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5 minutes ago, gennataos said:

To clarify, @Sunitsa, I'm not sure why you're playing or posting.  If you don't like it at this point, I'm not sure why you continue.  

Valid point, I keep playing because I love my comunity and I used to love playing with plastic space ships too, so I keep going hoping that I might have been wrong on my ideas about current state of the game.

On why I keep posting I have no idea thought

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1 minute ago, Sunitsa said:

Valid point, I keep playing because I love my comunity and I used to love playing with plastic space ships too, so I keep going hoping that I might have been wrong on my ideas about current state of the game.

On why I keep posting I have no idea thought

Okay, I get it.  You probably keep posting for similar reasons, just don't realize it.  ;)

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1 minute ago, Sunitsa said:

Valid point, I keep playing because I love my comunity and I used to love playing with plastic space ships too, so I keep going hoping that I might have been wrong on my ideas about current state of the game.

I mean, I get that - I was really bummed at the end of 1.0 (before 2.0) announcement, I felt the same way: hated the game, but realized if I quite, I'd lose the people.

Fortunately, 2.0 came along and kept me from quitting. I really hope you start liking the game :( 

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4 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

 

I don't agree with a single word and I think that pretty much summarize why I despise second edition xwing.

First edition had variance, it wasn't chess, it's just that usually wasn't so important.

Lol ok, and for starts unsarcastically I hope you understand I didn’t quote you in that post because it was really more of a thought essay then reply, I just like to play with ideas presented to me and the more I thought about variance more I kept thinking of my own games and how much risk management I have had to do in 2.0 that we’re not nearly as much of a thing in late 1.0

and yes there was variance in 1.0 but it was terribly slight variance mid way through that games life. We got fcs, palp, autothrusters, predator, gunner, and far more that all really made focus and target lock actions a second thought, plus everything taking ptl and so on. Yes wholesome lists existed but in the competitive scene we saw all of these guaranteed results exist. And hey I played 1.0 from beginning to the death bed and used all of those tools. 

Now I understand if you don’t like risk...I totally get stressed out making decisions in game sometimes...it’s not a comfortable experience, but I feel it is exciting and makes every move matter in a whole new way. People gravitate to controls so I understand not liking things that are out of your control, but risk and uncertainty is where all the excitement of life lies, and the excitement of x wing. 

Idk I feel like my little thought essay explains all the points well, 2.0 x wing brings a whole new level of skills to the table and that’s exciting and fun and entertaining

21 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Not enough cursin' and disrespectin' to be worth the readin'

 

 

 

Actually, interesting take on the right move/wrong move changing to conservative/aggressive... I like that.

Oh oh yeah sorry I forgot where I was 

“listen mother******” lol 

no i really I’m understand why someone would not like all the variance, I just disagree that it doesn’t make this game better

one player can play the same ship differently, with aggression or with conservative moves and both be successful...or fail....and it makes every single game new in some way

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1 hour ago, Sunitsa said:

I'm not sure about Boba since I didn't try nor played against it, but I'm not sold at all about Poe/Lulo/x. It's not that's bad, but just that I don't see it as being good enough to deal with the rebel goodstuff lists that plagues my meta

They definitely do.

Paul 3 World Championships were the best testimony of how little variance mattered in 1.0 and Nathan is probably the best player I've ever watch playing in a stream.

You others suck thought :P

 

Simeons World Championship is the best testimony of how little variance mattered in 1.0 and Rasta is probably the best player I've ever watch playing in a stream. 

You others suck thought ❤️

 

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If 7x Z-95 with missiles are bad because too many get init killed before locks, why aren't 5 gunboats with missiles good* when they're 7hp 2 agility?

* If 5 missile gunboats are good, exactly where is the tipping point where you have enough missiles on target? If you could guarantee to fire them single-modded on round one, how many would you need before you'd be in?

Alternately, same question, but its 4x Ion Missile Freighter Captains. Or an imaginary, hypothetical 4x Contracted Scout with Ion Torpedoes.

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2 hours ago, RStan said:

Out of curiosity for someone who hasn't played the ace combat series, what's the holy trinity? 

