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44 minutes ago, SnooSnarry said:

Problem with quiz right now is you have to take supernatural to get value out of him, but that means you'll very rarely use his pilot ability. You're just trying to find the range 1 spot to shoot a 3 dice gun without spending a force because you have none. He needs to cost considerably cheaper for me to start considering him over a defender.

Disagree, Advanced Sensors is pretty great on him.

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21 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

if Grand Galactic inquisitor could take 7b he would be viable

He's really hard to kill but he doesn't do any real damage is his problem. 

Are people not using his ability to get a third attack die? Since when are 3 die attacks not doing damage? You even have a second force to use to mod it sometimes. 

I feel like Mugatu on here.

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

Are people not using his ability to get a third attack die? Since when are 3 die attacks not doing damage? You even have a second force to use to mod it sometimes. 

I feel like Mugatu on here.

At 56 points, the Empire has a lot of options to get the same Init and firepower. something comparable for cheaper, or better for the same cost.

Edited by AlexW

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16 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

Are people not using his ability to get a third attack die? Since when are 3 die attacks not doing damage? You even have a second force to use to mod it sometimes. 

I feel like Mugatu on here.

When I've flown him I almost never used his ability since I was already at range 1... if it let me get 4 dice at range 1 like a regular 3 die ship it would be more useful :)

Granted that was supernatural inquisitor who is always doing 3 actions/turn and knife fighting; YMMV without supernatural. But that's indeed part of the problem: I'm pretty sure the raw action efficiency from supernatural + v1's linked actions + blue 1 turns was already partially priced into the chassis and with supernatural going up so much it probably needs to be revisited.

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Here's a showerthought:

GrandInq actually struggles with higher relevance of maneuvers!

No clue whether that is right. But it sounds possible if not plausible to me, here's my train of thought:

  • In principle he has great dice with 3 attack and 4 defense
  • but for that, he needs to stay at range 3
  • or more realistically constantly switch between arc dodging, disengaging and coming back for r3 shots
  • And doing that reliably is much harder without double repositioning PTL from 1.0
  • He still kinda can with SNR, but that makes him too expensive to be cost effective

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Quiz vs L'ulo is interesting. Like, I'm not sure which I'd rather have in my squad in some theoretical cross-faction game where they cost the same. Probably lean slightly towards Inqy because Force is good? 

Anyway, for the next points balance, I'm pretty sure those two things can nearly meet somewhere in the middle (which means Quiz could go down a lot). 

Unrelated, are people really so scared of triple Lothal Rebels? Points fortressing could happen, but I believe in your ability to arc dodge those i2 repositionless large bases and do half damage to a couple of them. Hera seems fine where she is (maybe even go down a little?) but 5 points difference between her and the Lothal seems silly. If we weren't so scared of triple Ghost I think the Lothal could go down 5 or more points. 

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5 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

Unrelated, are people really so scared of triple Lothal Rebels? Points fortressing could happen, but I believe in your ability to arc dodge those i2 repositionless large bases and do half damage to a couple of them. Hera seems fine where she is (maybe even go down a little?) but 5 points difference between her and the Lothal seems silly. If we weren't so scared of triple Ghost I think the Lothal could go down 5 or more points. 

Reflexively, yes. Yes, I'm very afraid of seeing three 4-red dice attacks coming at me with reinforce, k-turns, and lots of health.

I'm not spending much time on figuring out if it's actually that bad, it's Extended still, but instinct is to cringe.

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21 minutes ago, punkUser said:

When I've flown him I almost never used his ability since I was already at range 1... if it let me get 4 dice at range 1 like a regular 3 die ship it would be more useful :)

Granted that was supernatural inquisitor who is always doing 3 actions/turn and knife fighting; YMMV without supernatural. But that's indeed part of the problem: I'm pretty sure the raw action efficiency from supernatural + v1's linked actions + blue 1 turns was already partially priced into the chassis and with supernatural going up so much it probably needs to be revisited.

Alright, I think we need to run the comparison of Soontir vs Grand Inq.

Each naked, which would you want for the same cost?

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

Not really, but leads into the next question which is do you think Soontir is undercosted?

I've considered that a bunch over the past few months and it's hard to form an opinion. On one hand in a lot of games he does more than 52 (54 w/ pred) points of work for me, but conversely it's not terribly uncommon for him to just explode before doing anything much. I'm not sure how to properly "cost" the latter :) Clearly he's not worth as much as similar double repo aces who are more durable, but if left alone he does just as much damage as them.

