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2 hours ago, LagJanson said:

 

Both communities are very good, friendly people. The tricky bit is a cheater isn't necessarily any less friendly as they smile and slip a dial.  I agree the percentage of players who cheat is likely low, but when you land 100+ people and put prizes on the line the odds are somebody is trying to find advantages.

I played Parker in a regional a couple years back.  He seemed like a perfectly nice guy, very friendly.   Either he was a cheater and a nice guy, or something about tournaments seems to make nice guys cheat, I'm sorry, fix dials without saying anything.

Edited by Biophysical

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4 hours ago, Biophysical said:

I posted this in the regional thread, but it seems like a Krayt topic, so I'm bringing it up here.  

Fact 1.)  We have at least two high profile instances in nationals level (or better) events where there was dial changing caught on camera.  

Assumption 1.)  Cheating is much less frequent on stream than it is off stream, because most people don't want to be caught cheating.

Assumption 2.)  Anyone cheating on stream is making that decision without considering being on stream, which means they either forget they're on stream, or the decision to cheat is not a significant decision to them and some part if them forgets that doing it on stream matters.  

Fact 2:  A substantial portion of the playtesters (to bring up this old gem) do not honor their NDA.  They're the sort of people for whom dishonesty in a game is an acceptable action.  The overlap between high level players and NDA breaking playtesters has not been established, but both are likely to be interested in playing in nationals/continentals/worlds.

Conclusion:  cheating is rampant in X-wing.  From what we've seen, I don't think it's possible to say how much cheating is happening, but it's got to be a lot. 

 

I couldnt disagree more. 

Cheating and not being caught, gives you an advantage and therefore elevates your wins to be on stream. So, the amount of cheating in xwing is probably equal to what is out there on streams.

Players caught on stream/total amount of streamed players ever = almost zero percent.

 

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3 minutes ago, wurms said:

I couldnt disagree more. 

Cheating and not being caught, gives you an advantage and therefore elevates your wins to be on stream. So, the amount of cheating in xwing is probably equal to what is out there on streams.

Players caught on stream/total amount of streamed players ever = almost zero percent.

 

I hope you're right.

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11 hours ago, Biophysical said:

I posted this in the regional thread, but it seems like a Krayt topic, so I'm bringing it up here.  

Fact 1.)  We have at least two high profile instances in nationals level (or better) events where there was dial changing caught on camera.  

Assumption 1.)  Cheating is much less frequent on stream than it is off stream, because most people don't want to be caught cheating.

Assumption 2.)  Anyone cheating on stream is making that decision without considering being on stream, which means they either forget they're on stream, or the decision to cheat is not a significant decision to them and some part if them forgets that doing it on stream matters.  

Fact 2:  A substantial portion of the playtesters (to bring up this old gem) do not honor their NDA.  They're the sort of people for whom dishonesty in a game is an acceptable action.  The overlap between high level players and NDA breaking playtesters has not been established, but both are likely to be interested in playing in nationals/continentals/worlds.

Conclusion:  cheating is rampant in X-wing.  From what we've seen, I don't think it's possible to say how much cheating is happening, but it's got to be a lot. 

 

2 instances on stream (as shockingly stupid as it is) is hardly enough evidence to suggest rampant cheating is taking place. You’d need actual hard data from either TOs or majority of player accounts of this occurring. My feeling is that while this may be an unfortunate trend that’s emerging the community at large is still honest. 

Of course that being said, it would probably be a good idea for FFG to at least monitor by number of incidents and see if there’s a rising trend.

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3 hours ago, FlyingAnchors said:

2 instances on stream (as shockingly stupid as it is) is hardly enough evidence to suggest rampant cheating is taking place. You’d need actual hard data from either TOs or majority of player accounts of this occurring. My feeling is that while this may be an unfortunate trend that’s emerging the community at large is still honest. 

Of course that being said, it would probably be a good idea for FFG to at least monitor by number of incidents and see if there’s a rising trend.

I fully understand that this is not hard data, but two instances is much harder to shake off than one.  A much more punishing result for getting caught would seems appropriate. 

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14 hours ago, LagJanson said:

Both communities are very good, friendly people. The tricky bit is a cheater isn't necessarily any less friendly as they smile and slip a dial.  I agree the percentage of players who cheat is likely low, but when you land 100+ people and put prizes on the line the odds are somebody is trying to find advantages.

It definitely happens.  At Nationals I was paired up with a player who "tested" my observation and knowledge on a couple of occassions - removing a weapons disabled token from the board while I was moving my ships, trying to drop more bombs than they had equipped, then asking if I was going to drop so they could take a 100-0 win (er, no).  I picked up on it, so it didn't make any difference to the game result in the long run but I can't help but wonder how many times they might have tried (and got away with it) in other rounds.

