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1 minute ago, svelok said:

what % of resistance talent slots are filled by heroic?

if it's the 80-90% that it feels like it is, it should go up to 2 points for the sake of listbuilding decision-making 

That's a backwards way of thinking about it.

That indicates that other upgrades don't have the same perceived value as Heroic, which already has a pretty grey interpretation from the community of how good it really is. If you make Heroic go up, you won't see it replaced with other Talents, the slot will just go unused. 

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15 minutes ago, Rytackle said:

We've done the math over and over.

Heroic should be 1 Point, and stay one point.  Because of how infrequently it activates AND helps you.

But it "feels" so bad when the terrorist player uses their passive mod to escape my clutches!!!🤬

Real Talk: The fact that Heroic is virtually an auto-include on Resistance ships should be a red flag. It reminds me of Trickshot at 1pt. So increased to 2pts for me.

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7 minutes ago, Rytackle said:

That's a backwards way of thinking about it.

That indicates that other upgrades don't have the same perceived value as Heroic, which already has a pretty grey interpretation from the community of how good it really is. If you make Heroic go up, you won't see it replaced with other Talents, the slot will just go unused. 

I'll also add to this and say a lot of places Heroic is used, it's on A-Wings which have two slots anyway.

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28 minutes ago, Rytackle said:

We've done the math over and over.

Heroic should be 1 Point, and stay one point.  Because of how infrequently it activates AND helps you.

Is the level of actionless variance mitigation that Heroic provides something you'd have paid 1pt for a couple years back?

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59 minutes ago, Rytackle said:

That's a backwards way of thinking about it.

That indicates that other upgrades don't have the same perceived value as Heroic, which already has a pretty grey interpretation from the community of how good it really is. If you make Heroic go up, you won't see it replaced with other Talents, the slot will just go unused. 

Crack Shot is worth at least 1 point on any small base.

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48 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

I'll also add to this and say a lot of places Heroic is used, it's on A-Wings which have two slots anyway.

 

1 hour ago, svelok said:

what % of resistance talent slots are filled by heroic?

if it's the 80-90% that it feels like it is, it should go up to 2 points for the sake of listbuilding decision-making 

If you’re conservative, you’d bump up A-Wing prices, then re-evaluate whether players are still taking it at one point, taking something else, or leaving it empty. I’d only change points if they fix a bigger problem and we still see this. 

Related question: which talent faction is best overall? Fearless, right? 

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3 minutes ago, PaulRuddSays said:

Related question: which talent faction is best overall? Fearless, right?

😆🤣🤣🤣 Wait, you're serious aren't you... 🤨 Assess Fearless not on Boba, a Fang, Sabine or in a squad containing Serissu… Range 1 (opponent gets extra red), Front arc primary only, In opponent's front arc (most ships will be able to shoot back if they haven't init killed you already), Convert 1 result to a hit. 3 points. The "Talent" rewards dumb flying unless it is on a Mando or on/along side Serissu. It is crap as a "Faction Talent"...

Fearless

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Posted (edited)

Dislike Fearless, never want to risk trying to get the value from it and I fly the exact ships it's made for.

Love Ruthless, 1pt or free, either is good. Fanatical is super good, fly against it almost every FO list. Maybe the best? Heroic never seems to do anything, it's merely a comical side event. Selfless sucks balls, dislike flying against it, must be decent, don't know what it costs... 3? Fair. Dedicated, not even been slightly tempted so far. So many factions, brain's gone numb.

Edited by Cuz05

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2 hours ago, LagJanson said:

I've been toying with Han and Jake (plus a third - whoops) since Nathan, to be honest.

Notes:

  • When I got caught with Han, I could see it was the turn before I had messed up and limited my movement options for the present turn. Always leave multiple escape routes open
  • Don't stay and fight, run like a coward (uhg)
  • Jake should not normally be shot at by a squad of fighters... if so, you've not read the step before
  • When I made the patient, correct decisions, my opponent basically spent most of the game with little to no red dice, and with stupidly bad shots.
  • The third ship shouldn't have been in the list. It just dies. (I had Wedge with a proton torp, it was glorious to start but often put me in the hole shortly there after. Also a bombing Norra Y-Wing... similarly...)
  • Once your down on points, it's a bit unhappy. Can't dig yourself out well enough

Yep being down on points it's a serious issue and probably a 3 ships list, as you noticed, makes it even worse. 

I also feel that without luke Gunner finally giving a bit of action economy you either have to cheese somehow (like Nathan fortressing for example) or you are up for trouble 

2 hours ago, Biophysical said:

I've played against the Wedge version in Hyperspace.  I didn't notice myself making serious mistakes, and thought my opponent probably engaged incorrectly, and it still required a lot of creative blocking of self and Han to give me a chance to win.  It wouldn't have taken much of a dice swing to lose that game, and I'm not sure I could have played notably better. 

I killed Wedge early and got up on points, but it was still very close.  I'll note that it was on Vassal, and had a 19 round limit, so I attempted to push the engagement to finish the game instead of waiting around for 19 turns.  A 75 minute game probably makes getting up and playing very conservatively more effective and palatable.  

