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37 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Gas Clouds

  • No Consequences Clouds are dumb. 
  • Do these not make you roll for damage so they benefit Aces & Swarms more equally? 

 

7 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

When do I take clouds?!

Personally I don't like clouds for my list. I rely a lot on my obstacles to break up swarms. But that doesn't work with gas clouds anymore as they are right to completely ignore it.

A pure jousting list should take them. But if there are lists where you are wrong to joust, then IMO you shouldn't.

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3 minutes ago, viedit said:

Burner vader really likes them.

 1st engagement,  park behind them and get your lock and no consequences shot.  Next turn speed through, burner and vader after that.

Also talon rolling or 4-5 k turning through them seems like a legitimate strategy...

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3 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

A part of me thinks that Gas Clouds will for the most part be the primary obstacle used for all lists going forward. 

But if two opponents choose the same tactical approach then one is wrong, right?  I mean, if your choice of obstacles is the same one I'd pick for you if it were up to me, either you or I chose wrong.

Either my aces can use them better with greater maneuverability and great scaling effects or my swarm can take better advantage of them by essentially having open board everywhere.  Both advantages might exist, but one will be better and easier to exploit.  I feel it will take a lot of game time to reveal which, though...

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3 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

But if two opponents choose the same tactical approach then one is wrong, right?  I mean, if your choice of obstacles is the same one I'd pick for you if it were up to me, either you or I chose wrong.

Either my aces can use them better with greater maneuverability and great scaling effects or my swarm can take better advantage of them by essentially having open board everywhere.  Both advantages might exist, but one will be better and easier to exploit.  I feel it will take a lot of game time to reveal which, though...

Thats fair. Im not sure yet either.

It opens up the board if you are running a swarm or big/medium base ( good ). 

It opens up the board if you are running an ace ( less good ). 

It improves your defense if you are running an ace ( good ). 

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Just now, Ablazoned said:

But if two opponents choose the same tactical approach then one is wrong, right?  I mean, if your choice of obstacles is the same one I'd pick for you if it were up to me, either you or I chose wrong.

Either my aces can use them better with greater maneuverability and great scaling effects or my swarm can take better advantage of them by essentially having open board everywhere.  Both advantages might exist, but one will be better and easier to exploit.  I feel it will take a lot of game time to reveal which, though...

6 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

A part of me thinks that Gas Clouds will for the most part be the primary obstacle used for all lists going forward. I cant think of any list that doesn't prefer them besides maybe stress combos and debri. 

which in turn leads to idiots like me who say "I will continue to run gas clouds until I figure out why I'm wrong, however long that takes", so you should probably expect to see a lot of them for a while

 

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2 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

But if two opponents choose the same tactical approach then one is wrong, right?  I mean, if your choice of obstacles is the same one I'd pick for you if it were up to me, either you or I chose wrong.

Either my aces can use them better with greater maneuverability and great scaling effects or my swarm can take better advantage of them by essentially having open board everywhere.  Both advantages might exist, but one will be better and easier to exploit.  I feel it will take a lot of game time to reveal which, though...

1.)  I agree that there's a correct answer.

2.)  The system is complicated enough that my confidence in the right answer is pretty low.  

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Yep, I agree with @GreenDragoon the problem with clouds is if you dont have the advantage in a joust you are at a major disadvantage.

Personally I would prefer to have a disadvantage on the lists I beat on the joust and a advantage on the ones I dont because simply its easier to joust. In the current "meta" the 5 ywings or other rebel beef have a powerful joust and taking clouds only helps them out more. 

18 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

A part of me thinks that Gas Clouds will for the most part be the primary obstacle used for all lists going forward. 

I think Clouds will also have alot of play however I do not believe it is the right choice for the majority of lists and most the winners will be the ones who bring rocks and use them to out fly your opponent.

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12 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

A part of me thinks that Gas Clouds will for the most part be the primary obstacle used for all lists going forward. I cant think of any list that doesn't prefer them besides maybe stress combos and debri. 

Trick shot RZ-2s hate gas clouds. Anything that uses Trick Shot will hate them.

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Gas Clounds + Ailerons.  You only skip your action if your real maneuver goes over them.  I'm thinking 5x Black Squad + Trick Shot.

Anyhow, I tend to think you should have gotten a strain for flying over one.  Defensive benefit for obstruction, defensive penalty for hitting them.

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Alright conversation restarted. 

So what we THINK we know is this:

  • The best jousting list wants clouds
  • Swarms (often the best jousting list) likes clouds
  • Aces... might want clouds? But probably don't.
  • Strikers might want to YOLO right through the danged cloud?
  • Trick shot probably hates clouds... guaranteed extra evade on the defender for a random result on an extra red?
  • Hey, what does Blackout think of clouds? player3010587 mathed it out, seems good!
Edited by LagJanson
And now you know! And knowing is half the battle...

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Clouds seem better for movement for something like a Howl Swarm, but worse in shooting, because the ace can more easily hide from the block of arcs behind a cloud.

For heavy swarms like Yions, cloud seems a lot better, because they can spread out to limit the number of shots nullified by the cloud.  Or they can just go through the cloud.

 

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17 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

So what we THINK we know is this:

  • Aces... might want clouds?
  • Hey, what does Blackout think of clouds?

Id say aces dont want clouds. They help for defence but they need the negative effects of rocks over the extra positive effect of clouds.

Blackout is proably in the same house as trickshot carriers.

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2 minutes ago, K13R4N said:

Id say aces dont want clouds. They help for defence but they need the negative effects of rocks over the extra positive effect of clouds.