In any case 52-54 at least seems about in the right range to me... for the purposes of this discussion it's "close enough" and I think inquisitor is the clear outlier in terms of cost when comparing the two.

I'd definitely say inquisitor should be closer to Lulo than Soontir. Now one can definitely make an argument that Lulo is too cheap, but in my opinion in most cases Lulo ~ inquistor < soontir. Personally I'd probably take Lulo over quiz most of the time.

Edited by punkUser

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6 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Reflexively, yes. Yes, I'm very afraid of seeing three 4-red dice attacks coming at me with reinforce, k-turns, and lots of health.

I'm not spending much time on figuring out if it's actually that bad, it's Extended still, but instinct is to cringe.

 

4 minutes ago, Crit Happens said:

Imagine Upsillons with a K turn. Yes, that worries me. 

Yeah I think what differentiates this is no Tavson. If they get too cheap Magva and Saw crew are mini-Tavsons and start breaking stuff, but if they reinforce, they're only rolling 2 hits on average. The damage output is pretty low unless they want to also let you do a bunch of damage to them.

The main problem really becomes slow play honestly, which is a problem with literally any list (I could theoretically choose to take 60-120 seconds or so to set each of my dials with any list, and probably not get DQed for that). 

It all comes back to the social contract that was discussed a bit when the fortressing rule was made. It's actually impossible to prevent people from points fortressing, but it doesn't happen much because it's boring and ultimately people play X-Wing to have fun. People only fortress if it's obviously the best way to win the game, and honestly, points fortressing with triple Ghost sounds difficult enough that I don't see a lot of people trying to use it as a path to a Worlds invite. 

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2 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

Not really, but leads into the next question which is do you think Soontir is undercosted?

Not really, he’s different, but the same kinda faction level ship to select as Wedge in his T-65; and Soontir just doesn’t have enough to be usable above his current cost, it’s his final reason to be selected, IMO.

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29 minutes ago, AlexW said:

At 56 points, the Empire has better options to get the same Init and firepower. something comparable for cheaper, or better for the same cost.

 

3 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

Alright, I think we need to run the comparison of Soontir vs Grand Inq.

Each naked, which would you want for the same cost?

I mean that’s the problem. Soontir with Predator is 54, +1I, always on 3 dice attack, and can double reposition AND double mod every turn possibly. Or double defensive mod. If you maneuver right.

Inquisitor is 56 naked. If I could get FCS and a cheap force power for the same price as Predator Soontir? It becomes an interesting choice. Like getting Sense or Brilliant Evasion even. Do I think that FCS Brilliant Evasion Inquisitor is better than Soontir? Eh probably not. But that’s probably close.

At current prices that’s a 10 point difference.

There is no build at current prices for the GI that I would use. I will always take Soontir or Echo over him. Drop him to 50 or below ( I really feel 48 is the point where he becomes an interesting choice with the mix of powers available) and it’s a different story. Like if my proposed GI build was 56 points then the choice of him for two points more than Soontir is worth considering. Same with Echo. But naked never, and to make him worth contemplating means adding more points to an overpriced pilot.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

Not really, but leads into the next question which is do you think Soontir is undercosted?

Not even close. His price is reflective of the high risk high reward. Fragile ships* can’t cost too much before they are unplayable. And he can, and will be, one shorted. And he can, and will, solo lists. It’s all a bit luck, a lot of skill, and always going in with an exit plan.

His price feels about perfect. Yes he can punch above his weight, but sometimes that unmodded range 3 shot from a stressed TIE fighter will still kill him. He feels like he rewards good play.

*theres a reason I favor the I1 Striker over the I1 Interceptor. The extra health makes a huge difference at that initiative. Interceptors are too fragile, and prone to blowing up before shooting, to be a reliable component for that bracket. Still hasn’t stopped me! But my squad is still typically 3 Strikers and two Interceptors for a reason. That extra health means that anything short of a fully molded protorp is unlikely to one shot them.

Edited by millertime059

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Just now, Biophysical said:

Dammit, I have to put Inq on the table for real now.  In my headsim he's way better than the general assessment, and I have to figure out if I'm right.  

Give it a shot and report back :) Supernatural quiz was a force due to the combo with the linked actions, but he loses a *lot* without SN, and he's pretty clearly not worth the price with it anymore after the hike.