I haven't played against the Jake version.  I suspect it doesn't give up points as easily as Wedge, but I also suspect it leaves more work for Han to do.  I might be wrong, though.  Most Wedge builds are probably not getting more than 1-2 shots anyway, so maybe Jake played well can do more.  

What were you playing? 

Jack's HS list had a 56 point Jake. While flying after at least a good bunch of your opponent list I'm not sure how safer than wedge those points are. But yeah, against generic filled list Jake is hard to get. With wedge thought you might willingly trade him for a threat. 

In extended, having access to kanan, I don't think even a naked wedge fit, but there you have kanan which is a major boost to han

2 hours ago, LagJanson said:

Yeah, the Wedge version falls on its face. If your opponent targets Wedge, there's not much running you can do in an X-Wing and facing your opponent's squad the 2 shots seems accurate. I could usually kill one ship... but Wedge was worth more points than that one ship.

Jake on the other hand can avoid trouble and if he's successfully flanked, outmaneuver is a wonderful upgrade (I'm the Wedge now!) and deals more damage over time than Wedge would in those two turns at the start of the match.

Wedge ignored though.. wow, that was such a wonderful game for me. Total annihilation as my opponent tried (in vain) to catch Solo. Um... my opponent didn't have much fun.

Even with out manouver, a 2 dice attack ain't that huge threat thought. You need to bank on the proton rocket but there are matchups where it won't be impossible to land and most other time you will just have focus to mod

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

 

Been there, done that. Done.   

Much rather talk about other real 2.0 ships, lists, upgrades, tactics, and gameplay. 

Mostly I am not at all done being hyped about how cool First Order, Republic, CIS, and even other Rebel Lists are to play and try to figure out.

I'm pretty tired of this rethoric. Han is far from being a 1.0 ship: compare it to og fat Han and he fall short in any aspect, from point cost to manouvrability (where the **** are the 1 hard for example) passing from offensive mod and arriving to the lack of layered defenses (R2d2 and situational rerolls are good yeah, but are you really comparing them to c3po, evade token being added to your dice on top of r2? Seriously?) 

Han costs 2/3rd of your whole list and has abysmal action economy. He Doesn't have a free 360,since you are trading it with your single passive calculate (and it is good, 360 'arcs' were an horrible mistake). 

Kanan, dampers and r2 are an obscenity, but you don't have access to in HS and it's something easily fixed by either give 1 charge to dampers or reverse the kanan ruling. 

This use of crying 1.0 every time there's something thats not pure jousting efficiency or imperial aces flying with perfect knowledge has become stale

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24 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

😆🤣🤣🤣 Wait, you're serious aren't you... 🤨 Assess Fearless not on Boba, a Fang, Sabine or in a squad containing Serissu… Range 1 (opponent gets extra red), Front arc primary only, In opponent's front arc (most ships will be able to shoot back if they haven't init killed you already), Convert 1 result to a hit. 3 points. The "Talent" rewards dumb flying unless it is on a Mando or on/along side Serissu. It is crap as a "Faction Talent"...

Fearless

Content warning?

That’s not a fair framework - faction talents can’t be universally good across all platforms. In most cases, I’d probably rather take Crack Shot versus almost any faction talent. 

For high initiative pilots, it’s good because it’s a soft mod that lets you keep your defensive focus if you can’t initiative kill your opponent. 

Fanatical provides a similar value in that it’s a soft mod allowing you to save focus for defense, or BR to get out of arcs. You have less agency though, because they can focus down the carrier so that he can’t reap benefits. 

Treacherous is a good defensive mod, but requires obstruction and may only get one use if your opponent accounts for it in target priority. Again, your opponent has agency.

Ruthless is worse Fearless that requires me to take a damage to do it, and have a nearby ship.

Heroic is sometimes good, but literally no one can affect the trigger. 

Dedicated may be good in the future, but I’m not sure I’ve seen it used to good effect yet. 

Selfless is legit good, especially in multiples or with Biggs. I’d say it’s second to Fearless only because of the potential to initiative kill an opponent removes their ability to shoot back, which is better than damage sharing. 

So, yeah, I think Fearless is the best FACTION talent, but typically I’m rarely using any of them except Fearless, Selfless, and sometimes Fanatical. Because if I’m paying points for it, I’m going to make sure I have agency in when it goes off and not pray to Duncan to save me when my dice go bad. 

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2 hours ago, LagJanson said:

Yeah, the Wedge version falls on its face. If your opponent targets Wedge, there's not much running you can do in an X-Wing and facing your opponent's squad the 2 shots seems accurate. I could usually kill one ship... but Wedge was worth more points than that one ship.

This is probably fine though, isn’t it? In this particular list, I’m not sure Wedge needs to actually pull his weight like he does in a Rebel Beef or other list, since Han can presumably win (or score adequate points and endure) some relatively unfair endgames. Really, as long as Wedge kills (or horribly maims) the one thing in other list that bothers Han the most, does he need to do much more?

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12 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

 

What were you playing? 

Jack's HS list had a 56 point Jake. While flying after at least a good bunch of your opponent list I'm not sure how safer than wedge those points are. 

