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Just now, Scott Pilgrim2 said:

I think the simplest thing they could do is to FAQ/Errata Han to say "After you roll your dice, if you are in range 0-1 of an obstacle you may immediately reroll all of your dice. This does not count as a modification or a reroll." 

Probably not balanced, but at least it cleans up the language a bit even if "immediately" isn't a game term.

So now you can Han with a Blinded Pilot, or while Midnight has you locked.  Are you OK with that?  I don't know why those are the breaking point for most people, but they are.  Feelings are weird!

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4 minutes ago, Brunas said:

So now you can Han with a Blinded Pilot, or while Midnight has you locked.  Are you OK with that?  I don't know why those are the breaking point for most people, but they are.  Feelings are weird!

Not sure if I am okay with that - but there has to be a way to clean up his text. My personal preference is for Han to work like this - it is a dice mod, it allows rerolls, and he works with Lando but not C3PO because of the difference in their wording. Blinded Pilot and Midnight **** him, Magva limits his reroll to 1 dice. 

 

Also from the most recent rules reference: "In the case of Han Solo [Scoundrel for Hire] and other effects that reroll “all dice,” this means that if 1 or more dice are for any reason ineligible to be rerolled or modified, Han Solo still rerolls the available dice that are eligible." - so Magva doesn't stop his ability, just limits it to one die.

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19 minutes ago, Brunas said:

So now you can Han with a Blinded Pilot, or while Midnight has you locked.  Are you OK with that?  I don't know why those are the breaking point for most people, but they are.  Feelings are weird!

I've always assumed Han ignores Blinded, Midnight, and, well, everything else.  I don't necessarily like it, but "other game effects" seems largely clear to me. It's basically everything.  

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7 minutes ago, RStan said:

Put me down as not okay with that. 

 

Just now, Biophysical said:

I've always assumed Han ignores Blinded, Midnight, and, well, everything else.  I don't necessarily like it, but "other game effects" seems largely clear to me. It's basically everything.  

 

🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔

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2 minutes ago, RStan said:

Put me down as not okay with that. 

Same. Han is not a reroll as stated on the card, but my preference is that he's still considered a modification. Outside attack/defense rolls that has no relevance. If you draw the line there then the list Brunas put up breaks down like so -

  • Locks/other reroll effects
    • Han works fine, he's not a reroll
  • Lando
    • Han works fine, tokens are gained for results after Han reroll
  • rocks/obstacles/console fire, other random roll a die effects
    • Han works fine
  • C3PO
    • Han works fine, guess is applied to results after Han reroll
  • Blinded Pilot
    • Han doesn't work, he's a modification other than a Force
  • Midnight
    • Han doesn't work, he's a modification
  • Magva
    • Han works fine, he's not a reroll for other effects and Magva is another effect that prevents rerolls

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Just now, Makaze said:
  • Magva
    • Han works fine, he's not a reroll for other effects and Magva is another effect that prevents rerolls

I was with you till here - I'm not sure it's consistent to say Han is a reroll and therefore dice modification so can't get around Midnight, but Magva's hard "cannot" which...

Quote

If a card ability uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute and cannot be overridden by other effects.

doesn't apply, because actually Han means the other reroll, as in the act of picking up the dice and randomizing them again, but not the dice modification reroll...

 

The overloading of "reroll" is the silly/frustrating part of this.  It's a reroll, but not a reroll, and it's up for everyone to decide what that means for them!

 

WTB: Han that says "After rolling dice, you may spend a charge to reroll those dice.  Those dice may be rerolled again".  One charge, recurring.

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6 minutes ago, Brunas said:

 

WTB: Han that says "After rolling dice, you may spend a charge to reroll those dice.  Those dice may be rerolled again".  One charge, recurring.

I'd guess Han was originally worded something like that, but people kept using his ability to reroll his reroll a second time, so they quickly changed it to the mess it is now. 

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1 minute ago, player2072913 said:

I'd guess Han was originally worded something like that, but people kept using his ability to reroll his reroll a second time, so they quickly changed it to the mess it is now. 

Yeah, so it would have to be charge restricted to once a turn, which is much less thematic for Han... cheating all the time.

 

TOO MUCH THEME FFG, TURN DOWN THE THEME

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14 minutes ago, Brunas said:

I was with you till here - I'm not sure it's consistent to say Han is a reroll and therefore dice modification so can't get around Midnight, but Magva's hard "cannot" which...

I'm saying Han is (in a still less than ideal world but meh the best we can get with the wording as is) a modification, and therefore subject to restrictions on modifications such as Midnight. But is explicitly not a reroll so is not subject to things that restrict rerolls, such as Magva. The "cannot" would indeed reign supreme, if it applied, I'm arguing that in this case it doesn't (or shouldn't at least) since it applies to rerolls and Han is not a reroll

11 minutes ago, Brunas said:

TOO MUCH THEME FFG, TURN DOWN THE THEME

Unpossible

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I mean, people would interpret that as: roll dice once, spend the charge reroll with Han into another bad roll, then look at Han: 'those dice may be rerolled again', so they reroll them again. 

Obviously not the RAI of this hypothetical non-existent card, but a good case could be made for that interpretation. 

_

You're right that there is a line to be drawn somewhere, and I don't think it's at either extreme.

If they wanted han to interact with nothing (such as with Biophysical's interpretation), it could be worded as [Once per dice roll, immediately after rolling dice, you may pick up all your dice and roll them again]. -C3PO works here but not much else does. 

