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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, gennataos said:

What, generically from a tactical standpoint, screws with Rebel beef?  Asking for a friend. 

1. Approaching from angles that make k turn or tallon use more awkard and less useful. Rocks in the way somehow are pretty important.

2. Partial first engagements that allow your entire list to shoot at Cassian or Wedge while only 2-3 of their ships reply. Easier to target cassian than wedge since wedge is often held back a bit. You want wedge first though.

 3. Any list that can trade for Wedge and Cassian and finish the game using an ace in a 1v2 against Braylen and whatever else is left. I repeat this alot but its pretty much the win condition for most acey type lists. You kill one of the things half pt the other run to or reach time or just finish it. Its important that cassian and wedge are not one of the two things left because leia genuinely flips the 1v2 in the “good guys” favor and Wedge cant be init killed and tends to steal half points from your ace on the way out.

4. Big base blockers. Not just Upsilons. Anything that can say no to the white Ks, re-enforce and still offensive mod, then bump and shoot and make the rebels waste time while your more mobile stuff collects half points or sets up alley oop init kill doubleplays. Iv had success spreading fire actually, usually unintentionally with one of my flankers unable to target the same thing as everything else is carefully range controlling. The split fire can allow two ships to be removed in one turn at some later stage if you do it right. Usually causes panic even if the trades are essentially the same. Best to focus down wedge then cassian but you take what you can get sometimes

5. And the multiple angles thing

Edited by Boom Owl

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4 hours ago, AceWing said:

Attacking from multiple directions at range three so they have to either try to gun one ship down or split up their group.

If they focus one ship down, they're committing in one-ish direction and get hit hard from behind and the flank. 

If they split fire, their list becomes much less effective at actually blowing ships up.

You want to stay at range three because rebel beef agility is all low and you can plink them to death from a distance without putting any ship in a great deal of danger. 

It's true, all of it.  

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28 minutes ago, gennataos said:

If I see another person post on Reddit about their Hyperspace Trial win with Rebel beef, I’m going to vomit. 

(Preparing to vomit)

Yeah...I'm jealous, too ...

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35 minutes ago, gennataos said:

If I see another person post on Reddit about their Hyperspace Trial win with Rebel beef, I’m going to vomit. 

(Preparing to vomit)

I'm going to try again with CIS, if I can trade off my shift for the day of the next close-ish trial. 😅

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56 minutes ago, gennataos said:

If I see another person post on Reddit about their Hyperspace Trial win with Rebel beef, I’m going to vomit. 

(Preparing to vomit)

Breath deep and slow. Just over a month left till next points adjustment and this short era of bs should be pushed back into a muted form.

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In the groups opinion, is rebel beef an example of an ideal list to be at the top of the meta (with the caveat that something will always be there)? I figure something that is pretty straight forward to understand how it works so it can’t “wtf?” crush oblivious players, and also isn’t capable of flying circles around an opponent , at the very least let’s you feel like you are making progress by shooting it.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

In the groups opinion, is rebel beef an example of an ideal list to be at the top of the meta (with the caveat that something will always be there)? I figure something that is pretty straight forward to understand how it works so it can’t “wtf?” crush oblivious players, and also isn’t capable of flying circles around an opponent , at the very least let’s you feel like you are making progress by shooting it.

I'm not opposed to it being a part of the meta, it just feels like it's a touch more powerful than lots of other lists right now. And sure something will probably always end up being more efficient for its points, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't try to reach a perfect balance.

Edited by SpiderMana

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10 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:

I'm not opposed to it being a part of the meta, it just feels like it's a touch more powerful than lots of other lists right now. And sure something will probably always end up being more efficient for its points, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't try to reach a perfect balance.

Oh ya I totally agree on that. But whether through human fallibility or the limits of game rules, there will always be imbalances of some kind. And when it comes to that, it’s important for the game designers to recognize what is the “okayist” to be the best in the game. And when it comes to that, a list that you often can shoot (AND damage), doesn’t combo you off the board before you even start the game, and doesn’t regenerate every damage you do to it, seems much, much better than many if not all of the alternatives.

