetype down a peg. Leia-less 4 ship has already done well and that is great. We don't want to see it go away, but we also don't want to see it be 40% of the meta. Pull Ten out and add in Norra Y or Horton or Sabine and the list drops a peg.

3 hours ago, Dreadai said:

Comparing Leia to contraband cybernetics is also a huge straw man ... that one upgrade is overcosted doesn't follow that something comparable is undercosted. Id rather see cybernetics come down (Bear in mind that it opens it up as an option for a good number of rebel ships too in the renegades and freighters)

I also agree with this. Leia is completely different: she is a force multiplier that makes all your ships in the list better, and is reduced in value as she loses ships. However, at 2 points she'd be worth taking on some ships even if she only gave the ship she was on a white flip.

3 hours ago, Dreadai said:

I'm disappointed, but not surprised that this thread is degenerating into a microcosm of the main forums. It used to be somewhere to get decent discussion ... now its just pages of people whining about a list that thumped them, but doing it over 500 words, with pictures in a hope it comes across as intellectual, rather than just salt.

Glad you are too intelligent to hang here with the plebs. Now I feel like I wasted my words above trying to have what I thought was intelligent discussion, but now I realize that all I've done is expose my stupidity to someone obviously more intellectual than I am.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

The problem I do have with the list is that it forces me to play lame, and that taints the whole experience of playing, and essentially makes me rather not play than play this matchup*. There was an obstacle free corner in the southeast. He went there as fast as possible and stayed there. At that point I have two options: I play the long game and wait until he comes to me (at a final salvo of 8 vs 12...) or I joust him anyway. Approaching from 3  directions doesn't help because he has no bad choice: if he takes out an ace then the game is lost for me. If he goes for a generic then he can initiative kill it. And he only has to cover 2 directions as he's in the corner. As I said, I made plenty mistakes. But at least one of them was to approach, and it sucks that this is a mistake.

So yeah, I've changed my mind on rebel beef. I don't like to play the matchup anymore. My guess is that I could previously rely on opponents making mistakes, but by now they have figured out how to play it well.

Requoting because it aligns with my feelings as well (unfun, particularly from the boring metric)

 

6 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Now, I don't think it is too strong a list, but it should clock in at 200 points instead of 194. Leia up 3, Cassian, Ten and Braylen up 1 (or nothing up on Cassian)  and then the list is still possible but has no additional tricks.

Disagree a bit here, but from the perspective that 1) it breaks a 'core" game rule, so it's worth more and 2) cassian is now comically the most played u-wing. I personally believe cassian should be the most expensive u-wing pilot, whatever the u-wing price changes as a chassis are.

 

 

6 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

*I understand the irony that I was on the opposite side some weeks/pages ago when Travis made that point...

You're allowed to change your opinions based on new data and experience. I used to prefer hyperspace... :( 

 

 

5 hours ago, AceWing said:

The problem with that whole scenario is final salvo, the stupidest way to resolve a game ever.  FFG never should have listened to those complaining about draws. Now they have a bigger problem, fortressing combined with final salvo.  You can minimize fortressing by disincentiving draws in game. A draw is usually a punishment in Swiss.

 

5 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Sure, but even then it is a game that I don't like to play. I don't want to wait 75min (or 2h on vassal), that's not what I sign up for and making it the smart choice is boring.

^^^ both of these, simultaneously.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Dreadai said:

I'm disappointed, but not surprised that this thread is degenerating into a microcosm of the main forums. It used to be somewhere to get decent discussion ... now its just pages of people whining about a list that thumped them, but doing it over 500 words, with pictures in a hope it comes across as intellectual, rather than just salt.

I'm not sure what you want. The strategy is pretty straightforward, and has been lined out here multiple times - it's just boring. 

Additionally, approximately 40-50% of the meta is two archetypes (slightly lower in hyperspace, except rebel beef numbers remain around 25%). It's just boring/unfun - not confusing.

 

19 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

The point is not to kill the archetype. The point is to gently push the archetype down a peg. Leia-less 4 ship has already done well and that is great. We don't want to see it go away, but we also don't want to see it be 40% of the meta. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

7 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I'm not sure what you want. The strategy is pretty straightforward, and has been lined out here multiple times - it's just boring. 