If they wanted han to interact with everything (i.e. it's still a dice mod for Magva etc) it could be worded as [After you roll dice, you may reroll all of your results. This does not count towards your limit of one reroll] - C3PO doesn't work here but most else does. 

However we got neither of those, so we're stuck in this nebulous mess :D. 

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Does Han alter his dice results? Yes, that is considered a modification. The bit about the eligibility of his reroll not counting against his reroll limit does not change that this is a modification. It simply doesn't count against your reroll cap of 1. Nowhere does it say anything about this no longer being considered a mod. At all. Thus, instead, at that point, it is considered a non-reroll modification, because you are modifying, but not technically speaking rerolling. It's sort of like Vermeil's ability, as it is not a typical changing of a result ability, but it for sure is not a reroll. To use the legalistic terms of Philosophy, the species of the Han's modification of his dice has changed (reroll to non-reroll), but the genus remains the same (modification). Thus, he can still pull his full mulligan against Magva, which is as much as a blessing as a curse. Similarly, he may not reroll on Blinded Pilot or Midnight. Let's look at the mother****ing text of the card for once:

latest?cb=20180913204219

Edited by player3010587

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48 minutes ago, player2072913 said:

I'd guess Han was originally worded something like that, but people kept using his ability to reroll his reroll a second time, so they quickly changed it to the mess it is now. 

 

46 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Yeah, so it would have to be charge restricted to once a turn, which is much less thematic for Han... cheating all the time.

 

TOO MUCH THEME FFG, TURN DOWN THE THEME

Would it really need a charge to only be used once per roll?  Wouldn't the standard once-per-opportunity rule have been enough?  Rerolling and rolling are not the same thing, so I don't think there would be a second trigger.

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5 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

 

Would it really need a charge to only be used once per roll?  Wouldn't the standard once-per-opportunity rule have been enough?  Rerolling and rolling are not the same thing, so I don't think there would be a second trigger.

Works for me! 

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11 minutes ago, player3010587 said:

Does Han alter his dice results? Yes, that is considered a modification. The bit about the eligibility of his reroll not counting against his reroll limit does not change that this is a modification. It simply doesn't count against your reroll cap of 1. Nowhere does it say anything about this no longer being considered a mod. At all.

Without having followed closely, I agree with this.

What speaks against this reading?

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5 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Without having followed closely, I agree with this.

What speaks against this reading?

Basically, in one of the rules book somewhere is a list of what is considered a modification. Reroll is on there but if han is not a reroll then he doesn't fit under anything else in the list. 

It comes down to: are game rules game effects? I really want to answer 'no' to that question, (i.e. Han's reroll-not-a-reroll is still a reroll and so is still a dice mod), but then that means Han's ability doesn't ignore the one reroll golden rule. 

Basically it's a mess and kinda has to be ruled on a case by case basis. 

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At times like this, it's also frustrating that FFG doesn't have more "statements of intent."  Like, a lot of video games, when they have patch notes, will have developer comments.  Oh, we're reducing the effect of this ability, so that some result happens.

Would it really have been so hard of FFG to have notes like this?  Either "we intend Han to be able to get away with anything" or "we only mean for it to apply to the can-only-reroll-once restriction" is fine.  I've got a preference, but a clear statement would be greatly satisfying even if it went against my own personal preference.  In general, I'm totally fine with "because I said so" rulings, like Genius/TrajSim in 1e was, so long as they're explicit that it's a "because I said so."

FFG ought to just slay the zombie Han forever.  No more "dead, but alive" or "reroll, but not a reroll."

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4 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

The rules define exactly four types of "dice modification:" add, change, reroll, and spend.  If using han's ability isn't considered a reroll...

Oh.

Like actions that clearly fail, but don't actually "fail" in game terms because they have no defined circumstances under which they fail? I see.

1 minute ago, player2072913 said:

Basically, in one of the rules book somewhere is a list of what is considered a modification. Reroll is on there but if han is not a reroll then he doesn't fit under anything else in the list. 

It comes down to: are game rules game effects? I really want to answer 'no' to that question, (i.e. Han's reroll-not-a-reroll is still a reroll and so is still a dice mod), but then that means Han's ability doesn't ignore the one reroll golden rule.  

Oooh.

What a mess. It makes sense to me that it is still supposed to be a modification, but it also looks like you are right that it can't ignore rules and not ignore rules with the same line as justification.

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16 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Without having followed closely, I agree with this.

What speaks against this reading?

DICE MODIFICATION
Players can modify dice by spending various tokens and by resolving abilities.
Dice can be modified in the following ways:
• Add: To add a die result, place an unused die displaying the result next
to the rolled dice. A die added in this way is treated as a normal die for all
purposes and can be modified and canceled.
• Change: To change a die result, rotate the die so that its faceup side
displays the new result.
• Reroll: To reroll a die result, pick up the die and roll it again.
• Spend: To spend a result, remove the die from the dice pool.

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23 minutes ago, player2072913 said:

Basically it's a mess and kinda has to be ruled on a case by case basis. 

Pretty much. They really need a 5th bullet there for "Han reroll" cause clearly it's a unique and special snowflake ❄️

  • Han Reroll: To Han reroll a die result, pick up the die and roll it again while pretending that's totally not what you're doing

Problem solved

Edited by Makaze

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