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5 hours ago, FlyingAnchors said:

2 instances on stream (as shockingly stupid as it is) is hardly enough evidence to suggest rampant cheating is taking place. You’d need actual hard data from either TOs or majority of player accounts of this occurring. My feeling is that while this may be an unfortunate trend that’s emerging the community at large is still honest. 

Of course that being said, it would probably be a good idea for FFG to at least monitor by number of incidents and see if there’s a rising trend.

It's not just 2, however. A player got a ban out of it, and 2016 Canadian National had a player fudge with his dials, and number of torps on his Manaroo, on stream in the cut (this last one just got bounced out of our local community).

Taking my 7 year old son to tournament, I get to see how brazen people can be when they think their opponent won't pick up on it, and it's really shameful. It ranges to measuring arc wider than you should, to just skipping effects the other player isn't calling you on. I'm just glad that even with that going on, he still mostly wins, it'd be really depressing to have someone cheat just to manage to beat a 7 year old!

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Getting a hard number/percentage is not possible unless the cheaters all formally declare they are cheating in some recorded and countable way for us. I highly encourage them to do so for the sake of bringing some closure to this discussion and help determine if cheating is rampant or perhaps a single percentile of the community.

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Listening to the just dropped episode and I totally already have a Stridan/Kylo list in ready to try.  I was running a Kylo Shuttle/  Rexler Brath list that was something like 13-3 against a lot of really good lists (about half of them pre-nerf Nyms).  Stridan/Kylo (Silencer) will be better in most ways.

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Working on the new episode, isn’t the history of timed game tournament format just a line of slowly increasing point fortresses, where there was a break when Han went from 68 to 34 and Soontir started the climb again?

 

Not that I’m down on X-wing, I think I hit that Zen state with a few months of bomblet where if I go to a regional, I’m shooting for 3-3 and flying a list that seems like real x-wing and I enjoy flying it. Shoutout Phil GC, I’m pretty sure? Do the best you can with what you enjoy, as long as you have realistic expectations. 

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To clarify, don't bother with a 3rd ship, super Upsilons are freaking awesome.  Countermeasures is for scrubs, pay a point and get an Engine Upgrade.  Get your Rwbel Captive and whichever 2nd crew you want (maybe Intel Agent).  The shuttle title lets you hand out stress on top of Rebel Captive, and the giant gun cuts through Reinforce as well as anything.  Doesn't give a **** about Bomblets, either.

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5 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Harpoon missiles are the Primary Arc Weapons buff we always wanted.

solubility.gif

Am I alone when I say that those little water molecules look like some sorta video game character? Two short little legs on a roundish body? And it looks like they party when the salt is dropped in...

Ok... I maybe trying to avoid rational thought right now.

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3 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Am I alone when I say that those little water molecules look like some sorta video game character? Two short little legs on a roundish body? And it looks like they party when the salt is dropped in...

Well, at first glance it looked like some bizarre restaurant seating plan...

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19 hours ago, Biophysical said:

I posted this in the regional thread, but it seems like a Krayt topic, so I'm bringing it up here.  

Fact 1.)  We have at least two high profile instances in nationals level (or better) events where there was dial changing caught on camera.  

Assumption 1.)  Cheating is much less frequent on stream than it is off stream, because most people don't want to be caught cheating.

Assumption 2.)  Anyone cheating on stream is making that decision without considering being on stream, which means they either forget they're on stream, or the decision to cheat is not a significant decision to them and some part if them forgets that doing it on stream matters.  

Fact 2:  A substantial portion of the playtesters (to bring up this old gem) do not honor their NDA.  They're the sort of people for whom dishonesty in a game is an acceptable action.  The overlap between high level players and NDA breaking playtesters has not been established, but both are likely to be interested in playing in nationals/continentals/worlds.

Conclusion:  cheating is rampant in X-wing.  From what we've seen, I don't think it's possible to say how much cheating is happening, but it's got to be a lot. 

 

Oh, my reply apparently never went through earlier:

I assume cheating is pretty frequent, especially in the bottom/middle tables.  People should be less likely to cheat on stream than average, and it's not like we'll catch people cheating on stream 100% of the time.

 

Not sure I follow the link on breaking NDA and cheating? Both are bad things, but I don't see why they'd be correlated?

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3 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

It definitely happens.  At Nationals I was paired up with a player who "tested" my observation and knowledge on a couple of occassions - removing a weapons disabled token from the board while I was moving my ships, trying to drop more bombs than they had equipped, then asking if I was going to drop so they could take a 100-0 win (er, no).  I picked up on it, so it didn't make any difference to the game result in the long run but I can't help but wonder how many times they might have tried (and got away with it) in other rounds.

Which nationals was this?

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2 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Not sure I follow the link on breaking NDA and cheating? Both are bad things, but I don't see why they'd be correlated?

