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15 hours ago, gennataos said:

I play four ships and have played against plenty of tanky Hans, which is why I don’t believe. I’ve learned that the falcon is the priority target while I have as many ships on the table as possible to burn it down. Really, we’re squarely in “no, u” territory. /shrug

Hey fair enough - just means that we need to play a show match for glory, honor, and beer.

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8 hours ago, apoapsis said:

What is the main draw of 5A over 5 optics SFs? Is it mainly the dial and boost? I've no table time with either so I don't have a feel for it.

As I see it, the main advantages of A-Wings are likely (haven't gotten to A-Wings yet):

  1. L'ulo Lampar.  Backdraft probably isn't bad in a BD+4 Zeta list, but L'ulo might be the best ship in Resistance.
    1. The other Resistance aces have a bunch of potential, too.
  2. Boosts are amazing.  Getting a 135 degree turn instead of only a 90 degree turn opens up a lot of flight options.  Additionally, the fact that an A-Wing can Boost+Focus matters.  SFs can't Barrel Roll and focus.
  3. Talent slots.  Init 1 Blues get one, for easy Trick Shot or Heroic.  Omega SFs can't afford to both take optics and fill their talent slot.

The main advantages of SFs, as I see it (only tried them for the first time earlier this evening):

  1. Statistically a bit tankier.  It'll take a bit more incoming fire to kill an SF.  A-Wings can get hot green dice, but they can also blank out and die in a single Range 1 shot from a 3-red ship.
  2. Higher Init generics.  Seems like many 5A run at least a few Init 1s.  While there are fewer aces options for SFs, Init 2 is rising in popularity these days.  At least matching that with Zetas, or going up to 3 on Omegas probably matters.
  3. 1 Forward to Victory.  The 1-straight and 1-bank moves can be pretty good when moving away from a scrum, but wanting to keep your guns in shorter range.  A-Wings can't really slow-roll in the same way.
  4. Generally more forgiving.
    1. You'll rarely be stuck with the choice of a bad move or clearing stress, since you typically don't get stressed and white SF dial is better than the blue part of the A-Wing dial.
    2. You'll never have your turret in the wrong arc--you've just got fore/aft guns.
    3. Factoring in the extra HP, they're probably a bit more resilient to a bump or such.
  5. Hotshot Gunner potential?  This one's kinda reaching, but denying a focus token to the target of mass fire isn't bad. Probably better to either run Backdraft or switch to Omegas.

While I've put more numbers in the SF category, the SF list is a lot of small things.  A-Wings get a few big advantages.  Boosts and L'ulo go a long way.

Edited by theBitterFig

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3 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

As I see it, the main advantages of A-Wings are likely (haven't gotten to A-Wings yet):

  1. L'ulo Lampar.  Backdraft probably isn't bad in a BD+4 Zeta list, but L'ulo might be the best ship in Resistance.  The other Resistance aces have a bunch of potential, too.
  2. Boosts are amazing.  Getting a 135 degree turn instead of only a 90 degree turn opens up a lot of flight options.  Additionally, the fact that an A-Wing can Boost+Focus matters.  SFs can't Barrel Roll and focus.
  3. Talent slots.  Init 1 Blues get one, for easy Trick Shot or Heroic.  Omega SFs can't afford to both take optics and fill their talent slot.

The main advantages of SFs, as I see it (only tried them for the first time earlier this evening):

  1. Statistically a bit tankier.  It'll take a bit more incoming fire to kill an SF.  A-Wings can get hot green dice, but they can also blank out and die in a single Range 1 shot from a 3-red ship.
  2. Higher Init generics.  Seems like many 5A run at least a few Init 1s.  While there are fewer aces options for SFs, Init 2 is rising in popularity these days.  At least matching that with Zetas, or going up to 3 on Omegas probably matters.
  3. 1 Forward to Victory.  The 1-straight and 1-bank moves can be pretty good when moving away from a scrum, but wanting to keep your guns in shorter range.  A-Wings can't really slow-roll in the same way.
  4. Generally more forgiving.
    1. You'll rarely be stuck with the choice of a bad move or clearing stress, since you typically don't get stressed and white SF dial is better than the blue part of the A-Wing dial.
    2. You'll never have your turret in the wrong arc--you've just got fore/aft guns.
    3. Factoring in the extra HP, they're probably a bit more resilient to a bump or such.
  5. Hotshot Gunner potential?  This one's kinda reaching, but denying a focus token to the target of mass fire isn't bad. Probably better to either run Backdraft or switch to Omegas.

