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13 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

I'm unconvinced. Burners might be fun and decent on their own, maybe add crack shot for one more point... I'd save the points on the prockets though. Too many points on a Scyk seems real bad.

Actually, that might be fun. Zip in, if you trigger crack shot the following turn go fast and use burners to buy more space for reloading.

Just a thought. Of course, Scyk -3 pts is too many pts, let alone Scyk +13 pts.

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25 minutes ago, svelok said:

I think there is a lot to be said for quarterly points changes that are small plus semi-annual changes that are big. Not a full meta revamp every quarter, but a shakeup of the top squads inbetween full changes. I would assume (hope) this isn't how they do it, but as an example, they could look at what makes the top 5 squads on meta-wing tick, maybe throw a bone to the 2-3 worst performing factions, and call it a day. A very limited, targeted set of points changes (although the size of the changes might be quite large, depending) to just maintain interest. 

They also could do a lot more to make Hyperspace have, well... a point. If Wave 4 brings Phantoms and Scurrgs to hyperspace there will be no point whatsoever in even having it anymore. Conversely, if wave 4 rotated out the TIE Advanced and U-Wings (and without just replacing them with similar roles from Extended), the two formats would actually look different and hyperspace would have to figure out a fresh meta; subtractive or sideways changes meaning more than additive ones.

This is the second time we're hitting 3 months on a given "patch" and we're all starting to get a little restless about how many Leia lists and Phantoms are going to be around. That says a lot.

And nerfing the top performing things doesn't even have to be blasting them out of existence. Upping the Generic Phantoms to 48 and 46 probably doesn't solve the quad Phantom problem completely (4 Sigmas with Crack Shot is still probably very good, and 3 Imdaars and a fourth Ace that isn't Vader is probably also strong) but it will force people to at least look at changing. Lu'lo up 3 points probably doesn't kill any of those meta lists but makes them a touch weaker. Leia to 5ish points won't stop Leia builds from happening but will cut them down a notch. Dunno what to do with Han, it has to be something otherwise he'll actually take over the meta instead of just being gross to play against.

Don't even reduce points costs on anything (except maybe the laughable points on named Torrents), see what happens when the overall power level is brought down a notch. Even CIS, though kinda bad, is lurking near the cut in a lot of instances and if the things that prey on it go away it might start showing up more.

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1 minute ago, Micanthropyre said:

Lu'lo up 3 points probably doesn't kill any of those meta lists but makes them a touch weaker.

L'ulo going up probably kills off the already-underperforming Resistance faction, until wave 4 at least... he's clearly underpriced but right now he's basically all that faction has.

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2 minutes ago, player3010587 said:

Just a thought. Of course, Scyk -3 pts is too many pts, let alone Scyk +13 pts.

Returning to neglected ships/pilots now and then is a good thought process. With frequent changes it's easy to forget something.

How many Scyks came in the conversion kit, anyway? I'm looking at getting a fourth when it's re-released. The Scyk is pretty bad, but I keep going back to it. I forget how many dials I have, so maybe I'll get another used one and repaint it.

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3 minutes ago, svelok said:

L'ulo going up probably kills off the already-underperforming Resistance faction, until wave 4 at least... he's clearly underpriced but right now he's basically all that faction has.

Should still be up'd if he's underpriced, regardless of what the faction is doing. Leaving him alone runs a risk that a release will break things.

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8 minutes ago, svelok said:

L'ulo going up probably kills off the already-underperforming Resistance faction, until wave 4 at least... he's clearly underpriced but right now he's basically all that faction has.

I agree with you 1000% but a lot of the debate is that 5RZ2 is borderline NPE....

And even though I love playing as it, I don't have it in my box anymore for X-wing night because it might be the second least fun list to play against behind regen Han.

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4 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Should still be up'd if he's underpriced, regardless of what the faction is doing. Leaving him alone runs a risk that a release will break things.

Yeah, I'm not disagreeing there. But he's not in a position that needs an emergency hike, he can wait for when the whole faction is re-examined for July. (And if wave 4 breaks him, it'll only be for a month anyways.)

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Speaking of points adjustments, most of us agree that CIS are probably the saddest faction at the moment - what do they need to be more competitive? Can a points reduction make up for how vulnerable they are to initiative kills? Or do they need a fix via upgrades/abilities that address their fundamental weaknesses?

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Transmogrifier said:

Speaking of points adjustments, most of us agree that CIS are probably the saddest faction at the moment - what do they need to be more competitive? Can a points reduction make up for how vulnerable they are to initiative kills? Or do they need a fix via upgrades/abilities that address their fundamental weaknesses?