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Rebel beef is fine.  They have to make decisions with consequences, their ships aren't invincible, and they don't have strong maneuverability except for once every three turns. I don't know what people have a problem with.  They have strong concentrated fire so don't get caught in it.

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, AceWing said:

Rebel beef is fine.  They have to make decisions with consequences, their ships aren't invincible, and they don't have strong maneuverability except for once every three turns. I don't know what people have a problem with.  They have strong concentrated fire so don't get caught in it.

Contraband Cybernetics

5 points per instance in list. Affects 1 ship once. Still gains the stress. Only rechargeable via a 6 pt 2 slot upgrade (Jabba, Quinn Jast doesn't have an Illicit slot so cannot recharge it). Edit: Forgot Chopper Astromech can recharge it too by eating 2 shields.

•Leia Organa

2 points for the single instance. Affects entire list regardless of range to carrier. The adjusted maneuvers do not cause stress, allows everything in the list to have a equal or better dial to a TIE Defender two or more times a match. Requires no further investment in points to have multiple uses.

Leia is stupidly cheap for what she enables. She needs to go up 3-4 points.

Edited by Hiemfire

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I agree.

I think part of the problem is that Leia needs to be good because she's a main movie character and there's only one place she exists in the game right now. Where the heck is Leia pilot? 

yes I've gone on this rant before and spoilers look less link-spammy so... here's the link to my argument why I think this is actually weird 

 

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33 minutes ago, AceWing said:

Rebel beef is fine.  They have to make decisions with consequences, their ships aren't invincible, and they don't have strong maneuverability except for once every three turns. I don't know what people have a problem with.  They have strong concentrated fire so don't get caught in it.

I played and lost against it yesterday night. I'll write it up so you can at some point read all about my mistakes - and there were plenty.

Specifically the Wedge Ten Braylen CassianLeia combination has a frustrating element to it:

  • Wedge can do back-to-back k turns with Cassian at range 1-3. That is a large range. And the coordinate means that he is not even necessarily without mods;
  • Ten and Braylen don't mind the stress because it's a feature for them;
  • And Leia being used every third turn means a U-wing has to do 1 blue forward on and can otherwise stay exactly where he is - including 90°-180° rotations at will.

Now, I don't think it is too strong a list, but it should clock in at 200 points instead of 194. Leia up 3, Cassian, Ten and Braylen up 1 (or nothing up on Cassian)  and then the list is still possible but has no additional tricks.

The problem I do have with the list is that it forces me to play lame, and that taints the whole experience of playing, and essentially makes me rather not play than play this matchup*. There was an obstacle free corner in the southeast. He went there as fast as possible and stayed there. At that point I have two options: I play the long game and wait until he comes to me (at a final salvo of 8 vs 12...) or I joust him anyway. Approaching from 3  directions doesn't help because he has no bad choice: if he takes out an ace then the game is lost for me. If he goes for a generic then he can initiative kill it. And he only has to cover 2 directions as he's in the corner. As I said, I made plenty mistakes. But at least one of them was to approach, and it sucks that this is a mistake.

So yeah, I've changed my mind on rebel beef. I don't like to play the matchup anymore. My guess is that I could previously rely on opponents making mistakes, but by now they have figured out how to play it well.

 

*I understand the irony that I was on the opposite side some weeks/pages ago when Travis made that point...

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1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

I played and lost against it yesterday night. I'll write it up so you can at some point read all about my mistakes - and there were plenty.

Specifically the Wedge Ten Braylen CassianLeia combination has a frustrating element to it:

  • Wedge can do back-to-back k turns with Cassian at range 1-3. That is a large range. And the coordinate means that he is not even necessarily without mods;
  • Ten and Braylen don't mind the stress because it's a feature for them;
  • And Leia being used every third turn means a U-wing has to do 1 blue forward on and can otherwise stay exactly where he is - including 90°-180° rotations at will.