More interesting discussions that just week by week flipping across the lists that are 'overpowered' or 'boring' because they don't align with how you want to play the game. Time for me to check out, maybe next time I look in here ya'll will have decided you like the game again, or let the thread die ... either would be good.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, Dreadai said:

 

More interesting discussions that just week by week flipping across the lists that are 'overpowered' or 'boring' because they don't align with how you want to play the game. Time for me to check out, maybe next time I look in here ya'll will have decided you like the game again, or let the thread die ... either would be good.

bye?

 

Edit: for what it's worth - I used to get daily updates on this thread, and I unsubscribed from that. Now I just check in weekly or so. Sometimes I have something to say - other times I dont.

Like, it's fine to check out?

Edited by Tlfj200

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, Dreadai said:

More interesting discussions that just week by week flipping across the lists that are 'overpowered' or 'boring' because they don't align with how you want to play the game. Time for me to check out, maybe next time I look in here ya'll will have decided you like the game again, or let the thread die ... either would be good.

I'm (not) sorry the discussion doesn't align with how you want to talk about the game.  Why not just walk away instead of announcing that you're walking away?

I love the game.  I just am unwilling to celebrate things which I don't think is much of an achievement.  

Edited by gennataos

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, Dreadai said:

More interesting discussions that just week by week flipping across the lists that are 'overpowered' or 'boring' because they don't align with how you want to play the game. Time for me to check out, maybe next time I look in here ya'll will have decided you like the game again, or let the thread die ... either would be good.

This is kinda my main concern with points changes.  Let me see if I can say it well enough to make any sense...

 

Before (in 1e), if you weren't happy about the state of the game, or what was good, or whatever, the options were basically:

1. just stop playing

2. complain enough to try and get an errata

 

Generally only 1-2 things got an errata a year, so really the first was the real option.  Now that we know points will change, perfect is always the enemy of the good.  We'll never be happy.

 

That being said, points changing (combined with worlds being invite only) does lead to some horrible meta behavior, I think.  Because people know they need to win or do stupidly well at an even to get their coveted worlds invite, they're playing more or less exclusively cancer/low burden of execution lists.  That, combined with the people who don't care also smoking it while they've got it with the current good stuff, trying to get events in with the current flavor of the month before it gets nerfed.

 

Imagine if points were variable in the height of palp defenders.  Would anyone have bothered looking for real meta counters, or instead just play it because it's easy and it'll get mixed up in 0-6 months anyways?  We didn't have an option before, and I think the options might be making people less happy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

Alright, hot new Leia take:

Maybe we admit that as players we didn't fully recognize or best use her powers, and she should get set back to 8? Everyone who plays in the competitive scene should apologize for not solving Leia based lists fast enough to prevent this monstrosity.

That, and when she was 8, it was a very different meta:
 

  1. cheap(er) proton torps
  2. cheaper redline
  3. crew on whisper (vader)
  4. Supernatural Reflexes was 12, flat
  5. Juke was 4 (mostly unaffected, but technically a difference)

 

Probably other stuff there, but as a quick take.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

Alright, hot new Leia take:

Maybe we admit that as players we didn't fully recognize or best use her powers, and she should get set back to 8? Everyone who plays in the competitive scene should apologize for not solving Leia based lists fast enough to prevent this monstrosity.

 

8 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:
  1. cheap(er) proton torps

Pretty much this, I think.  People couldn't see the Leia forest for the torp trees.  I know I started off Rebel 1.0 with a u-wing, wedge and a rotation of X-Wings, but never considered Leia because I could get a double-modded proton torp for Wedge and alpha was all the rage.  My bad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Brunas said:

That being said, points changing (combined with worlds being invite only) does lead to some horrible meta behavior, I think.  Because people know they need to win or do stupidly well at an even to get their coveted worlds invite, they're playing more or less exclusively cancer/low burden of execution lists.  That, combined with the people who don't care also smoking it while they've got it with the current good stuff, trying to get events in with the current flavor of the month before it gets nerfed.

I'm going to preface this response with "This is a knee-jerk reaction and my opinion is likely to change as this gets discussed" because there is a lot to this.