I believe the base cost of at least the Vultures overall are needed to go down, especially the unique ones. Currently they are just there to bring ESC for as many 3 dice shots in an opening volley as possible. ESC is already cheap enough, but the Vultures themselves at this time are useless (besides DFS-311) to bring without ESC. I'm even willing to have the Vultures drop 3-4 pts if that means ESC goes up by 1-2 pts. The chassis is THAT bad and it's only saving grace is networked calculations and access to hard turn, BR to linked calc. It will be interesting to see what the Hyena costs are, could be an indicator of a potentially expected Vulture points change which likely takes place a month after Wave 4 releases. 

Edited by RStan

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21 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

And nerfing the top performing things doesn't even have to be blasting them out of existence. Upping the Generic Phantoms to 48 and 46 probably doesn't solve the quad Phantom problem completely (4 Sigmas with Crack Shot is still probably very good, and 3 Imdaars and a fourth Ace that isn't Vader is probably also strong) but it will force people to at least look at changing. Lu'lo up 3 points probably doesn't kill any of those meta lists but makes them a touch weaker. Leia to 5ish points won't stop Leia builds from happening but will cut them down a notch. Dunno what to do with Han, it has to be something otherwise he'll actually take over the meta instead of just being gross to play against.

Don't even reduce points costs on anything (except maybe the laughable points on named Torrents), see what happens when the overall power level is brought down a notch. Even CIS, though kinda bad, is lurking near the cut in a lot of instances and if the things that prey on it go away it might start showing up more.

An almost-only-nerf wave of price adjustments feels interesting to me.

Just looking at Resistance for a sec:

  • Most T-70 might need to come down a bit.  The extra shield over a T-65 is nice, but the faction-support of Rebels is just so much stronger, so they don't really work as generics.  Aces are perhaps a bit outclassed by Jedi, but probably aren't too far off.
  • Falcons are too expensive.  Personally, I'd go for a 2-point drop on every pilot, so that we could see a list of three 3-dice turrets.  In terms of raw stats, they'd be a bit weaker than 3x Firespray, with worse actions and dial, but turret > rear arc.  It'd be interesting to see.
  • Bomber could maybe see... a small price cut to Trajectory Simulator.  I wonder if it got over-nerfed from when Punishers were too powerful.  The original 3 points was clearly too cheap, but 6-8 points for TrajSim probably is fair enough.  Anyhow, most of the named pilots could also probably use a nudge (Vennie seems fine).
  • RZ-2s--particularly L'ulo but kinda most other pilots--are a bit cheap.  Maybe the generics don't need to change, but Tallie's init bump is absurdly cheap, and L'ulo is L'ulo.

So clearly the entire faction gets worse if only L'ulo (and maybe other smaller RZ-2) nerfs go through.  But a nerf-only adjustment wave probably does more for helping to figure out what ships are actually too weak, and which ships are just weak-compared-to-overly-strong ships.  It'd be an interesting experiment.

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27 minutes ago, svelok said:

Yeah, I'm not disagreeing there. But he's not in a position that needs an emergency hike, he can wait for when the whole faction is re-examined for July. (And if wave 4 breaks him, it'll only be for a month anyways.)

Total agreement. He's not an emergency, he can wait.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, RStan said:

Currently they are just there to bring ESC for as many 3 dice shots in an opening volley as possible. [...]

Vultures themselves at this time are useless to bring without ESC. I'm even willing to have the Vultures drop 3-4 pts if that means ESC goes up by 1-2 pts.

This would be incredibly interesting.

Energy Shell Charges were always the thing which made me nervous about Vultures prior to actual release.  Shifting more points to them and having the Vultures themselves drop (probably Grapple Struts drop too?) would be wicked interesting.  Maybe full-on ESC wouldn't be the only way to build them.

Edited by theBitterFig

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

This would be incredibly interesting.

Energy Shell Charges were always the thing which made me nervous about Vultures prior to actual release.  Shifting more points to them and having the Vultures themselves drop (probably Grapple Struts drop too?) would be wicked interesting.  Maybe full-on ESC wouldn't be the only way to build them.

Yeah that's been my main issue with the Aethersprite and the Vultures. With the points as they are, there's only one way to run them. Aethersprites become Delta 7Bs because CLT is too expensive and Vultures always carry ESC because they're the cheapest increase in making the Vultures potentially worth it because the base chassis is too expensive. On top of that I too believe Grappling Struts and even Discord Missiles cost too much. Grappling Struts seem to be just as much a part of the Vultures in canon as SFoils do for XWings, but I understand for game balance they probably shouldn't be free as if played correctly ignores obstacles in the game. Although not 3 pts at the current Vultures prices, probably 1 pt depending on how far they lower Vulture prices. 