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3 minutes ago, punkUser said:

I've considered that a bunch over the past few months and it's hard to form an opinion. On one hand in a lot of games he does more than 52 (54 w/ pred) points of work for me, but conversely it's not terribly uncommon for him to just explode before doing anything much. I'm not sure how to properly "cost" the latter :) Clearly he's not worth as much as similar double repo aces who are more durable, but if left alone he does just as much damage as them.

In any case 52-54 at least seems about in the right range to me... for the purposes of this discussion it's "close enough" and I think inquisitor is the clear outlier in terms of cost when comparing the two.

I'd definitely say inquisitor should be closer to Lulo than Soontir. Now one can definitely make an argument that Lulo is too cheap, but in my opinion in most cases Lulo ~ inquistor < soontir. Personally I'd probably take Lulo over quiz most of the time.

If they were the same point cost I think it would be a meta call on which I took, which is exactly what we want in listbuilding. However, the ability to take both in the same list also really requires consideration. In headsim, I think 54 for both would be fine.

I also really really hate comparing cross faction. There are so many other factors that play into costs. So many of the comparisons leave out that Resistance doesn't have something like Sloane or Palpatine, and hopefully won't because if either of those power multipliers exist then the RZ2 cost will have to change in reaction to an upgrade that may or may not be included.

2 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Dammit, I have to put Inq on the table for real now.  In my headsim he's way better than the general assessment, and I have to figure out if I'm right.  

I was testing Whisper, GI, and Duchess for Adepticon before I decided not to go. He's way better than people are giving him credit for, but @millertime059 is correct that the things that Inq needs to really shine are so good on other ships as well that his good builds just can't compete with the really heavily burdened 60+ point range options in Empire.

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2 hours ago, LagJanson said:

As a Mauler fan (best character in the movies) I'm totally in. Helped win me dice in the past. I thought about afterburners, to be honest. I find it hard to put more points on a TIE Fighter.

I'm sure it's not worth it at all, but man it's funny to pretend he's an Ace for 2 turns

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Just now, impspy said:

I'm sure it's not worth it at all, but man it's funny to pretend he's an Ace for 2 turns

Well, when you got Vader coming in on one side, Fel on the other and Mauler right up the middle... who suddenly boosts into range 1.... That poor soul has to ask some very difficult questions.

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3 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

If they were the same point cost I think it would be a meta call on which I took, which is exactly what we want in listbuilding. However, the ability to take both in the same list also really requires consideration. In headsim, I think 54 for both would be fine.

You'd pay 54 points for naked inquisitor? Wow, I wouldn't touch him anywhere in the 50s and I'd probably think really hard about other options in the high 40s too ;) I think there's good reasons why you literally never see him played competitively and it can't be that he's just 2 points too expensive...

 

3 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

I also really really hate comparing cross faction. There are so many other factors that play into costs. So many of the comparisons leave out that Resistance doesn't have something like Sloane or Palpatine, and hopefully won't because if either of those power multipliers exist then the RZ2 cost will have to change in reaction to an upgrade that may or may not be included.

Like it or not, cross-faction comparisons are totally fair in my opinion, especially when comparing *chassis*. Sure, some upgrade cards will have specific faction-specific combos that don't exist in another one, but chassis should be roughly appropriately costed across the factions or else you get into the murky waters of the designers pricing *lists*, not ships. Purely reactive price changes also run that risk which is why they still need to be considered in the context of a range of reasonable prices for a given chassis (unless of course the goal is to completely nuke a specific combo or ship for the purposes of rotating it out of play, which is obviously "fine" as well).

Pricing stuff primary based on the presence or absence of other upgrade cards in the faction is ultimately a strategy that is going to end in a spider-web of inconsistent valuations. In the long run that's effectively just giving up at coming up with appropriate relative prices for stuff, which I don't think is necessary or useful.

 

3 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

I was testing Whisper, GI, and Duchess for Adepticon before I decided not to go. He's way better than people are giving him credit for, but @millertime059 is correct that the things that Inq needs to really shine are so good on other ships as well that his good builds just can't compete with the really heavily burdened 60+ point range options in Empire.

If "the stuff he needs to shine" makes other chassis shine even more, isn't that a pretty clear indicator that he costs too much relative to those other chassis?

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4 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Like "Why the **** did the player put me here"?

Well, yeah, that’s always a good first question! Maybe you’re a reinforcing Hera, she probably cares somewhat less if she can erase Mauler that turn.

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