So I agree that at least some players are being lazy, but I'm not sure innovation is dead. Hatchetman showed up to fight the 4 Phantom menace, and there are some other lists out there that can bully phantoms too. With the speed of the internet, the couple of weeks that 4 ship Rebel has dominated feels like forever but really I don't think we've had enough time to see those innovators find the anti-beef lists, and a 40% meta is a ripe place to bring such a list. 

The primary complaints these days are that lists are boring to play against, which is a lot better than "bring this list or lose". Even Handbrake Han hasn't exactly broken the meta despite being the lamest thing in 2.0 to date. Leia Beef is boring while being a touch better than most of the competition.

As far as the Worlds invite combined with the points changes making the meta decisions bad, is X-Wing today actually worse than pretty much every meta starting with the original triple Jumpmasters? Legit asking, I was one of the people who quit the game starting there and didn't resurface until 2.0 showed up.

13 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

That, and when she was 8, it was a very different meta:
 

  1. cheap(er) proton torps
  2. cheaper redline
  3. crew on whisper (vader)
  4. Supernatural Reflexes was 12, flat
  5. Juke was 4 (mostly unaffected, but technically a difference)

 

Probably other stuff there, but as a quick take.

Listen, you aren't wrong but I saw a chance to bring out the torches and pitchforks and so I took a shot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

I'm going to preface this response with "This is a knee-jerk reaction and my opinion is likely to change as this gets discussed" because there is a lot to this.

So I agree that at least some players are being lazy, but I'm not sure innovation is dead. Hatchetman showed up to fight the 4 Phantom menace, and there are some other lists out there that can bully phantoms too. With the speed of the internet, the couple of weeks that 4 ship Rebel has dominated feels like forever but really I don't think we've had enough time to see those innovators find the anti-beef lists, and a 40% meta is a ripe place to bring such a list. 

The primary complaints these days are that lists are boring to play against, which is a lot better than "bring this list or lose". Even Handbrake Han hasn't exactly broken the meta despite being the lamest thing in 2.0 to date. Leia Beef is boring while being a touch better than most of the competition.

As far as the Worlds invite combined with the points changes making the meta decisions bad, is X-Wing today actually worse than pretty much every meta starting with the original triple Jumpmasters? Legit asking, I was one of the people who quit the game starting there and didn't resurface until 2.0 showed up.

Oh no - sorry, my point wasn't very clear.  It's early and Monday 😉

I think we'll find that "Hatchetman" isn't going to be a real answer to quad phantoms in the long run.  But, largely, it's much easier to bandwagon in a meta that's guaranteed to shift - if there are 3 months left in the current season, am I better off trying to find a counter to quad phantoms, which might take two months, to use it for the single remaining month?  I don't think so.  Obviously, people aren't rational actors, and I'm not trying to prescribe 100% of people's behavior or anything, just trying to overfit data to a model as all humans should be!

 

No, I don't think X-Wing is currently worse than before.  Frankly, current X-Wing is better than it's ever been over the history of the game - but from talking to people, you wouldn't know that it's the case.  People seem to be having less fun, and that's what I'm curious on.  Are we all just old and jaded?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

As far as the Worlds invite combined with the points changes making the meta decisions bad, is X-Wing today actually worse than pretty much every meta starting with the original triple Jumpmasters? Legit asking, I was one of the people who quit the game starting there and didn't resurface until 2.0 showed up.

I'm going with a hard no there.  X-wing is still in one of its better states right now I think.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I watched some of the First Earth stream this weekend, and the top 4 game was Drea Loks vs a standard Rebel Beef list.  It was interesting, in that it's an iaijutsu duel: it's all about the opening strike.  Neither list is particularly arc-dodgy, so they just flew at each other and checked who had the better opening.  In this case, it was Drea Loks (the Rebel list was strung out a bit and had a bump, and the Loks had somewhat stronger rolls IMO).  After the opening, there wasn't any reason to watch any more, so I checked out.

This is pretty much what I feel is boring.  The moves are pretty obvious, and the games aren't exciting to watch.  It doesn't feel like I'm learning much.  Agree that the game is still way better than any 1.0 meta!

