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2 minutes ago, Wiredin said:

Do I understand this right... I'm flying Luke/Kanan/Ezra. Only one of them can regen a force token at the start of round?

I believe that's what they said. Because the force on those people says "+1", not "1". So you store the force tokens on the pilot card, not the crew card. The arrow indicates that your force will recharge, but nothing recharges at a rate different than one charge per turn. Basically, the upward arrows on all three cards are superfluous in that build because your Force is already recharging. 

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Just now, mightynute said:

I think they meant "on board the ship". 

If I have Kanan with Ezra crew, I only regenerate one Force token per round.
If I have Kanan with RsD2 crew, I regenerate one Force token per round.
If I have Here with Ezra crew, I regenerate one Force token per round.

that makes more sense 

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Just now, Kieransi said:

I believe that's what they said. Because the force on those people says "+1", not "1". So you store the force tokens on the pilot card, not the crew card. The arrow indicates that your force will recharge, but nothing recharges at a rate different than one charge per turn. Basically, the upward arrows on all three cards are superfluous in that build because your Force is already recharging. 

sorry, I meant that as in Luke pilot/Ezra pilot/Kanan pilot. but if it's per ship with upgrades that makes sense (Kanan with Ezra crew)

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Just now, Kieransi said:

Yeah, sorry, I said "on board", not "on the board", so I meant "onboard the ship". I can see how that was confusing

nope, I just didn't read. common issue with forum users. 

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1 minute ago, Makaze said:

The fact that red dice were generally toned down but the Ghost kept its 4 die primary combined with the mere idea of 42 reinforced health that makes me feel like a cost reduction is unlikely.

You have to consider this too:

https://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Rebel Alliance&d=v4!s!279:-1,-1,-1,-1:-1:-1:;279:-1,-1,-1,-1:-1:-1:;279:-1,-1,-1,-1:-1:-1:;279:-1,-1,-1,-1:-1:-1:&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

That's 48 health, with turrets and an evade die. And it's completely horrifically bad. You would probably never win a game. Or this:

https://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Rebel Alliance&d=v4!s!142:-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,24,-1:-1:-1:;142:-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,24,-1:-1:-1:;142:-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,24,-1:-1:-1:;142:-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,24,-1:-1:-1:&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

Or this:

https://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v4!s!56:-1,-1,-1,-1:-1:3:;56:-1,-1,-1,-1:-1:3:;56:-1,-1,-1,-1:-1:3:;56:-1,-1,-1,-1:-1:3:&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

Or this:

https://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Scum and Villainy&d=v4!s!134:-1,-1,-1,-1,38,202:-1:-1:;134:-1,-1,-1,-1,38,202:-1:-1:;134:-1,-1,-1,-1,38,202:-1:-1:&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

Like, hitpoint spam is a legitimate tactic, and definitely part of the game. It's also usually not good. I think two TIE Defenders absolutely murder three Ghosts in 2.0. I'd like to get a chance to proxy it though. Maybe I will, and I'll report back and let you know what I find.

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9 minutes ago, Makaze said:

The fact that red dice were generally toned down but the Ghost kept its 4 die primary combined with the mere idea of 42 reinforced health that makes me feel like a cost reduction is unlikely.

Reinforce alone makes it seem like it won't go down enough to take 3 hulls in 200 points.

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15 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Reinforce alone makes it seem like it won't go down enough to take 3 hulls in 200 points.

I think you guys are all probably right. I just basically almost never fly lists that aren't three or more identical generics, so I got my hopes up for triple Ghosts.

I'm willing to bet 2.0 releases as an entirely aces-dominated meta, which, although not my favorite, is still fine. Nice for the fat turrety freighters to be underpowered for a change. 

 

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17 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

Like, hitpoint spam is a legitimate tactic, and definitely part of the game. It's also usually not good. I think two TIE Defenders absolutely murder three Ghosts in 2.0. I'd like to get a chance to proxy it though. Maybe I will, and I'll report back and let you know what I find.