 Ace Combat 3, 4, and 5. Centered around the Fictional nation of Osea. First two games you play as the ace combat universes Soontir Fel, Mobius 1; and the last game you play as Blaze, the ace combat version of Marek Steele. 

They are considered the holy trinity because the story actually has a plot that’s more than “plane fire missile at enemy and explode”. 

Ace Combat 6 is not included in the list because Bandai went back to the ridiculous plot lines, made it a Xbox 360 exclusive, which ace combat had been a PlayStation exclusive up to that point. however ace combat 6 has very good gameplay, it’s really HD ace combat 5 from a gameplay standpoint.

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11 minutes ago, FlyingAnchors said:

 Ace Combat 3, 4, and 5. Centered around the Fictional nation of Osea. First two games you play as the ace combat universes Soontir Fel, Mobius 1; and the last game you play as Blaze, the ace combat version of Marek Steele. 

They are considered the holy trinity because the story actually has a plot that’s more than “plane fire missile at enemy and explode”. 

Ace Combat 6 is not included in the list because Bandai went back to the ridiculous plot lines, made it a Xbox 360 exclusive, which ace combat had been a PlayStation exclusive up to that point. however ace combat 6 has very good gameplay, it’s really HD ace combat 5 from a gameplay standpoint.

Hey now, get that three out of here. It was good, but there are people who didn't have fond memories of it. Four was the groundwork for what the series could be, five told an amazing story about the squads relationship, and honestly i think zero perfected the two. Though five did make me cry.  Also zero gave us "THIS IS WHAT V2 IS FOR " which i bring up on x wing conversations all the time. Zero you are literally called "the demon lord of the roundtable" which is probably the coolest title from the series

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9 hours ago, chervorlovesu said:

Rules thread now, can you use han to double dip into 3po crew? Has there been an official ruling? People in my local store are not sure. 

I'm inclined to say no, and I've finally figured out a good way to express my thoughts on it.

I don't really buy into the argument that C-3PO doesn't specify a timing to check results, because C-3PO doesn't really care.  The ability doesn't care what's on your dice at any given time, but what you actually rolled.  It's the event of what happens when you roll the dice that matters.  Contrast Heroic.  Heroic doesn't care if you rolled all blanks or not, doesn't care at all about the event of rolling the dice.  It cares if your dice end up on all blanks.  That's what makes it nifty on a Finn Falcon.  If the end result is all blanks, if that's what's on your dice right now, you can reroll.

C-3PO, however, isn't worded anything like that.  "If you roll exactly that many evade results" is the text.  Not "if you have exactly that many evade results."  Rerolling with Han--if the original roll missed--doesn't seem at all relevant to me, because I don't see where on C-3PO he cares about how many results of what kind are in your dice pool, instead only the event of the actual roll.

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12 hours ago, Sunitsa said:

I don't agree with a single word and I think that pretty much summarize why I despise second edition xwing.

First edition had variance, it wasn't chess, it's just that usually wasn't so important.

I'm not sure why everyone was so dismissive to this - you're allowed to not like the same thing.

 

There's plenty of people that don't like the increased variance in 2e - and to be clear, there is increased variance in 2e.  That being said, we were pretty close to dice being more or less irrelevant in 1e, so whether or not it's good to have moved from that is a matter of personal taste.

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, TheOz said:

so I believe the dice variance actually ADDS additional skills to the game and makes maneuvering and action choices far more interesting! 

...

Dice give and take...for everyone!

High variance is good for casual games, because it creates the excitement and can be fun, and also because it levels the field, so the worse players are motivated to participate.

However in highly competitive complex games you usually want to have the least amount of variance possible (although zero variance is also not desirable, because it usually means the game will be kind of stiff and boring..).

I have to agree with @Sunitsa here that during its "better" days, 1.0 was more suitable for highly competitive play, with decreased variance and increased focus on squad building and meta-game / strategy phase.

 

14 hours ago, TheOz said:

The fact that fenn rau can just die at range 3 actually makes him a necessary arc dodge or get in range 1, and if you do want to take a shot with him but it’s gonna open you up to a range 3 shot, it’s a risk you have to choose to make and it’s not right or wrong, it’s a risk but it may be a move you need to make.