Also, why do the Rebel Beef players fly in such tight formations?  Seriously, none of those ships have any reason to be within range 1 of one another.  Spread out in a good net for better opening engagements where you aren't bumping into Cassian and can get everyone at the same range.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Oh no - sorry, my point wasn't very clear.  It's early and Monday 😉

I think we'll find that "Hatchetman" isn't going to be a real answer to quad phantoms in the long run.  But, largely, it's much easier to bandwagon in a meta that's guaranteed to shift - if there are 3 months left in the current season, am I better off trying to find a counter to quad phantoms, which might take two months, to use it for the single remaining month?  I don't think so.  Obviously, people aren't rational actors, and I'm not trying to prescribe 100% of people's behavior or anything, just trying to overfit data to a model as all humans should be!

 

No, I don't think X-Wing is currently worse than before.  Frankly, current X-Wing is better than it's ever been over the history of the game - but from talking to people, you wouldn't know that it's the case.  People seem to be having less fun, and that's what I'm curious on.  Are we all just old and jaded?

So if we take your model and assume it's true enough, what is the solution? If FFG adjusts points frequently enough, will that solve the meta being stale because everyone is returning to the drawing board before the meta is established? Should they instead scale it back to once a year point changes, forcing people either to quit for the year or innovate? 

And for the record, I agree that X-Wing is better than it ever has been and I'm still having fun playing it. I look forward to the times I get together with people and throw down a game. I'm even tentatively spending at least a day of GenCon playing X-wing, even though I'm into all kinds of board games as well.

9 minutes ago, pheaver said:

I watched some of the First Earth stream this weekend, and the top 4 game was Drea Loks vs a standard Rebel Beef list.  It was interesting, in that it's an iaijutsu duel: it's all about the opening strike.  Neither list is particularly arc-dodgy, so they just flew at each other and checked who had the better opening.  In this case, it was Drea Loks (the Rebel list was strung out a bit and had a bump, and the Loks had somewhat stronger rolls IMO).  After the opening, there wasn't any reason to watch any more, so I checked out.

This is pretty much what I feel is boring.  The moves are pretty obvious, and the games aren't exciting to watch.  It doesn't feel like I'm learning much.  Agree that the game is still way better than any 1.0 meta!

Also, why do the Rebel Beef players fly in such tight formations?  Seriously, none of those ships have any reason to be within range 1 of one another.  Spread out in a good net for better opening engagements where you aren't bumping into Cassian and can get everyone at the same range.

 

This is the primary reason why I'm not currently considering bringing Rebel Beef to the next tournament I play, but I would strongly caution against any sort of movement suggesting that we balance the game around what is fun for the spectator. I don't think that is what you are suggesting @pheaver but I could see some people moving that way.

I'm also unsure why they formation fly. Formation flying without a Howlrunner or Biggs effect is.... strange..... but as @Brunas said, people aren't always rational actors.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

So if we take your model and assume it's true enough, what is the solution? If FFG adjusts points frequently enough, will that solve the meta being stale because everyone is returning to the drawing board before the meta is established? Should they instead scale it back to once a year point changes, forcing people either to quit for the year or innovate? 

And for the record, I agree that X-Wing is better than it ever has been and I'm still having fun playing it. I look forward to the times I get together with people and throw down a game. I'm even tentatively spending at least a day of GenCon playing X-wing, even though I'm into all kinds of board games as well.

I have no idea! I'm not even sure what the problem is, or if there's even a problem!

 

#helping

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, Brunas said:

This is kinda my main concern with points changes.  Let me see if I can say it well enough to make any sense...

 

Before (in 1e), if you weren't happy about the state of the game, or what was good, or whatever, the options were basically:

1. just stop playing

2. complain enough to try and get an errata

 

Generally only 1-2 things got an errata a year, so really the first was the real option.  Now that we know points will change, perfect is always the enemy of the good.  We'll never be happy.

 

That being said, points changing (combined with worlds being invite only) does lead to some horrible meta behavior, I think.  Because people know they need to win or do stupidly well at an even to get their coveted worlds invite, they're playing more or less exclusively cancer/low burden of execution lists.  That, combined with the people who don't care also smoking it while they've got it with the current good stuff, trying to get events in with the current flavor of the month before it gets nerfed.

 

Imagine if points were variable in the height of palp defenders.  Would anyone have bothered looking for real meta counters, or instead just play it because it's easy and it'll get mixed up in 0-6 months anyways?  We didn't have an option before, and I think the options might be making people less happy.

See. This is the content I come for. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...