Now, I don't think it is too strong a list, but it should clock in at 200 points instead of 194. Leia up 3, Cassian, Ten and Braylen up 1 (or nothing up on Cassian)  and then the list is still possible but has no additional tricks.

The problem I do have with the list is that it forces me to play lame, and that taints the whole experience of playing, and essentially makes me rather not play than play this matchup*. There was an obstacle free corner in the southeast. He went there as fast as possible and stayed there. At that point I have two options: I play the long game and wait until he comes to me (at a final salvo of 8 vs 12...) or I joust him anyway. Approaching from 3  directions doesn't help because he has no bad choice: if he takes out an ace then the game is lost for me. If he goes for a generic then he can initiative kill it. And he only has to cover 2 directions as he's in the corner. As I said, I made plenty mistakes. But at least one of them was to approach, and it sucks that this is a mistake.

So yeah, I've changed my mind on rebel beef. I don't like to play the matchup anymore. My guess is that I could previously rely on opponents making mistakes, but by now they have figured out how to play it well.

 

*I understand the irony that I was on the opposite side some weeks/pages ago when Travis made that point...

The problem with that whole scenario is final salvo, the stupidest way to resolve a game ever.  FFG never should have listened to those complaining about draws. Now they have a bigger problem, fortressing combined with final salvo.  You can minimize fortressing by disincentiving draws in game. A draw is usually a punishment in Swiss.

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21 minutes ago, AceWing said:

The problem with that whole scenario is final salvo, the stupidest way to resolve a game ever.  FFG never should have listened to those complaining about draws. Now they have a bigger problem, fortressing combined with final salvo.  You can minimize fortressing by disincentiving draws in game. A draw is usually a punishment in Swiss.

Sure, but even then it is a game that I don't like to play. I don't want to wait 75min (or 2h on vassal), that's not what I sign up for and making it the smart choice is boring.

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5 hours ago, Micanthropyre said:

take away Leia and I'm pretty sure I'm okay with rebel beef as it stands.

I kinda feel this, perhaps taking a bid away from Wedge would help too though.

Lost against it yesterday at a store tourney (very good player using it). Pretty large caveat in that he had Biggs rather than Wedge.

We had Fenn, a Recruit and AS Guri. Boy was in charge and basically suicided the Fangs on a really terrible approach and traded them both for 2 shields :(

But then Guri tied it in complete knots for an hour and at one point, looked like she might perform a miracle. Had to trade once or twice with one of them and ended up halved, which ended faint hopes.

But even with Leia coming up again and again (quick turns when only 1 or none ships are shooting), they don't manoeuvre that well when they have to cover multiple options. Takes up a lot of room when you're trying to stay R1 and out of arc but super slinky ships can find the gaps.

It is strong on mods and pointing whichever way it wants but it's doesn't feel particularly oppressive to play against to me. It's fairly predictable.

Fortressing it in an open corner sounds quite agonizing though, I don't fancy having to deal with that.

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3 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Fortressing it in an open corner sounds quite agonizing though, I don't fancy having to deal with that.

Just to clarify, he didn't get the chance to fortress or to not fortress. He rushed there and I engaged on turn 4.

I just don't see how my list gets the favorable (or neutral) first engagement with a reasonably good follow up.

Chipping at r3 and then running is possible. Is it fun though? It seems to be the most widespread mistake that players don't disengage when they should. Me included.

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4 ship rebel isn't a problem in my view. Unless there is a bump to all rebel ships, the archetype is going to stay.  The ships you choose from may change, but remember, there are cheaper, good options that are currently not making it into lists because there are better options.  Increase Braylen, Cassian and Leia and suddenly you push a Y-Wing ace in there instead of the second B-Wing, or Sabine shuttle. 