Good that you mention Fenn here, because I think it's a good example of what designers have kind of botched in 2.0.

The "true Aces" type of ships have been so comprehensively nerfed in 2.0 up to the point where they are almost always suboptimal choise in list building.

They now have basically zero "safe space" except if they manage to dodge all arcs, or are completely out of combat. And dodging all arcs is simply not practically possible against many lists when played by competent players.

So what it means now is that if you make a choice to play such ships, you need to accept that the dice variance will play a huge role in your games.

Which is a pity, because I think these are some of the most interesting ship types in the game, and their limited viability gives way to the more safe and boring choices.  Which usually means flying bricks with very limited maneuverability but lots of health, which simply don't really care about defensive dice.

So you have not created a more interesting environment with high defense dice variance, you have instead created a more limited environment and forced players to go for the more boring options.

There is a reason why 4 or 5 ship rebels with Leia is the best list right now, and why the most competitive-minded players flock to that!

 

14 hours ago, TheOz said:

idk, just wanted to say that even though a player could play a good game and lose, I feel the game is far more nuanced then just that...even in life good choices don’t always pay off and I have not walked away from a game I couldn’t learn from, I’m not on a chess forum for a reason

No, with high dice variance the game is not more nuanced.

I see much more regularely that games are decided by dice than it was in 1.0.

If you have two highly skilled players, who make pretty much always the optimal or nearly optimal moves in the game, then the outcome is usually decided by very tiny details (this applies to any game pretty much).

In 2.0 these very tiny details are very often the dice rolls.

 

Edited by baranidlo

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1 hour ago, Brunas said:

I'm not sure why everyone was so dismissive to this - you're allowed to not like the same thing.

 

There's plenty of people that don't like the increased variance in 2e - and to be clear, there is increased variance in 2e.  That being said, we were pretty close to dice being more or less irrelevant in 1e, so whether or not it's good to have moved from that is a matter of personal taste.

It's an interesting topic there, I think people are still struggling to wrap their head around the core of it.

Like, what exactly was broken in 1.0? Dice didn't matter/manoeuvring didn't matter.... builds just won?

Both matter much more now. That manoeuvring matters more is obviously a good thing for everyone. The dice..... 

You can certainly reduce variance an awful lot in list building and flying, but building and flying for the most reliable results honestly bores me. I like the risk. Which means playing cagey and attempting to control where the variance has a chance to bite me. If dice are really bad, it can also get a little boring and unrewarding, you end up having to take bigger risks for smaller rewards. Pratting about to no effect until you just joust the game over.

Perhaps this trade off plays into this jaded feeling, where it's just not quite interesting enough either way, once you take away the huge power list building used to have. You either truck about with some kind of efficiency or take the luck of the dice.

Hyperspace relates to this too. I'm not sold on it. Efficiency or multiple alt arcs seems king. Neither really bring much risk or lunacy to the table. So The Fenntastic Four, efficiency is there, but also much risk. Lacks lunacy. I still enjoy it.

Perhaps it's just that if you don't like variance and risk, but you do like to fly in interesting ways, you're kinda boned.

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Sunitsa said:

Valid point, I keep playing because I love my comunity and I used to love playing with plastic space ships too, so I keep going hoping that I might have been wrong on my ideas about current state of the game.

On why I keep posting I have no idea thought

I think there is potential for interesting and viable lists in 2.0, even if you are a triple Aces or dual Fat Turret player.

In the Aces department, the "true Aces" ships are lacking a lot, but there are some options in the "Ace-Tank hybrid" (Poe) or "Pocket-Ace" (RZ2 A-wing) ship types. So mostly Resistance - and it's also HS legal.

For the 2 ship turret list, I think there should be a good list for this in Scum - Boba Fett with the full OP loadout (so Maradauer, Han Gunner, Perceptive Copilot) and some wingman (maybe Hate Asajj?).

Boba with his full OP loadout is still incredibely strong ship, he thrives in the end game, and usually can go 1 against 2, or even 3 (damaged) ships.

So this should be then the matter of finding the correct wingman to get him there..

Edited by baranidlo

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