Delta 7B is auto include because CLT is too expensive and ESC is auto include because otherwise Vultures aren't worth bringing at all. That's a problem with points balance to allow variation in factions with already very limited options. 

Edited by RStan

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9 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

is CLT too expensive, or is the base chassis too expensive for the Aethersprites? I wonder if some of the more support style Jedi would see more play if they were a tad cheaper. 

Or are the aggressive Jedi too cheap, and so the support ones don't get played. The fun art of finding where the problems are...

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57 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Energy Shell Charges were always the thing which made me nervous about Vultures prior to actual release.  Shifting more points to them and having the Vultures themselves drop (probably Grapple Struts drop too?) would be wicked interesting.  Maybe full-on ESC wouldn't be the only way to build them.

Having cheaper vultures would also make me feel better about non-Kraken relays. K2-B4 gets a lot better if vultures drop enough in price that ESC isn’t stapled to them. 

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I don’t hate where Vultures are at right now, but I’d definitely be interested in feeling like I have more of an option. I feel like I’ve got a decent grip on flying them with ESCs but if the chassis and/or struts drop enough, the amount of choices in listbuilding Vultures shoots up incredibly.

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14 minutes ago, RStan said:

Yeah that's been my main issue with the Aethersprite [...] Aethersprites become Delta 7Bs because CLT is too expensive

I feel like I might: {A} Reduce the base cost of all Aethersprites by 1 point, {B } Increase Delta 7B by 1 point (keeping scaling), {C} Reduce CLT in both total price and scaling rate, to be equal to Initiative.  End results:

  • Non-config Jedi (used as support or such) are a hair cheaper.
  • All Delta 7B builds would remain the same price as now. 
  • CLT JKs would be 41 points (to avoid the 5-ship breakpoint).
  • In general, CLT builds would be -2 points (relative to current prices) at Init 3, -3 points at Init 4, -4 points at Init 5, and -5 points at Init 6.

In total, CLT Anakin would be 65 instead of 78 points for 7B.  I think that might get some playtime, and probably wouldn't represent a problematic ship.  CLT seems like it's got a much higher skill floor.  Getting bullseye requires more force for Fine-Tuned Controls or more normal-actions used on boost/barrel roll.  A focus result vs a rolled die means either more force spent on red dice, more Focus actions than just Locks, or more luck to reroll the Focus into a hit.  At an 8 point savings, combined with the loss of the Mod slot, CLT vs 7B just doesn't seem worth it.  At 13 relative to 7B, maybe.

It'd also be interesting to see some of the CLT-specific synergies come out more.  Obi-Wan's ability seems like it would work well with them, so that you'll have a full Focus token for both offense and Defense, useful when throwing more raw green dice.  The Focus token from Darth Sidious's coordinate makes more sense, too, in a world where CLT gets more play.

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1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

Just looking at Resistance for a sec:

I think Resistance gets a lot better if some things in the Rebel Faction get adjusted.    I also think that 5 Awings are still a really strong list but they see a lot less playtime by choice rather than strength of lists.

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1 minute ago, LagJanson said:

Or are the aggressive Jedi too cheap, and so the support ones don't get played. The fun art of finding where the problems are...

Well, considering even in Hyperspace the Republic isn't setting anything on fire, no. I don't think that they are too cheap. I've mostly been playing Anakin/(Mace or Ahsoka)/2x Gold V19 lately and it's a lot of fun. It feels pretty balanced against the other things I'm playing against, with it being an uphill battle if I have to play against Extended lists. 

There just aren't a lot of options of things to put with them, but I think Jedi overall are fine. I think Bariss would be good if he had 2 force, that 1 force is obviously so he's not pushing a lot more damage through but it only recharges one per turn and you can't use the chassis ability and his ability at the same time. Lumi seems good and has made appearances in the Anakin lists. Obi has seen play alongside 3 generic Arcs and done well. Saesee is probably better than anyone gives credit for and Plo has one of those abilities that someday might combo well so you have to be sort of careful. Mace, Ahsoka, and Anakin are all obviously pretty good. 

I'm loving the Republic. They are like, Tier 1.5, very playable in competitive formats and I've seen 3 lists that have performed well at Hyperspace Trial level events (Anakin/Jedi/2V19, Sinker/104th/4xV19, and Jedi/3ARC) which all represent completely different approaches to the game. They also don't feel unfair or particularly combo-focused. Again, this shows my bias, but I kind of want to see the relative power level come down just a hair, which I think would make Republic "good" without adjusting anything. Of course you can take the unplayed stuff (drop the non Sinker named ARCs a point or two, the memeworthy named Torrents 3-4 points each, CLT, etc) and bring it down a little but thats so far down the priority chain that I wouldn't bother with a surprise May points update.