Hitpoint spam alone isn't sufficient. But hitpoint spam combined with something else like say... reinforce, 4 die primary, and a 4K...

Most of the examples above are just about maximizing hitpoints and are awful in every other way (especially in 1.0 where 2 die primaries are pointless). Whereas the Ghost in 2.0 still has some quite attractive built in qualities behind all that health

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2 minutes ago, Makaze said:

Hitpoint spam alone isn't sufficient. But hitpoint spam combined with something else like say... reinforce, 4 die primary, and a 4K...

Most of the examples above are just about maximizing hitpoints and are awful in every other way (especially in 1.0 where 2 die primaries are pointless). Whereas the Ghost in 2.0 still has some quite attractive built in qualities behind all that health

One thing to note: the Ghost doesn't get any dice mods if it reinforces, and it can't reinforce if it 4Ks or tried to actually modify its dice. So Ghost spam probably isn't all that great compared to other hitpoint spam lists in 2.0, many of which also got the same attractive benefits added to them. 

But yeah, like I said in the post above yours, I am biased so you guys are probably right.

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On the notes of Triple Ghost- i sure ******* hope not. That sounds miserable to play with/against.

 

Also the Devs said that the Ghost and 2400 kept their 4 die primary since it would be a cornerstone of a list if taken- I would guess that they don't get a points drop. ****, the base chassis didn't get nerfed too bad- Turrets did.

Also someone get Juggler in here- what jousting % value does a 3 ghost list that costs 200 have? What if you add FCS?

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2 hours ago, Kieransi said:

I think they clarified that no matter how many regenning Force users are on board, only one of them regens per turn. Still good though.

What I'm saying is that the fair price for the Lothal Rebel might be in the low 60s now

Ah I wasn't aware of that part of force token Regen. Although Maul + Ezra ability alone along with starting at 4 Force tokens still seems solid. 

Also to your point of how cheap a Lothal could be, I don't think it will go down much if at all. There's still the upgrade slots it likely has as strong combinations along with the 4 attack dice. 

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As the collective Luke Gunner freak out began to subside there's been a steadily increasing level of concern for Supernatural Reflexes (Luke and Vader mostly).  

This raises two questions:

1.)  At what points cost does the general angst subside?

2.)  What are the solid counters to Supernatural Reflexes? 

 

There's a comment I've heard circulating that boils down to "if it's as good as a small ship, it costs that much as well".  That suggests SA is in the 20 point + range, right?  If it's 20 points, is the concern level high?  It feels kind of like Luke Gunner in that it adds this hugely responsive ability to an already powerful ship (albeit with a bit more counterplay).

If it's not a very expensive card, what do you do about it?  One solution is to take an ace that can deny the S.A. carrier some information.  Wedge and Fel should be cheaper than Luke and Vader, which should allow a bid against Vader.  While these ships may still have trouble drawing a bead on Vader, they do get some repositioning against him, and should be able to get some shots.  Considering he lacks an Evade, single shots should be able to push damage through.  

Any thoughts?

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Sloane swarms should have solid tools deal with Supernatural Aces. The combination of covering those key supernatural action positions through multiple ships with reposition, but also multiple arcs makes it harder to dodge. Even if the shots don't do damage, if you make them spend force tokens to dodge shots, it limits their resources next round. Although Luke is the the least susceptible to this because of his ability. That's why I'd lean towards Strikers for the Sloane swarm to naturally have 3 dice primary which can help push through damage on Luke since he only has 2 defense. 

All on top of that Sloane causing stress will limit the actual usage of the upgrade card itself. Add on Vader crew to the Sloane Lambda shuttle and those force aces will have another area to be scared about. 