The correlation is that people are jerks. If they are willing to bend morals and 'cheat' on a signed NDA, I doubt that cheating during the game is much a stretch... That said, one does not imply the other, so these different forms of cheating can be mutually exclusive.

4 minutes ago, Brunas said:

I assume cheating is pretty frequent, especially in the bottom/middle tables.

Mid-tables, I'd suspect. Lot of the low tables are people who are there to have fun since if they really were only there to achieve wins they would have dropped. Besides, a lot of dice issues plague the low tables, and the dice are the true enemy.

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8 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

The correlation is that people are jerks. If they are willing to bend morals and 'cheat' on a signed NDA, I doubt that cheating during the game is much a stretch... That said, one does not imply the other, so these different forms of cheating can be mutually exclusive.

Mid-tables, I'd suspect. Lot of the low tables are people who are there to have fun since if they really were only there to achieve wins they would have dropped. Besides, a lot of dice issues plague the low tables, and the dice are the true enemy.

Bottom Tables for the Win!  The most wholesome X-wing!

 

On a side note, I make it a personal rule that if I ever bump something while measuring, every ruling goes against me.  for example, If I am measuring arc on my ship and I bump it, I don't have arc, even if I did previously  We then move it back to where we both agree.  It seems fair.

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1 hour ago, Biophysical said:

To clarify, don't bother with a 3rd ship, super Upsilons are freaking awesome.  Countermeasures is for scrubs, pay a point and get an Engine Upgrade.  Get your Rwbel Captive and whichever 2nd crew you want (maybe Intel Agent).  The shuttle title lets you hand out stress on top of Rebel Captive, and the giant gun cuts through Reinforce as well as anything.  Doesn't give a **** about Bomblets, either.

Fat Upsilons can be legit in the hands of an experienced player. I played a guy at the 3-0 table at Worlds running fat Kyloshuttle and Echo. Almost got my butt kicked. The shuttle was kinda jank: LW, Sensor Jammer, Palp, PA, Hyperwave, Engine, title. I might try something similar with Stridan.

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Just now, defkhan1 said:

Fat Upsilons can be legit in the hands of an experienced player. I played a guy at the 3-0 table at Worlds running fat Kyloshuttle and Echo. Almost got my butt kicked. The shuttle was kinda jank: LW, Sensor Jammer, Palp, PA, Hyperwave, Engine, title. I might try something similar with Stridan.

You haven't lived until you've donut holed Dash with PS8 Kylo.  It's one of the most amazing things in the world.  Emperor is obviously strong, but against low ship count lists, that Rebel Captive has been stunningly good for me.  The ability to have a move anywhere between stop and 3-bank + boost is great for delaying or forcing an engagement.

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10 minutes ago, RunnerAZ said:

Nope. Nope. Nope. At low tables, people cheat. I've been in the store kit basement. The cheat is real. 

They need to cheat better. Clearly it isn't working. :D

I wouldn't imply that there isn't any cheating at low tables, just as much as I wouldn't imply top tables are 100% clean either. Then again, there is more players that actually don't know how to play the game at the lower tables. When I show up with a troll list at a major event and end up on the bottom tables (where I'd belong for trolling...) I tend to finish the day against somebody that really has no idea how some basic rules work. Perhaps, though, I'm given 'people' too much credit once more and have mistaken cheating for ignorance.

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1 hour ago, Brunas said:

Oh, my reply apparently never went through earlier:

I assume cheating is pretty frequent, especially in the bottom/middle tables.  People should be less likely to cheat on stream than average, and it's not like we'll catch people cheating on stream 100% of the time.

 

Not sure I follow the link on breaking NDA and cheating? Both are bad things, but I don't see why they'd be correlated?

That's pretty much what I said in my post.  We can't establish correlation, but both are practicing dishonesty to gain advantage in a freaking game.

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Sorry to spam, but there's the list I've been jabbering about: 

Kylo Silencer, Lone Wolf or PTL, Advanced Sensors, Advanced Optics, Autothrusters, Title = 46/47

Major Stridan, FCS, Rebel Captive, Intel Agent, Pattern Analyzer, Advanced Optics, Engine Upgrade, Title = 48

The bid might be too big, but it does give Kylo a nice end-game cushion.  It's too bad he can't take a missile. 

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Because I'm that guy now: 

I think quad FAA Rebels can hang with Miranda if 1-2 are BTLA4s with Ion Cannon.  Yeah, she's fast and can get away, but can definitely be hunted down and/or blocked effectively by FAA.  If she's just fleeing, then there's no shots anyway, and chasing her woth a Y-wing is a good expenditure of resources.  

I've got two wins against Dash/Miranda with Double Ion Ys/ Double Blue Novices using these tactics.

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