While I've put more numbers in the SF category, the SF list is a lot of small things.  A-Wings get a few big advantages.  Boosts and L'ulo go a long way.

Also add in double reposition to the strengths of A-Wings. That and the dial are why the A-Wings are > S/Fs. While they don't slow roll as well as the SFs, they do kite a lot and that rear arc rarely puts them in a bad spot to clear stress and still have a shot. Good list though.

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1 hour ago, Aiwarikiar said:

What is that 5 SF list? 5 Zetas with AO and FCS?

I did 4 x Experts w/ Fanatical + Backdraft w/ Fanatical and a hull upgrade. It did ok once I got the hang of it. 

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O hey btw I wasn't paying attention before I watched some matches of kc...but C3p0 definitely doesn't trigger if you roll a non-evade which becomes and evade after using Han's ability.  Read the *ability queue* entry.  In the "after rolling dice* window, at the *very beginning* and *before anything else triggers*, all valid abilities are slotted into the queue.  If you don't meet the condition for 3p0 to trigger at that moment, nothing that happens afterwards will let you change that.

Think about this case.  Unkar plutt pilot is touching a friendly ship at the start of engagement.  He rolls himself off.  Now he says "I'm not touching that friendly so he doesn't get a tractor."  That would be incorrect.  The moment engagement starts, it is determined that both ships will get a tractor, and both go into the queue I'm the order that player decides.  Just because after doing one you no longer meet the condition *doesn't retroactively prevent* the second from occuring.

And this is coming from a Han purist, might I add.  I locally rule that he's not a reroll and therefore not a dice modification and therefore goes through Midnight and magva.  But he *definitely doesn't work with the golden Droid*.

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20 hours ago, millertime059 said:

So even after the points change, I am shy to bring it out. And would not bring it out in a tourney. Not because I think it is bad, per se. in fact the times I’ve flown it post points I’ve found it quite good, though the Resistance 4x I5 list makes me real nervous. It’s brutal when flown well, and I am hands down one of the best Striker and Interceptor pilots in my region.

There is the variance in the negative aspect, but there is also the variance in the positive.  When your opponent just struggles to get hits on Tie Fighters with only a Focus....it's a beautiful thing.  That....or Tie Fighters landing hits on a regular basis, even at R3.  That keeps me coming back to it.  

17 hours ago, Sunitsa said:

Does anyone have a video of someone successfully arcdodging to win in second edition without having SN, sensors, decloak nor BB8?

I don't know of a video, but....I don't think Arc Dodging happens on such a regular basis as it did in 1st Ed.  It happens, but just not every turn.  I think that's a good thing, to be honest.  I have used Vader in the end game and done a lot of Arc Dodging.  One hard turn and BR can get him in crazy good positions.   It's usually at the end of the game, though, and doesn't always come down to knife fighting, but it does happen.  

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Isn't Hux + 3 SF's a better list than 5 sf? You trade 2 SF's in order to have:

• 3 modified 3 dice attacks and sometimes a modified 4 dice attack. Sometimes a double tap here and there as well.

• The ability to token stack or BR/lock with a focus, making the individual SF's more powerful on offense or defense (seriously, a 2 agi token stack can defensively mess with multioke shots of 2 red dice, even with optics).

• Some serious ace control/denial

• The same amount of health, but less RNG dependent as its reinforceable

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Aiwarikiar said:

What is that 5 SF list? 5 Zetas with AO and FCS?

There's not as many options for the SFs as the RZ-2s since they don't have as easy access to talents or as many pilots, so it's likely this or 5 Omegas with optics. FCS+optics actually gives a reasonable damage bump over just optics - on 2 dice you get 2 hits 94% of the time vs 81% with just optics (you get the same damage output with optics+fanatical) but it's probably hugely situational. I think I'd probably go to I3 and have 5 Omegas with optics. You can also get backdraft or a gunner in there instead of FCS.