Comparing Leia to contraband cybernetics is also a huge straw man ... that one upgrade is overcosted doesn't follow that something comparable is undercosted. Id rather see cybernetics come down (Bear in mind that it opens it up as an option for a good number of rebel ships too in the renegades and freighters)

I'm disappointed, but not surprised that this thread is degenerating into a microcosm of the main forums. It used to be somewhere to get decent discussion ... now its just pages of people whining about a list that thumped them, but doing it over 500 words, with pictures in a hope it comes across as intellectual, rather than just salt.

 

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34 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Just to clarify, he didn't get the chance to fortress or to not fortress. He rushed there and I engaged on turn 4.

I just don't see how my list gets the favorable (or neutral) first engagement with a reasonably good follow up.

Chipping at r3 and then running is possible. Is it fun though? It seems to be the most widespread mistake that players don't disengage when they should. Me included.

Ah, fair.

Not disengaging, very true indeed, and same. Going for an extra shot to try and swing a game too early is one of my most common pitfalls. Just behind making awful approaches and just ahead of believing the dice will be in my favour in this inevitably bad situation I'm opting into.

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7 hours ago, Kdubb said:

Oh ya I totally agree on that. But whether through human fallibility or the limits of game rules, there will always be imbalances of some kind. And when it comes to that, it’s important for the game designers to recognize what is the “okayist” to be the best in the game. 

Something will always be best, but the amount by which it is the best is not fixed. Neither is the length of time it remains the best.

Also, I didn't mind it so much if they'd changed points midway through the season when wave 3 dropped. Instead, they just added Leia's favorite toys. Leia is in a virtual tie for most common upgrade in the game - Rebels are the most common faction by far, and they all have Leia and Wedge, and most of them have a U-Wing and a B-Wing.

People are just bored of it. If Rebels were the least played faction instead of the most played faction, nobody would care - that's just called First Order.

27 minutes ago, Dreadai said:

Unless there is a bump to all rebel ships, the archetype is going to stay.  The ships you choose from may change, but remember, there are cheaper, good options that are currently not making it into lists because there are better options.

Does anyone actually think the archetype existing is a problem? Maybe I'm wrong, but I haven't seen that. It's just way above the power curve.

If the list isn't double modding every shot, and running Wedge with a bid, and yolo-jousting more efficiently than, what, like 90% of the meta, then who cares? It's fine, whatever. UXXYY was a cool list.

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1 hour ago, Dreadai said:

I'm disappointed, but not surprised that this thread is degenerating into a microcosm of the main forums. It used to be somewhere to get decent discussion ... now its just pages of people whining about a list that thumped them, but doing it over 500 words, with pictures in a hope it comes across as intellectual, rather than just salt.

Please then, help by e.g. answering these questions:

23 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Can we talk more often about target priority and your own shooting order?

Just now a situation on the SOS Malmö stream: Scum list vs Rebel beef list

Scum player does not lose a ship in the honorable joust. He has:

  • 3 R3 shots against Wedge
  • 2R2 and 2R1 shots against Cassian and Ten
  • 2 R3 and 2 R2 shots against Braylen

Important to note, one R1 shot against Cassian or Ten is with a Dorsal turret and one ion, the other Ion is one of the R2 shots.

First, target priority: Generally, he should be afraid of Wedge and he should remove Leia/Cassian. The latter has extra synergies with the Bwings, so he might even be the best target before looking at the specific situation.

Second, the shooting order as it happened:

  1. R2 by Drea on Cassian
  2. R1 ion carrier on Cassian with both shots
  3. R1 dorsal carrier on Cassian with both shots, Cassian dies
  4. R2 on Ten with both shots, does put a damage through with the ion cannon but can't ionize

Would the better order not have been the reverse? Start with the R2 to strip tokens. And then the very last attack is an ion cannon that anyway only deals 1 damage at most. If Cassian is already dead, a B-wing will most likely be ionized. If Cassian is on 1 hull, he will most likely die. If Cassian is above 1 hull, you should probably shoot a Bwingat range 1 to ionize.

Might not be interesting to everyone, but it is to me at least.

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