Updated.

2 minutes ago, K13R4N said:

Blackout is proably in the same house as trickshot carriers.

I'm not sure. If they don't have green dice to roll, they can't change one to an evade?

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Posted (edited)

Blackout wants clouds with Pattern Analyzer and Trickshot. Sure, they get blank >> evade, but if we're honest, when are they not doing that without clouds? Blackout's bonus die is pretty good against mitigated defense on a gas cloud. He also doesn't care about swerving away from them like most people do. He loses an action if he is parked inside, so? He gets passive defense and a bonus die while debuffing the defender. If he does a turnaround in or through a cloud, PA still gets him his actions, which is potent. His ability will trigger far more often than usual. Now let's take a look at the dmg race.

Trickshot Blackout v. 2 agi defender, shot not obstructed, both with focus: expected 1 dmg with 70% of hitting.

Same conditions, but Blackout is shooting through an asteroid: 2.3 dmg with 97%

Same conditions, but Blackout is shooting through a cloud: 2 dmg with 95% of hitting. Note that when the opponent has a focus behind a cloud, that is the equivalent of having an evade. No big deal if they have 1 agi!

 

Now it may seem that gas clouds (aside from all those massive benefits to his flight style aforementioned) are a nerf to Blackout. Not true, for he is trading minimal offense to gain a massive defensive buff! Consider:

3 firepower with focus against non-focused Blackout: 1.2 dmg with 72% of hitting.

3 firepower with focus against non-focused Blackout behind an asteroid: 0.9 dmg with 60% of hitting.

Same conditions, but Blackout is defending behind a cloud: 0.3 dmg with 28% of hitting.

 

TL;DR: no question: Blackout wants clouds.

 

Edit: While we're at it, let's suggest a very strange build for Quickdraw that deviates from the norm: Trickshot Collision Detector! Use it to park on a cloud, ignore its effects to gain an action, but now you Q'ira cheat to the extreme! It still checks out trickshot, so there goes the bonus die, but your collision detector ignores the defensive bonus of 1 agi and blank to evade! When they shoot back, you'll be rolling a bonus green and turning one of those greens to an evade, preserving those shields (it gets silly if you used an Upsilon to coordinate an evade token, but you'd probably just want to take a lock to double mod or save a mod for the 2nd attack should it trigger.

Edited by player3010587

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Posted (edited)

I'd say Blackout trick shot is fine since he gets +1 red and negates 2 greens, he has more chance to get damage through.

As a Tie Swarm player, I probably don't want a gas cloud. If my opponent happens to be behind one of them while all my swarm shoot at him, it's like shooting a large ship with a reinforce token. It severly reduce the damage output of 2 dice Ties. But I admit that the idea of 4K-ing over it with no consequence is neat. 

Edited by Ximatique

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Has FO just had a leap in power?

 

"Blackout" (64)    
    Trick Shot (2)    
    Pattern Analyzer (5)    
    
Ship total: 71  Half Points: 36  Threshold: 3    
    
"Quickdraw" (45)    
    Trick Shot (2)    
    Special Forces Gunner (10)    
    Collision Detector (6)    
    
Ship total: 63  Half Points: 32  Threshold: 3    
    
Lieutenant Tavson (62)    
Ship total: 62  Half Points: 31  Threshold: 6    
    
    
Total: 196    
    
View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=First Order&d=v6!s=200!237:133,206,,:;243:133,,,182,112,:;289:,,,,,,,:&sn=Tricksy Hobbitses!&obs=

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, player3010587 said:

Same conditions, but Blackout is shooting through a cloud: 2 dmg with 95% of hitting. Note that when the opponent has a focus behind a cloud, that is the equivalent of having an evade. No big deal if they have 1 agi!

If I am not mistaken it "Adds a Evade" which is ALOT better then a evade token now.

Shooting through a cloud at a 1 agility focused ship changes the defenders chances to:

Focused - 71.4% for 1 evade -- 0% for 2 evades

Focused + Evaded  - 100% for 1 evade -- 0% for 2 evades

Focused + Cloud - 100% for 1 evade -- 71.4% for 2 evades

 

Edit - Though your math is correct (except for the evade rule), you are forgetting the negative effect you can give your less manoverable opponent with rocks, playing with a silencer that has blue hard 2s and the barrel roll + boost actions it comes with.

Edited by K13R4N

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, K13R4N said:

If I am not mistaken it "Adds a Evade" which is ALOT better then a evade token now.

Shooting through a cloud at a 1 agility focused ship changes the defenders chances to:

Focused - 71.4% for 1 evade -- 0% for 2 evades

Focused + Evaded  - 100% for 1 evade -- 0% for 2 evades

Focused + Cloud - 100% for 1 evade -- 71.4% for 2 evades

Blackout is the Wedge Antilles of Shooting through Obstacles. When he shoots an obstacle-obstructed shot, the defender rolls 2 less green dice. 1 base agility + 1 obstructed bonus -2 Blackout ability = 0 dice and an f'd up Y-wing courtesy of Blackout!

latest?cb=20181213142908

Edited by player3010587

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4 minutes ago, K13R4N said:

Can someone confirm, does a Gas Cloud Add a evade or allows you to change one of your dice to a evade result?

When a ship moves through or overlaps a gas cloud, it skips its perform action step.

When a gas cloud obstructs an attack, the defender rolls one additional defense die, and may change one blank result to an evade result.

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5 minutes ago, K13R4N said:

Can someone confirm, does a Gas Cloud Add a evade or allows you to change one of your dice to a evade result?

It allows you to change a "blank" to an evade.

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