Edited by apoapsis

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30 minutes ago, player3010587 said:

Isn't Hux + 3 SF's a better list than 5 sf? You trade 2 SF's in order to have:

• 3 modified 3 dice attacks and sometimes a modified 4 dice attack. Sometimes a double tap here and there as well.

• The ability to token stack or BR/lock with a focus, making the individual SF's more powerful on offense or defense (seriously, a 2 agi token stack can defensively mess with multioke shots of 2 red dice, even with optics).

• Some serious ace control/denial

• The same amount of health, but less RNG dependent as its reinforceable

Coming only from my headsim:

1.)  His means your list is self stressing a lot.

2.)  When you're two SFs down with Hux, you lose a lot of ability to pressure people because the Upsilon is going to have limited places it can go.  When you're down 2 SFs in a 5 SF list, you've got 3 fighters left with tins of arcs for interlocking fields of fire.

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31 minutes ago, player3010587 said:

Isn't Hux + 3 SF's a better list than 5 sf? You trade 2 SF's in order to have:

• 3 modified 3 dice attacks and sometimes a modified 4 dice attack. Sometimes a double tap here and there as well.

• The ability to token stack or BR/lock with a focus, making the individual SF's more powerful on offense or defense (seriously, a 2 agi token stack can defensively mess with multioke shots of 2 red dice, even with optics).

• Some serious ace control/denial

• The same amount of health, but less RNG dependent as its reinforceable

Idk...maybe?

What concerns me is that your Upsilon is only a SKB, not Tavson. As @Biophysical said, once you're SFs start dropping it really hurts more so in this list since the SKB is not finishing a game for you. I'm not sure where you're getting your "serious ace control/denial" besides just lining up 4 arcs as you don't have room for Phasma, which is a big deal for the Upsilon. If Hux is stressing your SFs, those front arcs are not turning around to gain the Gunner advantage. Maybe Conc missile SFs with Hux are better since that allows your Upsilon to be Tavson now and include Phasma. Although with Hux's coordinate being red, Tavson can't maximize his ability without trying to fit Adv sensors and that becomes a very beefy Tavson. I'd like Hux to be good, but as it stands right now, his point cost is a bit too high. 

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9 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Coming only from my headsim:

1.)  His means your list is self stressing a lot.

2.)  When you're two SFs down with Hux, you lose a lot of ability to pressure people because the Upsilon is going to have limited places it can go.  When you're down 2 SFs in a 5 SF list, you've got 3 fighters left with tins of arcs for interlocking fields of fire.

I dont hate Hux on Stridan. Also semi interested in this to support 2 or so SFs.  

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3 hours ago, Aiwarikiar said:

What is that 5 SF list? 5 Zetas with AO and FCS?

There's a few options for Optics lists, but none seem that much better than the others.

  • 5 Zeta + AO + Bid (probably foolish, but it does protect some MOV in a list which will bleed MOV)
    • I kinda don't like the thought of FCS; I want to be focusing all the time anyhow.
  • 5 Zeta + AO, one of which with Hotshot Gunner (with the downside that you can't just rear-arc-and-forget-it)
  • 4 Zeta + AO + Backdraft (Trick Shot/AO seems best to me, in an Optics list)
  • 5 Omega + AO

For A-Wing options, there's a bunch of talent and pilot picks to go with.

8 hours ago, Scott Pilgrim2 said:

Also add in double reposition to the strengths of A-Wings. That and the dial are why the A-Wings are > S/Fs. While they don't slow roll as well as the SFs, they do kite a lot and that rear arc rarely puts them in a bad spot to clear stress and still have a shot. Good list though.

Touche on double-repo.  I'm just too greedy for focus.

As to the rest, I guess I'm splitting hairs on how I'd describe things, but I'd call that superior actions rather than superior dial.  SF is almost never stressed, so over and above the blues of an A-Wing, they'll have 3 hard, and 1 straight/banks.  The only dial-move an A-Wing can do that an SF can't is the 5-K.  The A-Wing isn't getting better position from their dial: they're getting better position from their boost.  Granted, the A-Wing dial has so much blue that they're able to use their boost, but I think the sine-non-qua is the linked boost.