Wedge/ Luke/Thane/Jake, with Crack Shot on Wedge and Thane.

I think with a 56 point Jake you very much don't engage. Have Han nibble at the edges, wait for them to go after Han, then bring Jake in.  Again, this is pure speculation.

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15 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

Even with out manouver, a 2 dice attack ain't that huge threat thought. You need to bank on the proton rocket but there are matchups where it won't be impossible to land and most other time you will just have focus to mod

Possibly true. I was hunting Rebel beef, and Jake shooting his popgun is sufficient when your opponent gets no dice and no return shots.

7 minutes ago, DoubleDown11 said:

This is probably fine though, isn’t it? In this particular list, I’m not sure Wedge needs to actually pull his weight like he does in a Rebel Beef or other list, since Han can presumably win (or score adequate points and endure) some relatively unfair endgames. Really, as long as Wedge kills (or horribly maims) the one thing in other list that bothers Han the most, does he need to do much more?

Maybe? I think you'd need to make better dial choices than I with the Falcon to pull it off (admittedly, not hard with my experience level and practice techniques.) - Losing a built up Wedge is significant points. Losing a naked Wedge isn't bad, but isn't going to hit near hard enough to do enough work in two turns (against most lists.)

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18 minutes ago, PaulRuddSays said:

Content warning?

That’s not a fair framework - faction talents can’t be universally good across all platforms. In most cases, I’d probably rather take Crack Shot versus almost any faction talent. 

For high initiative pilots, it’s good because it’s a soft mod that lets you keep your defensive focus if you can’t initiative kill your opponent. 

Fanatical provides a similar value in that it’s a soft mod allowing you to save focus for defense, or BR to get out of arcs. You have less agency though, because they can focus down the carrier so that he can’t reap benefits. 

Treacherous is a good defensive mod, but requires obstruction and may only get one use if your opponent accounts for it in target priority. Again, your opponent has agency.

Ruthless is worse Fearless that requires me to take a damage to do it, and have a nearby ship.

Heroic is sometimes good, but literally no one can affect the trigger. 

Dedicated may be good in the future, but I’m not sure I’ve seen it used to good effect yet. 

Selfless is legit good, especially in multiples or with Biggs. I’d say it’s second to Fearless only because of the potential to initiative kill an opponent removes their ability to shoot back, which is better than damage sharing. 

So, yeah, I think Fearless is the best FACTION talent, but typically I’m rarely using any of them except Fearless, Selfless, and sometimes Fanatical. Because if I’m paying points for it, I’m going to make sure I have agency in when it goes off and not pray to Duncan to save me when my dice go bad. 

Faction talents lay out a faction's core identity. Fearless defines Scum as Mandos + allot of chaff. Like it or not, Ruthless fits what the Empire is on average. As do the other 5 (Treacherous, Fanatical, Selfless, Heroic and Dedicated). Fearless only works effectively with ships/builds that have passive defensive mods, other wise flying to get it to trigger is flying dumb. Fearless is crap as a faction talent..

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9 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Faction talents lay out a faction's core identity. Fearless defines Scum as Mandos + allot of chaff. Like it or not, Ruthless fits what the Empire is on average. As do the other 5 (Treacherous, Fanatical, Selfless, Heroic and Dedicated). Fearless only works effectively with ships/builds that have passive defensive mods, other wise flying to get it to trigger is flying dumb. Fearless is crap as a faction talent..

The faction talents lay out themes, yeah, but I don’t think I’ve actually seen anyone play Ruthless... ever? So, which is more crap?

We can rephrase the question as, essentially, which faction talents are played? What percentage of lists contain at least one? I assume certain factions will have a higher rate, and moreover that those factions will be Scum, Rebels, and Resistance (not in that order).

 

 

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5 minutes ago, PaulRuddSays said:

The faction talents lay out themes, yeah, but I don’t think I’ve actually seen anyone play Ruthless... ever?

According to a small sample from early October, Ruthless is at least as playable as Leia

Also, Selfless is the best faction talent. Play vs a Rebel Beef without Selfless until you're comfortable with the game, then add in one Selfless and play until you want to shoot yourself in the face.

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8 minutes ago, PaulRuddSays said:

The faction talents lay out themes, yeah, but I don’t think I’ve actually seen anyone play Ruthless... ever? So, which is more crap?

We can rephrase the question as, essentially, which faction talents are played? What percentage of lists contain at least one? I assume certain factions will have a higher rate, and moreover that those factions will be Scum, Rebels, and Resistance (not in that order).

 

 

I would be curious about a parsing of the actual popularity of the 7 of them. I suspect if Fearless is in the top 3 it is because it is showing up barely more than the 4-5 below it.

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13 minutes ago, PaulRuddSays said:

The faction talents lay out themes, yeah, but I don’t think I’ve actually seen anyone play Ruthless... ever? So, which is more crap?

It sort of hurts that it's possibly in the worst possible faction to take advantage of it.

For what it's worth though, I've used it and gotten a bit of use out of it. I made an HS Trial cut with Ruthless in the list, but frankly it was a toss up last point in the list that could have easily been Crack Shot or a bid, none of which I felt was much more valuable than the other.

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