29 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:

I don’t hate where Vultures are at right now, but I’d definitely be interested in feeling like I have more of an option. I feel like I’ve got a decent grip on flying them with ESCs but if the chassis and/or struts drop enough, the amount of choices in listbuilding Vultures shoots up incredibly.

Vultures are just bad because they are 3 hull behind 2 agility and low initiative and a wacky dial that makes them unreliable blockers. The only thing they are around for is to boost Wat and give wings to Shells. Place a ton of them on the mat at the same time slows the game down, because if you can fit 8 and Wat you've got a miserable play experience marking ships and getting into this terrible furball, all for a 6 round game in 75 minutes. They need a defensive oriented Tactical Droid that doesn't allow your opponent to ignore it for a strain. No thanks.

11 minutes ago, AlexW said:

I think Resistance gets a lot better if some things in the Rebel Faction get adjusted.    I also think that 5 Awings are still a really strong list but they see a lot less playtime by choice rather than strength of lists.

I think Resistance needs more than just RZ2s and T70s to be viable choices and with a lowering of the bar we'll see more of them. I definitely think that if the overall bar gets lowered 5A and XXAA will need to get hit with the nerf bat a little bit, but jumping Lulo 5 points and Tali 2 or 3 probably does enough without touching anything else.

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5 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

Well, considering even in Hyperspace the Republic isn't setting anything on fire, no. I don't think that they are too cheap.

And this plays back into Rebel beef with Leia being to cheap and the TIE swarm being dominant. Gotta watch where you tweak or the whole thing flies apart. If only one ship is struggling, look at that ship. When a number of ships and factions are struggling, you gotta look deeper.

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8 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

Place a ton of them on the mat at the same time slows the game down, because if you can fit 8 and Wat you've got a miserable play experience marking ships and getting into this terrible furball, all for a 6 round game in 75 minutes. 

No, they die too quickly for that. These aren't TIE Fighters. 

We already have 7 ships CIS with Wat + 6 Vultures. Adding a whole one more Vulture wouldn't grind pace of play to a halt...

2 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

And this plays back into Rebel beef with Leia being to cheap and the TIE swarm being dominant. Gotta watch where you tweak or the whole thing flies apart. If only one ship is struggling, look at that ship. When a number of ships and factions are struggling, you gotta look deeper.

TIE Swarm being held back exclusively by unwillingness to play it makes me perpetually nervous.

Yet another reason for quarterly mini-adjustments!

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7 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

because if you can fit 8 and Wat

Where the heck are you playing that they think tournament regs permit this... 2-8 ships is the hard ship count restriction on tournament lists... The 8 ship hard ceiling is why people see Vultures going under 20pts bare for the I1s is even a possibility.

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3 minutes ago, svelok said:

No, they die too quickly for that. These aren't TIE Fighters. 

We already have 7 ships CIS with Wat + 6 Vultures. Adding a whole one more Vulture wouldn't grind pace of play to a halt...

TIE Swarm being held back exclusively by unwillingness to play it makes me perpetually nervous.

Yet another reason for quarterly mini-adjustments!

You make fair points. I think that CIS is in a strange place where of their 3 ships, 1 is a swarm filler thing, 1 is a 10hp 1agility large base ship, and their mid-range fighter has a lot of pilot abilities aimed at synergy with things that melt off the table really fast. There aren't really any standout pieces in the whole faction, and it'll take some new waves of content to fix it.

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Posted (edited)

Quarterly adjustments would make the game awfully volatile, I think. Even if they only change one or two ships (rather than the more broad changes from last adjustment), it doesn't take a lot to completely upend the meta. It's especially jarring to the more casual-skewed player, who might not fully appreciate or understand why these changes are "messing with their lists" seemingly every time they go to play with them, or why the ship they finally were able to buy is now twice as expensive, etc. At the end of the day, it's very likely the great unwashed casuals that are paying FFG's bills, after all.

3 adjustments per year maybe would feel a bit better (especially if those coincided with the 'seasons' or however they're structuring the more casual OP prize kits now). 4 seems like a lot, unless it's maybe like two major changes and two comparatively minor spot-changes?

At the end of the day, there is still benefit to letting a meta develop on its own. Even without significant changes (other than new factions, only one of which has been super impactful), we've seen lists like Y-Wings or TIE Swarms wax and wane. Personally, I'm okay with one list or another being particularly good for six months or so, especially if they're willing to step in when things emerge as truly degenerate to gameplay (like the Upsilons).

But that's just me, and I strongly suspect that this is a topic that would have a pretty wide and pretty passionate range of opinions, and no matter which way FFG went on it, some group somewhere would be irate. I don't envy the powers that be on this one.

Edited by DoubleDown11

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