If the RZ-2 had Fang blues--lost the 3-bank and 4/5-straight--I think it'd still probably be more mobile in the end, due to the boost options.  I think it'd take going down to no-hard TIE Fighter blues for the linked Boost to no longer matter.  But if the A-Wing couldn't link boosts, I think it'd clearly be a lot worse than the SF.

27 minutes ago, player3010587 said:

Isn't Hux + 3 SF's a better list than 5 sf?

I'm sure it'll suit some folks better.  Stacking Evades on there seems really nice...

I think the 3 Optics SF seems like a decent enough base squad (that is, not necessarily Top Tables Large Tournament, but decent enough) to pair with anything.  A silencer like Kylo or Blackout, a loaded Quickdraw, or any well-built Upsilon.  Is that the same as 3A+Poe?  I dunno; likely not. But it's probably not so far behind that you shouldn't worry about it if you happen to have all the FO stuff from a conversion kit, but don't own Resistance stuff.

1 hour ago, viedit said:

I did 4 x Experts w/ Fanatical + Backdraft w/ Fanatical and a hull upgrade. It did ok once I got the hang of it. 

I'm certainly fascinated by non-Optics versions of 5 SF.  I'm kind of a sucker for Advanced Optics these days, though.  But I did have a lot of ships running around with shields down here and there, and Fanatical will open up more interesting actions later in the game.

///

Has there ever been an upgrade with a usage trajectory like Advanced Optics?  Seems like Weapons Guidance was basically ignored throughout 1e, and now at least some players can't get enough of it.

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The Hux stress is a big deal on the SFs, since it stops them turning easily or overshooting enemy ships. There are viable Upsilon + 3 ship lists (e.g. 8th in swiss at Toronto) but at that point it's a very different list from the 5 SFs.

If you drop to 3 optics SFs you can get Kylo, which seems good? It might just be a worse Poe + 3As. It's hard to tell with the First Order - they have a lot of list building flexibility but until other parts of the meta stabilise more it's tough to build squads that don't struggle with something else in principle.

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7 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I think the 3 Optics SF seems like a decent enough base squad (that is, not necessarily Top Tables Large Tournament, but decent enough) to pair with anything.  A silencer like Kylo or Blackout, a loaded Quickdraw, or any well-built Upsilon.  Is that the same as 3A+Poe?  I dunno; likely not. But it's probably not so far behind that you shouldn't worry about it if you happen to have all the FO stuff from a conversion kit, but don't own Resistance stuff.

 

I should have reloaded the page before posting, but yeah. It's tankier than 3A+Poe, but likely weaker in most other ways.

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I'm certainly fascinated by non-Optics versions of 5 SF.  I'm kind of a sucker for Advanced Optics these days, though.  But I did have a lot of ships running around with shields down here and there, and Fanatical will open up more interesting actions later in the game.

///

Has there ever been an upgrade with a usage trajectory like Advanced Optics?  Seems like Weapons Guidance was basically ignored throughout 1e, and now at least some players can't get enough of it.

Our reason for looking at Fanatical versions was that the SFs could decide to use the focus on defense and if they still lost shields, can still get mods on offense and then from there, they would just take evade action or lock (if they knew they weren't getting shot) to take advantage of Fanatical being active. Granted this meant no blank mitigation, but it did mean the SFs were hanging around longer. 

Weapons Guidance was basically ignored because 2 successful die results on offense didn't matter much and they were mostly used on arc locked ships. In 1e with autothrusters and turrets, it basically made the card useless. Now in 2e where 360 turrets are now set arcs that require actions to turn and mainly, no 1e autothrusters in the game, those 2 dice can "thousand cut" their way through if there are enough of them in squads like the 5As. 

Edited by RStan

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

You must have some very interesting takes on relationships...

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/L'ulo_L'ampar

And if anyone calls Tallie a "he" in front of me, it will be nothing but the smeagol voice for the rest of the game.

-Edit- The wiki also states he had an uncle relationship to Poe...I think Disney's the one with fascinating artistic directions, to put it mildly.

Edited by player3010587

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