Edited by RStan

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24 minutes ago, RStan said:

Sloane swarms should have solid tools deal with Supernatural Aces. The combination of covering those key supernatural action positions through multiple ships with reposition, but also multiple arcs makes it harder to dodge. Even if the shots don't do damage, if you make them spend force tokens to dodge shots, it limits their resources next round. Although Luke is the the least susceptible to this because of his ability. That's why I'd lean towards Strikers for the Sloane swarm to naturally have 3 dice primary which can help push through damage on Luke since he only has 2 defense. 

All on top of that Sloane causing stress will limit the actual usage of the upgrade card itself. Add on Vader crew to the Sloane Lambda shuttle and those force aces will have another area to be scared about. 

Good point.  Oh man, I wonder if the 4 cheapest strikers and Sloane in a Reaper fit.

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4 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Good point.  Oh man, I wonder if the 4 cheapest strikers and Sloane in a Reaper fit.

It will and it will be awesome. 

49 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

This raises two questions:

1.)  At what points cost does the general angst subside?

2.)  What are the solid counters to Supernatural Reflexes? 

1.) I have no idea. Angst is not based on something as logical as point value. 

2.) Counters: 

  • Init 6 with a healthy bid 
  • Something else thats also Super
  • A pile of Stress tokens
  • A pile of Jam tokens  
  • Blocking Barrel Roll or Boost Options with mess of ships 
  • Ion  
  • Covering a wide area with many ships
  • A large quantity of bombs 
  • Semi-skeptical that a large # of players will even be capable of abusing it which should serve as a built in counter. 
Edited by Boom Owl

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45 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

1.)  At what points cost does the general angst subside?

2.)  What are the solid counters to Supernatural Reflexes? 

 

Easy question first... Forum angst never subsides. It merely takes a moment to breathe in before the shouts continue.

Secondly... Not answered is smart net coverage with multiple ships works too... 

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40 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Good point.  Oh man, I wonder if the 4 cheapest strikers and Sloane in a Reaper fit.

I'm kind counting on 4 base Strikers to fit with that although I'm hoping it's a Lambda instead of a Reaper as long as Vader crew also fits. Although another sneaky good crew could still be Grand Inquisitor. If Vader crew is more expensive than Grand Inquisitor then plugging him in allows coordinating to resposition after a ship uses Supernatural Reflexes which can provide blocks and pre counter move arc dodging. 

Actually now thinking about it overall, Grand Inquisitor has an interesting dynamic against the supernatural aces for any other Imperial ship that doesn't have access to Supernatural Reflexes. Most of the power of Supernatural Reflexes is the ability to use boost or barrel roll before moving. If the dial and one of the repositions is already known by the Grand Inquisitor crew player, it allows an easier opportunity to utilize your own ships repositioning to block or maybe even dodge that ships arc. That combined with a type of swarm can allow for almost reactive blocking just like they have reactive reposition before moving.

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1 hour ago, Biophysical said:

2.)  What are the solid counters to Supernatural Reflexes? 

a endgame ship worth more than the super ace. 

i think if the super ace has to engage than his supernatural gets less good as its limited to barrel rolls. Vader cant afford the damage from a boost and Luke cant afford the reduced attack dice from having his foils closed. 

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Why are we talking about Luke/Vader here? The Grand Galactic Inquisitor (pilot) seem like the better chassis for supernatural since it includes boost, BR, a linked focus, and evade. Sure it's only I5 but the ability to achieve almost Kylo levels of repositioning or stack a focus/evade seems at least as good.

1 hour ago, RynoZero said:

a endgame ship worth more than the super ace.

The funny thing is the more supernatural costs the more that theoretical counter ship needs to cost as well. Kylo being expensive was a feature not a bug

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@Brunas I'm so sad you went spec ops the line when i wasn't on! I watched the endings of that game at least once a week along with the jackal tapes from farcry 2. "You're here because you wanted to be something you're not; a hero"

i know a while back we ran some polls on what people think supernatural will cost. Id be curious to see that poll rerun.

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